Have you been Born Again?

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: evident
but i think catholics are encouraged to have a "personal relationship with jc" still, but not in the same vein as the born agains do.

Catholics are nowhere encouraged to have a "personal realtionship with JC." As a Catholic, you do not pray to JC, you pray to God, who, by their explicit doctrine, is inextricably bound up in the inseperable mystery of the Holy Trinity -- for Catholics, you simply CANNOT separate any one form of God from the other two.

AGAIN, this "born again" and "the only way to salvation is through a personal relationship with JC" yahoo dogma is a deviant MINORITY interpretation of Christianity NOT supported by the overwhelming MAJORITY of Christians world-wide.

This dumbed down, cartoon-simplistic version is NOT supported or believed in by the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Church, the Episcopalian Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Lutheran Church, the Dutch Reformed Church, or the Congregationalist Church, to name but a few. :roll:

Btw, the Roman Catholic Church ALONE comprises over half of the Christians worldwide.

Hope this has helped.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
I was thinking Protestants, not Catholics or many other Christian sects.

Whatever you may now claim you were thinking, you said, "it is something we Christians believe."

I responded, correctly and factually, that you are WRONG, and that you do not get to speak for even most Christians, let alone ALL Christians, so please don't change the argument after you have been proven wrong.

Finally, please consider the LONG LIST of Protestant sects who do NOT believe what you believe, among them:

Anglican
Presbyterian
Lutheran
Methodists
Quakers
Congregationalists
The Dutch Reformed Church (my church was established by this American protestant "sect")

Admit it, please, even your "revised after being proven wrong" assertion simply does not hold water.

 

[hellokeith]

Catholicism is yet another corrupted religion, something which Jesus fought very hard. More than anyone else, Jesus over and over criticized and exposed the corrupt religious leaders for their false teachings and lack of understanding God's love. Attributing the acts of the Catholic church to Jesus or true Christianity is a terrible mistake. A cursory reading of Jesus' words in pretty much any translation (including the Catholic) of the New Testament makes it apparently obvious that religion is no better than philosophy.. without a personal relationship with God, there can be no change from within.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
I was thinking Protestants, not Catholics or many other Christian sects.

Admit it, please, even your "revised after being proven wrong" assertion simply does not hold water.

admit it, youre wasting time with this argument

catholics think protestants are crazy, protestants think catholics are evil, and more than half the world thinks both of you are wrong anyway.

i dont believe in any of it, but i was raised protestant....believe me, youre not going to get a protestant to accept anything positive about the catholic majority. we get brainwashed to thinking catholics are wrong and evil and hellbound.

its really pretty messed up...but i think some of that goes for both sides (or, hell, any religion to some degree)

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Just because he is saved, is a missionary, or a pastor does not make him a religious whack job. Think of it this way, it is something we Christians believe and he cares about people and wants you to be saved... or born again.

Believing in being "born again" or "having a personal relationship with Jesus Leroy Christ", who, btw, was a Jew, is NOT something most Chrisitians worldwide believe in at all, it is the primitive, bottom feeding, dog and pony show, dumbed down version of Christianity.

I know Jesus is a Jew... that's common knowledge. Being "born again" is simply having believing on and asking Jesus to save you from your sins.

I guess you're right, not all people who have the title "Christian" believe that. However, it is the most basic and only requirement to be saved and get to Heaven, according to the Bible.

Being a Christian simply means being Christ-like... and everyone has their own definition of what being Christ-like is, and that is an opinion typically formed from religion. I take my definition of Christianity from the Bible, if other people want to take their definition from man made rules and regulations (religion) then so be it.


If most Christians don't believe that (according to you), then what is it they believe?

I was raised Catholic, the original and still THE LARGEST group of Christians in the WORLD, and Catholics do not believe the dog and pony show version about "having a pesonal relationship" with Jesus Christ being the way you get into heaven.

The only way you can get into heaven as a Catholic is, first to be baptized and confirmed Catholic, and then to confess and atone for your sins to a priest at confession. Btw, confessing and atoning for your sins is also the only way to heaven for Anglicans and other long-established protestant (CHRISTIAN) sects as well, including ALL the Eastern Orthodox religions, so you really need to step out of your holy roller ghetto that all Christians are like you and take a look at the facts sometime soon.

Catholics, again, the LARGEST group of Christians in the WORLD, do not believe at all in a "personal relationship with JC", they believe in the mystery of the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but with the only personal relationship you have being that with your parish priest.

Did you really not know any of this?

I see you didn't comment on my Bible verse.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: hellokeith
Catholicism is yet another corrupted religion...

With this, I entirely agree. I left the Catholic Church (and Catholic school), never to return, at age 11.

Originally posted by: hellokeith
...without a personal relationship with God, there can be no change from within.

I can agree with what I believe to be the spirit of what you say, but not your actual words.

I don't believe there is a Joe God, living a One Heaven Place. Therefore you cannot have any personal relationship with . . . him?

Jesus spoke in parables, in metaphor, meant to illustrate deeper truths, and not to be taken literally, you know, fundamentally.

To my way of thinking, when Jesus said, "I am the way" he meant "live in the accepting and tolerant way that I do" and NOT "worship ME as yet another false idol or more modern substitute for a fatted calf."

We arrogant human-apes like to say that we were "created in the image of God." Is it not apparent that, instead, we created our "God" in the image of man? I mean, come on, an elder WHITE guy with a beard and a staff? How primitive is that?

So, OP, instead of "personal relationship with God" I would say I have a "private understanding of the divine."

I am comfortable with the fact that "the divine" may be beyond the puny earth-bound power of our words and concepts to fully describe.

I am content to Let the Mystery Be.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: xSauronx
catholics think protestants are crazy, protestants think catholics are evil, and more than half the world thinks both of you are wrong anyway.

I'm not Catholic. I haven't been Catholic since I was 11 years old.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: thepd7
I see you didn't comment on my Bible verse.

The verse you quoted is an English translation of the Latin translation of the Greek translation of the perhaps, original Aramaic version of the writings from a series of fallible human authors often writing well after the fact that all came from a group of Semitic tribes 4,000 years ago that purport to be the incontestable word of that concept, "God."

This is my comment.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: xSauronx
catholics think protestants are crazy, protestants think catholics are evil, and more than half the world thinks both of you are wrong anyway.

I'm not Catholic. I haven't been Catholic since I was 11 years old.

i see

personally, i was probably 22 or so before i really stopped even trying. id doubted many aspects of it as long as i can remember but didnt get out.

 

[pstylesss]

Perknose, I'm Baptist. My understanding is that all protestants believe the way to heaven is through Jesus, although many have other requirements or qualifications that go along with it. I don't know all religions that are considered protestant. Let me quantify it more, it's something we Baptists, evangelicals (maybe, I don't know) and other Christians who believe the same basic things as I do, believe.

That better? I apologize for causing you so much heartache.

 

[IGBT]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: IGBT
..doesn't catholicism conflict with the King James interpretion of the bible?

Uh, it may "conflict" with some holy roller's interpretation of the King James translation of the Bible, but please understand that the King James Bible was the "authorized version" of the Church of England, and that the Church of England does NOT believe nor teach that about being "born again" or that you get to heaven through some "personal relationship with Jesus H. Christ".

That is the deviant, dumbed-down revisionist interpretation adopted by our modern day fundies, it is their idiosyncratic take on the Bible.

Don't believe the FUD you are fed.

..what was in common useage prior to the King James version?? Many religious groups outside GB still use the King James version.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Perknose, I'm Baptist. My understanding is that all protestants believe the way to heaven is through Jesus, although many have other requirements or qualifications that go along with it. I don't know all religions that are considered protestant. Let me quantify it more, it's something we Baptists, evangelicals (maybe, I don't know) and other Christians who believe the same basic things as I do, believe.

That better? I apologize for causing you so much heartache.

Ha! No heartache, man. You have a moral and constitutional right to believe what you believe, just not the right to speak for all, or even most Christians. :thumbsup:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: IGBT

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: IGBT
..doesn't catholicism conflict with the King James interpretion of the bible?

Uh, it may "conflict" with some holy roller's interpretation of the King James translation of the Bible, but please understand that the King James Bible was the "authorized version" of the Church of England, and that the Church of England does NOT believe nor teach that about being "born again" or that you get to heaven through some "personal relationship with Jesus H. Christ".

That is the deviant, dumbed-down revisionist interpretation adopted by our modern day fundies, it is their idiosyncratic take on the Bible.

Don't believe the FUD you are fed.

..what was in common useage prior to the King James version?? Many religious groups outside GB still use the King James version.

The Latin Vulgate translation of the Catholic Church was the most common. The Gutenburg Bible was printed in the Vulgate translation.

The KJV wasn't even finished until 1611. It was commissioned by King James for the benefit of the Church of England. Those who used it or still use it tend to be groups related to England or the Anglican Church in some way. For example, the Anglican church was the official state church of the American colonies up until the Revolution, so many American churches maintained its use, and even expanded on many of its erroneous translations/related interpretations (Ussher Chronology or 'Young Earth Creationism', 'Born Again') during the Bible Belt Revival of the 1820s. This is why Christian fundamentalism in America revolves so heavily around these concepts, and why these interpretations are generally not shared with other Christian churches throughout the world.

And I didn't see it mentioned here, but the notion of being 'born again' comes entirely from John 3.

 

[theMan]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: theman

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Just because he is saved, is a missionary, or a pastor does not make him a religious whack job. Think of it this way, it is something we Christians believe and he cares about people and wants you to be saved... or born again.

Believing in being "born again" or "having a personal relationship with Jesus Leroy Christ", who, btw, was a Jew, is NOT something most Chrisitians worldwide believe in at all, it is the primitive, bottom feeding, dog and pony show, dumbed down version of Christianity.

I know Jesus is a Jew... that's common knowledge. Being "born again" is simply having believing on and asking Jesus to save you from your sins.

I guess you're right, not all people who have the title "Christian" believe that. However, it is the most basic and only requirement to be saved and get to Heaven, according to the Bible.

Being a Christian simply means being Christ-like... and everyone has their own definition of what being Christ-like is, and that is an opinion typically formed from religion. I take my definition of Christianity from the Bible, if other people want to take their definition from man made rules and regulations (religion) then so be it.


If most Christians don't believe that (according to you), then what is it they believe?

i don't really understand how Jesus was a Jew. if he was god, why did he have a religion? was he just pretending?

sorry, i have absolutely no understanding of christianity... but i am taking a class in it next year at college. woot.

Jews follow Old Testament law. To have a walk with God you had to follow His laws, Jesus still wanted a walk with His Father, so he followed the Old Testament laws. During His life though, He did away with laws that were no longer needed (which is the reason the Jews hated him and crucified Him), and after His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, most of those laws were no longer needed.

Christian's that have an understanding of the Bible will not hate the Jews like you would think they would or should. The Jews, or Israelites, are God's chosen people and because of that they should inherit our respect. They were only fulfilling the prophecy that was required for Gentiles (non-Jews) to get to Heaven.

so Jews are nothing but a tool in God's master plan?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Btw, confessing and atoning for your sins is also the only way to heaven for Anglicans

Not true. While Anglican theology allows for Confession to a priest, it is not considered a requirement of the religion. Anglicans recognise only Baptism and Communion as Sacraments required by Scripture. The remaining 5 are, "Commonly called Sacraments that are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel".

In Anglican tradition, the general confession that is said during Mass is sufficient and no further individual confession is necessary, though a mechanism for such individual confession is provided should a congregant choose to partake of it.

ZV

 

[hellokeith]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Ha! No heartache, man. You have a moral and constitutional right to believe what you believe, just not the right to speak for all, or even most Christians.

With this I will have to disagree. If he wants to publicly and vocally speak his beliefs and make incorrect stereotypes, he most certainly has that right, the same that you do, and the same that I do, though personally I try to avoid stereotypes as much as possible. If he or you or I want to engage the OP of this thread in a discussion of spiritual, religious, philosophical, and scientific matters at the OP's workplace, we all have that right, and the OP has the right (and perhaps good reason) to decline the discussion.

What is sad is people who are not man enough to say what they think to people they would disagree who are speaking.

I have no trouble whatsoever respectfully discussing out loud and disagreeing out loud with most of what door-to-door jehova witness people say.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: theman

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: theman

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Just because he is saved, is a missionary, or a pastor does not make him a religious whack job. Think of it this way, it is something we Christians believe and he cares about people and wants you to be saved... or born again.

Believing in being "born again" or "having a personal relationship with Jesus Leroy Christ", who, btw, was a Jew, is NOT something most Chrisitians worldwide believe in at all, it is the primitive, bottom feeding, dog and pony show, dumbed down version of Christianity.

I know Jesus is a Jew... that's common knowledge. Being "born again" is simply having believing on and asking Jesus to save you from your sins.

I guess you're right, not all people who have the title "Christian" believe that. However, it is the most basic and only requirement to be saved and get to Heaven, according to the Bible.

Being a Christian simply means being Christ-like... and everyone has their own definition of what being Christ-like is, and that is an opinion typically formed from religion. I take my definition of Christianity from the Bible, if other people want to take their definition from man made rules and regulations (religion) then so be it.


If most Christians don't believe that (according to you), then what is it they believe?

i don't really understand how Jesus was a Jew. if he was god, why did he have a religion? was he just pretending?

sorry, i have absolutely no understanding of christianity... but i am taking a class in it next year at college. woot.

Jews follow Old Testament law. To have a walk with God you had to follow His laws, Jesus still wanted a walk with His Father, so he followed the Old Testament laws. During His life though, He did away with laws that were no longer needed (which is the reason the Jews hated him and crucified Him), and after His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, most of those laws were no longer needed.

Christian's that have an understanding of the Bible will not hate the Jews like you would think they would or should. The Jews, or Israelites, are God's chosen people and because of that they should inherit our respect. They were only fulfilling the prophecy that was required for Gentiles (non-Jews) to get to Heaven.

so Jews are nothing but a tool in God's master plan?

I had no idea anyone could twist that to make it look bad. Everyone has a place in God's plan. However, free will means we can choose what we want. Not all Jewish people believe the same thing.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Jews. How about I twist it this way, if a Jew follows Old Testament law, then I am nothing more than an unclean Gentile to them.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: thepd7
I see you didn't comment on my Bible verse.

The verse you quoted is an English translation of the Latin translation of the Greek translation of the perhaps, original Aramaic version of the writings from a series of fallible human authors often writing well after the fact that all came from a group of Semitic tribes 4,000 years ago that purport to be the incontestable word of that concept, "God."

This is my comment.

Actually, the Gospel of John is believed to have been originally written in Greek, and is far and away the least historically accurate of the 4 Gospels. Which is why scholars separate it from the 3 synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
In particular, it also advocates Greek gnostic view of early Christianity, as opposed to the 1st century Jewish traditions of the other Gospels.

However, it must be understood that the modern American Christian concept of being 'born again' is a creation of the 1820's Bible Belt Revivals.
In proper context with John 3, Jesus told the Pharisee Nicodemus that he needed to be 'born again,' because Nicodemus believed that his salvation was pre-determined because he was born of the seed of Abraham. Jesus was explaining to Nicodemus that that wasn't enough. That salvation was not dependent on one's physical birth, but on one's spiritual understanding.

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: between

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: CKent
You work at a retail store, it's not as though you'd be giving up anything stellar if you moved to a civilized part of the nation.

Well I actually run the retail store. Over the last 2 years I've pulled it back from the brink of closing and I'm very interested in its continued success. Stuff like this doesn't exactly make me happy, but I'll deal with it somehow. If only other people would help me by minding their own business...

I wonder if the local people would boycott your store if it became widely known in the community that you are an atheist/ freethinker

Hard to tell. It's easy to imagine myself beset from all sides by fundamentalist lunatics, but that's not the case. People have surprised me before with their tolerance, but I can't imagine that it would be good for business. Things like this tend to get embellished as they travel the grapevine. Person number one finds out I'm an agnostic, somewhere along the line someone doesn't know what an agnostic is so they call me an atheist, someone else thinks atheist is synonymous with Satanist and one day I get a sign posted to my door saying "Git ort av towne ye derty devel wurshperr"!

Well, in all fairness, I'm an Atheist and I don't know what an Agnostic is. So I'd call you an Atheist too.

 

[SirStev0]

no

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: theman

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: theman

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ
Just because he is saved, is a missionary, or a pastor does not make him a religious whack job. Think of it this way, it is something we Christians believe and he cares about people and wants you to be saved... or born again.

Believing in being "born again" or "having a personal relationship with Jesus Leroy Christ", who, btw, was a Jew, is NOT something most Chrisitians worldwide believe in at all, it is the primitive, bottom feeding, dog and pony show, dumbed down version of Christianity.

I know Jesus is a Jew... that's common knowledge. Being "born again" is simply having believing on and asking Jesus to save you from your sins.

I guess you're right, not all people who have the title "Christian" believe that. However, it is the most basic and only requirement to be saved and get to Heaven, according to the Bible.

Being a Christian simply means being Christ-like... and everyone has their own definition of what being Christ-like is, and that is an opinion typically formed from religion. I take my definition of Christianity from the Bible, if other people want to take their definition from man made rules and regulations (religion) then so be it.


If most Christians don't believe that (according to you), then what is it they believe?

i don't really understand how Jesus was a Jew. if he was god, why did he have a religion? was he just pretending?

sorry, i have absolutely no understanding of christianity... but i am taking a class in it next year at college. woot.

Jews follow Old Testament law. To have a walk with God you had to follow His laws, Jesus still wanted a walk with His Father, so he followed the Old Testament laws. During His life though, He did away with laws that were no longer needed (which is the reason the Jews hated him and crucified Him), and after His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension, most of those laws were no longer needed.

Christian's that have an understanding of the Bible will not hate the Jews like you would think they would or should. The Jews, or Israelites, are God's chosen people and because of that they should inherit our respect. They were only fulfilling the prophecy that was required for Gentiles (non-Jews) to get to Heaven.

so Jews are nothing but a tool in God's master plan?

I had no idea anyone could twist that to make it look bad. Everyone has a place in God's plan. However, free will means we can choose what we want. Not all Jewish people believe the same thing.

I have nothing but the highest respect for Jews. How about I twist it this way, if a Jew follows Old Testament law, then I am nothing more than an unclean Gentile to them.

Well they're both true according to your respective beliefs. It's not twisting to say so, just because you'd rather phrase it in a nicer way.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Well, in all fairness, I'm an Atheist and I don't know what an Agnostic is. So I'd call you an Atheist too.

Atheist: "There is absolutely no god(s). It is impossible for there to be god(s)."

Agnostic: "There is no proof for god(s), however, it is logically impossible to prove non-existence, therefore the most that can be said is that there is no conclusive evidence to support the existence of god(s). While it is technically possible for god(s) to exist, I do not take a position on the subject."

ZV

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Well, in all fairness, I'm an Atheist and I don't know what an Agnostic is. So I'd call you an Atheist too.

Atheist: "There is absolutely no god(s). It is impossible for there to be god(s)."

Agnostic: "There is no proof for god(s), however, it is logically impossible to prove non-existence, therefore the most that can be said is that there is no conclusive evidence to support the existence of god(s). While it is technically possible for god(s) to exist, I do not take a position on the subject."

ZV

Well if you go strictly by that definition, then it's technically impossible for anyone to be an atheist, what with quantum uncertainty this-and-that.
Just like it's "possible" for dragons to pop out of the LHC <-- something which I consider to be far more likely than the existence of God/Allah/Whatever.

 

[sandorski]

When Jesus said, "You must be born again" it, like much of what he said, is a metaphor, not an Event or Experience. It is similar to John the Baptists call to "Repent". Meaning, you must change your ways.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
Well, in all fairness, I'm an Atheist and I don't know what an Agnostic is. So I'd call you an Atheist too.

Atheist: "There is absolutely no god(s). It is impossible for there to be god(s)."

Agnostic: "There is no proof for god(s), however, it is logically impossible to prove non-existence, therefore the most that can be said is that there is no conclusive evidence to support the existence of god(s). While it is technically possible for god(s) to exist, I do not take a position on the subject."

ZV

Well if you go strictly by that definition, then it's technically impossible for anyone to be an atheist, what with quantum uncertainty this-and-that.
Just like it's "possible" for dragons to pop out of the LHC <-- something which I consider to be far more likely than the existence of God/Allah/Whatever.

++ to this.

The strict definition of atheist is used way too often to marginalize atheists and to make them seem like nutcases. Sure, there are some nutcase atheists out there, but most aren't. I don't believe in God. I don't think anyone can prove or disprove his existence, but I don't call myself agnostic because it implies that I'm undecided on the issue. I'm not. I've decided that the chances for God existing (at least in one of the forms as presented in a major religion) are so tiny that they're not worth considering.

Does that make me an atheist or an agnostic? I don't go around saying "God is 100% certain to not exist." I just say, "I don't believe in God because it's extremely unlikely that he exists." Like 99.999% certain. So does that 0.001% chance of God existing make me an agnostic?