Have to laugh: GM's Archaic Assembly Line...

[InfinitySquared]

Overfill is a huge problem, yes.

 

[Bignate603]

Sure, and using a map is better than sat nav, and horses are much better than cars, and flying will never catch on, and that stupid paper stuff, what are they thinking?! Don't even get me started on 'books'. :whiste:

Each of those things you mentioned added significant usefulness. Basically, the user was now able to do something that was previously either impossible or much harder. Getting rid of dipsticks in favor of an electronic level sensor does not really provide any significant improvement to the user but it does increase complexity. More complexity means more cost and a higher likelihood that something will break over the lifetime of the car.

The best solutions only introduce complexity when there is no other way to achieve the goal. Complexity for complexity's sake is detrimental to the end user.

 

[pcgeek11]

Isn't over-engineer in this context really a kind way of saying badly engineer? A complex approach may solve a problem but if the same problem can be solved simply with a more reliable approach--as if finally figuring out the combination to a lock and everything comes into perspective--that is the better way to do it.

Yes it is. We have automated assembly machines where they have installed servo drives to operate where a simple cheap easily maintained air cylinder would do the trick. It drives me insane!

 

[justfrank]

Overfill is a huge problem, yes.

Really, since when? I've never seen that to be a problem ever and I've been in the car bus. for over 34 yrs now.

 

[mpo]

Where they build the Cadillacs in that same facility it doesn't look anything like the pics of where they do the Volt. The Cadillac assembly area looks just as modern as any of the pics in of the VW and BMW in the OP.

The Cadillacs and Volts are built on the same line. Watch the video I posted above starting ~40 seconds in. Both cars are mixed together in several portions of the assembly line.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3dZfvTLbBE#t=0m38s

 

[disappoint]

Ultimate Factories.

Yeah, I've seen those shows too and the Corvette (ZR1 IIRC) assembly line looked pitiful compared to every other car manufacturer they've showcased and they showcased Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes, and even Ducati. The Ferrari factory is state of the art.

The factory may be state of the art, but the transmission in the car only lasts about 20,000 miles. You'd think they could do better than that. I mean I know the car being high performance is pushing everything to the limit, but they can't make it more reliable than that?

Corvette ZR1 can keep up with most Ferraris but it's transmission won't grenade at 20,000 miles. What does that say about Ferrari engineering vs. GM?

Ferrari is made to go fast and sound good (8000 rpm) but the Corvette ZR1 is made to be fast and reliable as well. Doesn't sound half bad either just not as good as a Ferrari.

 

[wirednuts]

No wonder we can't build cars for shit!

with a foreign boss WE CAN!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysVSe8ottJU

 

[Squisher]

The Cadillacs and Volts are built on the same line. Watch the video I posted above starting ~40 seconds in. Both cars are mixed together in several portions of the assembly line.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3dZfvTLbBE#t=0m38s

When you get to the latter stages of the assembly is what I saw and you can see where nearer the end the line is flush to the ground. It looks a whole lot cleaner too. When I took classes there, the classrooms were off the cafeteria which is about 3/4 of the way back and up a set of escalators into the building I was in. The whole way back to there the place was well lit, clean, and uncluttered.

I've been in a lot of factories. The two cleanest places I've ever been in was that assembly plant and the Tech Center in Warren, MI.

 

[adlep]

1. Audi == Not that reliable.
2. VW == Not that reliable.
3. BMW == Not that reliable.

Don't get me wrong - these are fine cars, but once something goes wrong in them, you gotta pony up the wazoo.

 

[ussfletcher]

I was an intern at the BMW plant in Spartanburg, SC. I have toured a plant in Michigan, they are extremely similar (nearly all the same equipment and technology). The exception would be that BMW keeps things 'cleaner'.

 

[styrafoam]

Ahhhh, the Phaeton is expensive because it's assembled on a Pergo floor! Good for VW, spending the cap ex on important stuff. Sucks that GM is too dense to know that they need to cover their racking in some sort of wood panel or tapestry or something.

 

[BUTCH1]

I don't find the comparison very relevant I bet you can find a beautiful picture of a lamborghini production line and yet I bet you that GM has tweaked their manufacturing tighter than a niche manufacturer like lamborghini.

IIRC Lambo's are all hand-built, prolly no assembly line to speak of..

 

[IcePickFreak]

You kidding me? It's because in America people care about the badges. In fact, the Phaeton is better than probably 95% of "luxury branded" cars. The VW Phaeton is a bargain because it is basically a Bentley Continental GT/Flying Spur with VW badges. So your getting a 150k+ car for 80k.

http://jalopnik.com/254379/jalopnik-fantasy-garage-volkswagen-phaeton-w12

http://video.ultimatestreet.com/video/13953/the-new-volkswagen-phaeton (video of Top Gear review)

It still looks like a generic "Car_TypeA." I did have to laugh though at Clarkson showing off the panel that covers up the dash vents.. umm don't they have floor vents in cars in Europe? My POS Pontiac on auto mode keeps the Heat/AC on the floor vents til it can kick the fan down, then it'll push some air out of the dash vents.

Each of those things you mentioned added significant usefulness. Basically, the user was now able to do something that was previously either impossible or much harder. Getting rid of dipsticks in favor of an electronic level sensor does not really provide any significant improvement to the user but it does increase complexity. More complexity means more cost and a higher likelihood that something will break over the lifetime of the car.

The best solutions only introduce complexity when there is no other way to achieve the goal. Complexity for complexity's sake is detrimental to the end user.

I'm sure a big percentage of their customer base already brings their car in for dealer service even if they just need to air up the tires, but this probably ensures more people come in to the dealer for maintenance. I call it Sales Engineering.

 

[Q]

Ever been to the BMW Planet in SC? Looks pretty much like the GM one in the OP. I don't see what the 'laugh' is.

 

[DirthNader]

I used to work as an engineer for GM. I had fun jobs at the Milford proving grounds and working on pre-production stuff in the small shops, but I put my time in with manufacturing support at Spring Hill, Pontiac, and Flint.

Even I think the picture of the Volt in the OP is a bit embarassing. Although I think it's the angle, highlighting the plant columns / ceiling.

And yes, the work environment does affect the finished product. There are psychological aspects to it, and there are also pratical implications.

 

[Zargon]

Each of those things you mentioned added significant usefulness. Basically, the user was now able to do something that was previously either impossible or much harder. Getting rid of dipsticks in favor of an electronic level sensor does not really provide any significant improvement to the user but it does increase complexity. More complexity means more cost and a higher likelihood that something will break over the lifetime of the car.

The best solutions only introduce complexity when there is no other way to achieve the goal. Complexity for complexity's sake is detrimental to the end user.

yes but most people wont ever check their own oil so the dipstick is mostly useless

its sad but rather true

 

[exar333]

OP is a troll.

 

[GTaudiophile]

All of the foreign manufacturers seem to employ skilled and knowledgeable technicians. The american manufacturers look they just went to the metro area, grabbed a bunch of people from the bus hub, and gave them a wrench.

You are probably close to the truth.

I know in Germany at least, pupils are tracked into either pre-University or pre-vocational high schools. Upon graduating the latter, they then apply for apprenticeships (at the likes of BMW, etc.) where they learn the trade before being hired on. This vocational education starts at around age 10 and ends by around 25. Fifteen years of training should be good for something.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

yes but most people wont ever check their own oil so the dipstick is mostly useless

its sad but rather true

I don't see the reason why this is a bad thing, my car tells me when its low and exactly how much I need to add.

iDrive will even pull up autoparts stores or the closest dealer afterwards. One less thing that I have to do everyday gives more free time (that I have very little of anyway) to do something better with....like drive

 

[GTaudiophile]

I used to work as an engineer for GM. I had fun jobs at the Milford proving grounds and working on pre-production stuff in the small shops, but I put my time in with manufacturing support at Spring Hill, Pontiac, and Flint.

Even I think the picture of the Volt in the OP is a bit embarrassing. Although I think it's the angle, highlighting the plant columns / ceiling.

And yes, the work environment does affect the finished product. There are psychological aspects to it, and there are also pratical implications.

Thank you for making my point more eloquently!

And let's not even get started on the fact that the German plants are largely (if not completely) sustainable: renewable-energy powered, environmentally-safe painting processes, high use of recycled components, etc.

Re: Dresden VW Factory: Yes, I know it is a showcase money loser BUT do you all know the level of R&D it took to automate that place? Those wood floors are lined with magnets that allow trays of parts and tools to be tailored and delivered automatically to each specific car. The magnets in the floors also provide all the power to run the tools and vehicle assembly platforms. Not to mention the "just-in-time" tram network that delivers car parts to the factory from throughout the city and region. Think of the jobs and technologies that were created just to facilitate all that?

There is just a greater degree of forethought! The German factories I have visited (Germany, SC) allow the car to raise/lower/rotate to allow workers easier and more comfortable access to do their jobs. Can the Volt line do that?

Meanwhile, BMW invests millions to create a factory that is tailored for workers that are aged 50 or older.

Do the GM plants afford this same level of modularity? Do they have this kind of forethought? I think not.

 

[GTaudiophile]

I would also like to echo Steve Jobs who believed that what something looks like on the inside is equally important to what people see on the outside. His father taught him that, so he worked tirelessly to make sure the inside of the Apple II, Mac, etc. looked as flawless as it could.

A similar principle applies to what I am trying to address here.

Shit is only going to be as good as what you put in it. And this also applies to the investment and attention to detail given to the environments in which people are expected to produce great things.

 

[Squisher]

You are probably close to the truth.

I know in Germany at least, pupils are tracked into either pre-University or pre-vocational high schools. Upon graduating the latter, they then apply for apprenticeships (at the likes of BMW, etc.) where they learn the trade before being hired on. This vocational education starts at around age 10 and ends by around 25. Fifteen years of training should be good for something.

Trade? Assembly line worker at BMW is a trade? 15 years to be an assembly line worker?

Boy, I learn something new everyday.

I worked in parts factories all my life and there is a wide span between what some workers are required to do and what others do. I have seen machine operators, specifically those making connecting rods and axles, that took at least a year to learn their jobs well. Yet, there are many jobs that I could show you in 15 minutes what to do and you'd be set for the next 30 years. The assembly lines I have seen didn't take very long at all to learn, maybe a week or a month and that's not so much to learn the actual motions of the job, but how to confront issues that arise on the job. As for the actual, put this seat in this car and bolt it down would probably take an hour and I'm being generous.

Now, I will say that automation has changed the number of skilled vs. non-skilled with the latter declining. An average apprenticeship for skilled labor takes 4 years of both schooling and on the job training with the on the job training being a structured schedule so that the apprentice sees all aspects of the job.

 

[Zargon]

I don't see the reason why this is a bad thing, my car tells me when its low and exactly how much I need to add.

iDrive will even pull up autoparts stores or the closest dealer afterwards. One less thing that I have to do everyday gives more free time (that I have very little of anyway) to do something better with....like drive

while its a nice FEATURE I dont think it should be the only way to check as a dipstick will basically never fail, while the sensor could. Dipsticks cost PENNIES, and BMW's start at what, about 35K now?

Thank you for making my point more eloquently!

And let's not even get started on the fact that the German plants are largely (if not completely) sustainable: renewable-energy powered, environmentally-safe painting processes, high use of recycled components, etc.

Re: Dresden VW Factory: Yes, I know it is a showcase money loser BUT do you all know the level of R&D it took to automate that place? Those wood floors are lined with magnets that allow trays of parts and tools to be tailored and delivered automatically to each specific car. The magnets in the floors also provide all the power to run the tools and vehicle assembly platforms. Not to mention the "just-in-time" tram network that delivers car parts to the factory from throughout the city and region. Think of the jobs and technologies that were created just to facilitate all that?

There is just a greater degree of forethought! The German factories I have visited (Germany, SC) allow the car to raise/lower/rotate to allow workers easier and more comfortable access to do their jobs. Can the Volt line do that?

Meanwhile, BMW invests millions to create a factory that is tailored for workers that are aged 50 or older.

Do the GM plants afford this same level of modularity? Do they have this kind of forethought? I think not.

no they do not have the modularity to my knowledge, 'do have this kind of foresight?' you think not? how the hell would you know? how do you know some people in the company arent trying?

why would they spend that kind of cash now while under the microscope(though they just posted record profits). they had to be slim and trim the last few years due to the bailout and paybacks, and heavy criticism to do so, and here are the same people complaining they didnt blow billions on a new fancy facility for the Volt 'loss leader PR stunt'? really? c'mon now guys



besides, last time I checked, the dilapidated warehouse look is very chic these days

 

[AstroManLuca]

I would also like to echo Steve Jobs who believed that what something looks like on the inside is equally important to what people see on the outside. His father taught him that, so he worked tirelessly to make sure the inside of the Apple II, Mac, etc. looked as flawless as it could.

A similar principle applies to what I am trying to address here.

Shit is only going to be as good as what you put in it. And this also applies to the investment and attention to detail given to the environments in which people are expected to produce great things.

 

[IcePickFreak]

I would also like to echo Steve Jobs who believed that what something looks like on the inside is equally important to what people see on the outside. His father taught him that, so he worked tirelessly to make sure the inside of the Apple II, Mac, etc. looked as flawless as it could.

... and if it didn't, send it to the other side of the world and put up suicide nets. :sneaky: