Have an H-1B?

[Descartes]

Wow, a lot of serious misinformation in here. A few things:

1) Global competition in the IT marketplace is good for IT, not bad. If the US competed at all levels, then there would be no room for H1B resources.
2) H1Bs that command $110k are the absolute top of the industry. Americans competing for these same positions will not be competing with your average H1B that is willing to accept less than half the amount. H1Bs generally fulfill an area of IT that is out of direct competition with American IT workers.
3) Rates for H1Bs are not as low as most think. Many of the top firms in India, for example, charge rates that are pretty close to rates in the US. $65/hr for a junior developer and $85/hr for a top developer. This might be lower than your top American workers, but nevertheless it's still easier to compete.
4) On the whole, H1Bs are employed to fulfill quantity, not quality. If you need a team of 20 (I would argue that 90% of the time you don't, but companies still think the Mythical Man Month is possible), then you'll spend tens of thousands in recruiting efforts to get American workers. A feasible approach is to find lead-level American talent and adjunct that with H1B resources for implementation work.
5) The average H1B resource doesn't compete with the average American resource in terms of quality. This might sound arrogant, but it's true. India, the largest exporter of IT services to the US, agrees; you'll find plenty of so-called finishing schools and other post-graduate efforts to try and bridge the gap between theoretical and practical. Newspapers are filled with articles concerning the quality of IT exports. Couple this with cultural and communication issues, and you find an increasing need for American resources to liaise between on and off-shore efforts.

The point is, for Americans to continue on their IT path they have to get more competitive, not protectionistic. It's a competitive marketplace, and there's plenty of space for Americans to prosper if they put forth the effort to do so. If not, then superior talent from abroad will take your place. Blocking H1Bs won't make any difference.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: PimpJuice
Youre paying foreign workers to do work that Americans should be doing. Basically, youre giving foreign citizens american dollars......that money will be saved and taken back to whatever country they go back to. We need to keep that money in the US so it can currculate and fuel the economic engine. I personally work with and am friends with many H1B visa guys. They SAVE every penny they can, and invest it back into their home countries (one guy is buying land and building apartments).......that money should be spent here, not there.

:roll:

Excuse PimpJuice for caring about this country, somebody has too, our own politicians could give 2 shits about us.

If you don't hire H1B workers here in the US then companies will go directly to India/China, build plants and hire workers there.
Take your pick.

Why should anyone but me have a say on how my money is spent?
I became a citizen in 2002. You really think I'll spend all my life in America and retire here?

Heck no, I'll be going back home for retirement and will take every penny I've saved with me.

This is exactly what's wrong with this whole system. Your not even helping our economy it's almost as if you're just leeching.

Ya, this happens way too much these days. My wife works for a company which is run by a bunch of people from India. Most of them send almost all of their money back home or plan to just save up and then leave the US taking their money with them. It completely breaks the cycle of our economy. Not to mention that they are much more prone to dealing under the table and restrict most of their hiring to more people from India who are equally as shady. It's totally abusing the system in ways that were not intended.

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: PimpJuice
Youre paying foreign workers to do work that Americans should be doing. Basically, youre giving foreign citizens american dollars......that money will be saved and taken back to whatever country they go back to. We need to keep that money in the US so it can currculate and fuel the economic engine. I personally work with and am friends with many H1B visa guys. They SAVE every penny they can, and invest it back into their home countries (one guy is buying land and building apartments).......that money should be spent here, not there.

:roll:

Excuse PimpJuice for caring about this country, somebody has too, our own politicians could give 2 shits about us.

If you don't hire H1B workers here in the US then companies will go directly to India/China, build plants and hire workers there.
Take your pick.

Why should anyone but me have a say on how my money is spent?
I became a citizen in 2002. You really think I'll spend all my life in America and retire here?

Heck no, I'll be going back home for retirement and will take every penny I've saved with me.

This is exactly what's wrong with this whole system. Your not even helping our economy it's almost as if you're just leeching.

Ya, this happens way too much these days. My wife works for a company which is run by a bunch of people from India. Most of them send almost all of their money back home or plan to just save up and then leave the US taking their money with them. It completely breaks the cycle of our economy. Not to mention that they are much more prone to dealing under the table and restrict most of their hiring to more people from India who are equally as shady. It's totally abusing the system in ways that were not intended.

So she is part of the problem; not the solution. If she found a new job then she would help undermine these rascals.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: RKS


So she is part of the problem; not the solution. If she found a new job then she would help undermine these rascals.

We're working on that. Obviously she wasn't aware of such things when she took the job. How could she have been? At the time, she was unemployed so she needed to get something quick so such things were not exactly on our minds when we noticed the company primarily has hired people from India. Regardless, that isn't the main reason why she is leaving but it certainly doesn't help her motivation to stay either.

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: RKS


So she is part of the problem; not the solution. If she found a new job then she would help undermine these rascals.

We're working on that. Obviously she wasn't aware of such things when she took the job. How could she have been? At the time, she was unemployed so she needed to get something quick so such things were not exactly on our minds when we noticed the company primarily has hired people from India. Regardless, that isn't the main reason why she is leaving but it certainly doesn't help her motivation to stay either.

So at her next interview is she going to inquire into the nationality of the principals and their spending/saving habits?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: RKS

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: RKS


So she is part of the problem; not the solution. If she found a new job then she would help undermine these rascals.

We're working on that. Obviously she wasn't aware of such things when she took the job. How could she have been? At the time, she was unemployed so she needed to get something quick so such things were not exactly on our minds when we noticed the company primarily has hired people from India. Regardless, that isn't the main reason why she is leaving but it certainly doesn't help her motivation to stay either.

So at her next interview is she going to inquire into the nationality of the principals and their spending/saving habits?

lol, somehow I don't think that will win her the position. 😉

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Lothar
If you don't hire H1B workers here in the US then companies will go directly to India/China, build plants and hire workers there.
Take your pick.

Why should anyone but me have a say on how my money is spent?
I became a citizen in 2002. You really think I'll spend all my life in America and retire here?

Heck no, I'll be going back home for retirement and will take every penny I've saved with me.

This is exactly what's wrong with this whole system. Your not even helping our economy it's almost as if you're just leeching.

I'm not here to help your economy, Moto. I didn't fly 5,300 miles for that.
I'm here to help myself and my family.

You and your family can leech of my taxes since I'll never collect SS or Medicare.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: Descartes
Wow, a lot of serious misinformation in here. A few things:

1) Global competition in the IT marketplace is good for IT, not bad. If the US competed at all levels, then there would be no room for H1B resources.
2) H1Bs that command $110k are the absolute top of the industry. Americans competing for these same positions will not be competing with your average H1B that is willing to accept less than half the amount. H1Bs generally fulfill an area of IT that is out of direct competition with American IT workers.
3) Rates for H1Bs are not as low as most think. Many of the top firms in India, for example, charge rates that are pretty close to rates in the US. $65/hr for a junior developer and $85/hr for a top developer. This might be lower than your top American workers, but nevertheless it's still easier to compete.
4) On the whole, H1Bs are employed to fulfill quantity, not quality. If you need a team of 20 (I would argue that 90% of the time you don't, but companies still think the Mythical Man Month is possible), then you'll spend tens of thousands in recruiting efforts to get American workers. A feasible approach is to find lead-level American talent and adjunct that with H1B resources for implementation work.
5) The average H1B resource doesn't compete with the average American resource in terms of quality. This might sound arrogant, but it's true. India, the largest exporter of IT services to the US, agrees; you'll find plenty of so-called finishing schools and other post-graduate efforts to try and bridge the gap between theoretical and practical. Newspapers are filled with articles concerning the quality of IT exports. Couple this with cultural and communication issues, and you find an increasing need for American resources to liaise between on and off-shore efforts.

The point is, for Americans to continue on their IT path they have to get more competitive, not protectionistic. It's a competitive marketplace, and there's plenty of space for Americans to prosper if they put forth the effort to do so. If not, then superior talent from abroad will take your place. Blocking H1Bs won't make any difference.

:thumbsup:

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: RKS

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: hx009

Originally posted by: RKS
We are hiring in the Dayton Ohio area. I think it pays between $60K - $110K. It looks like you have to be in H-1B status between 9/2008 - 9/2011.

Ok I'll show my ignorance... why would you require an H1B instead of considering local candidates?

I was about to ask the same thing. Can I have the name of your company so that I can post about how they discriminate AGAINST American workers? 🙂

We are owned by a Dutch company.

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.

 

[kalster]

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: Ktulu

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: PimpJuice
Youre paying foreign workers to do work that Americans should be doing. Basically, youre giving foreign citizens american dollars......that money will be saved and taken back to whatever country they go back to. We need to keep that money in the US so it can currculate and fuel the economic engine. I personally work with and am friends with many H1B visa guys. They SAVE every penny they can, and invest it back into their home countries (one guy is buying land and building apartments).......that money should be spent here, not there.

:roll:

Excuse PimpJuice for caring about this country, somebody has too, our own politicians could give 2 shits about us.

If you don't hire H1B workers here in the US then companies will go directly to India/China, build plants and hire workers there.
Take your pick.

Why should anyone but me have a say on how my money is spent?
I became a citizen in 2002. You really think I'll spend all my life in America and retire here?

Heck no, I'll be going back home for retirement and will take every penny I've saved with me.

This is exactly what's wrong with this whole system. Your not even helping our economy it's almost as if you're just leeching.

how is it leeching, i pay thousands of dollars a year in medicare and social security tax that i will never ever use , I am on a h1b and will be leaving the US in a couple of years,

 

[josh0099]

I have no problem with H-1B in general, but if they didn't open the jobs up for American Citizens and keep it open in the first place that is where the problem is at...

 

[darthsidious]

Ok, so I think the OP may have mislead some people. Whenever a company is applying for a H1B for some person, as a part of the application process(the "Labor Condition Application" or the LCA), the company is required to post a notice saying that they are applying for an H1B visa for a certain position, and give a salary range. This range may be the range paid within the company for that position and/or the average range for that position. This is NOT a recruiting tool typically. Any company that says it will only hire H1B's over local employees is shooting itself in the foot, and I doubt a company is that dumb. I think this notice is meant to let other employees know that a nonimmigrant is being hired, and see the range he's being paid. If it seems too low, they can complain or something.

The most likely scenario is: The company intends to sponsor an H1B visa for someone (the filing date for this season is April 1), and they were putting up the Labor Condition Application for this person. The OP misinterpreted this as an ad asking for someone with an H1B to apply. OP, I'd recommend talking to your HR department if you want to figure out what exactly is the purpose of that notice - I'm fairly certain that it's goal is not to have you recruit candidates for that position.

So for all the people crying wolf about the company asking for an H1B over a local employee - the company is just fulfilling INS regulations (if my interpretation is correct). Of course, I could be wrong, and the company could be asking it's employees to find an H1B to hire, but I find that very improbable. Too many things here smell like a LCA - the mention of H1B, an explicit mention of a salary range, and the three year or so period of employment.....

OP please let me know if I was right or wrong.

 

[PandaBear]

I think this "we are hiring H1B" thing is just to fulfill the requirement of certain INS regulation. Not sure if they are really hiring.

I have seen some really odd advertisement in San Francisco's Chinese newspaper before, in English. This is to fulfill the requirement of "we can't find enough American to work" by posting ads in several different sources that no one would read (in a wrong language? come on). Usually they throw away the resume the get in the end, still claims that they can't find a US candidate, and apply for green card for their employees.

 

[RKS]

Originally posted by: darthsidious
Ok, so I think the OP may have mislead some people. Whenever a company is applying for a H1B for some person, as a part of the application process(the "Labor Condition Application" or the LCA), the company is required to post a notice saying that they are applying for an H1B visa for a certain position, and give a salary range. This range may be the range paid within the company for that position and/or the average range for that position. This is NOT a recruiting tool typically. Any company that says it will only hire H1B's over local employees is shooting itself in the foot, and I doubt a company is that dumb. I think this notice is meant to let other employees know that a nonimmigrant is being hired, and see the range he's being paid. If it seems too low, they can complain or something.

The most likely scenario is: The company intends to sponsor an H1B visa for someone (the filing date for this season is April 1), and they were putting up the Labor Condition Application for this person. The OP misinterpreted this as an ad asking for someone with an H1B to apply. OP, I'd recommend talking to your HR department if you want to figure out what exactly is the purpose of that notice - I'm fairly certain that it's goal is not to have you recruit candidates for that position.

So for all the people crying wolf about the company asking for an H1B over a local employee - the company is just fulfilling INS regulations (if my interpretation is correct). Of course, I could be wrong, and the company could be asking it's employees to find an H1B to hire, but I find that very improbable. Too many things here smell like a LCA - the mention of H1B, an explicit mention of a salary range, and the three year or so period of employment.....

OP please let me know if I was right or wrong.

you may be correct, I'm not an HR person. I'll check next week when I go back in to the office. I don't care either way regarding H-1Bs but I *heard" from a software manager that out of the approximately 1400 developers we were cutting/off-shoring 800 in early 2Q.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

If the company is going to hire a non citizen, it's better for our economy that it happens here in the US, rather than them going back to their native country, and getting a job for the same thing. This country was founded on foreigners, and if we don't let them continue to come here and develop our economy, we will suffer even more.

There are a lot of efforts to increase the ease of foreigners being able to work here, and it's with proper reason.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
If the company is going to hire a non citizen, it's better for our economy that it happens here in the US, rather than them going back to their native country, and getting a job for the same thing. This country was founded on foreigners, and if we don't let them continue to come here and develop our economy, we will suffer even more.

There are a lot of efforts to increase the ease of foreigners being able to work here, and it's with proper reason.

If you don't hire them here, they will be hired there. Plain and simple.
I don't see how that is so hard for anyone to understand.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: PandaBear
I think this "we are hiring H1B" thing is just to fulfill the requirement of certain INS regulation. Not sure if they are really hiring.

I have seen some really odd advertisement in San Francisco's Chinese newspaper before, in English. This is to fulfill the requirement of "we can't find enough American to work" by posting ads in several different sources that no one would read (in a wrong language? come on). Usually they throw away the resume the get in the end, still claims that they can't find a US candidate, and apply for green card for their employees.

There is no INS quotas...

This is outright discrimination against american workers.
Text

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: RKS
We are hiring in the Dayton Ohio area. I think it pays between $60K - $110K. It looks like you have to be in H-1B status between 9/2008 - 9/2011.

Your company may be breaking the law by not making this opportunity available to US workers. My old company used to post reqs to bulletin board because the law required them to try to fill this job with an American worker before requesting an H1B visa.

 

[darthsidious]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RKS
We are hiring in the Dayton Ohio area. I think it pays between $60K - $110K. It looks like you have to be in H-1B status between 9/2008 - 9/2011.

Your company may be breaking the law by not making this opportunity available to US workers. My old company used to post reqs to bulletin board because the law required them to try to fill this job with an American worker before requesting an H1B visa.

And I think the OP saw one of these reqs (LCA) and concluded that the company was looking for an H1B in particular. The company is probably in the process for applying for an H1B for some future/current employee, and the LCA req on the compay board is a part of the application process. I doubt any company would put out an requisition to it's employees saying "We want you to find us an H1B to hire, not a US citizen". That would be dumb, and quickly get them in trouble with USCIS.

 

[Imdmn04]

God damn there so many people with sour grapes in this thread.

It's called capitalism, if you can't compete, then too bad. "Protecting" American workers is really a form of communism, just like trade tariffs, it's preventing a free flow of economic activity. If China can make shoes cheaper than Americans can, then we should buy them. If India can provide IT services cheaper than Americans can, then we should buy their service.

Yes, it sucks for the people that are losing their jobs in that particular industry, but in the bigger picture economy, the benefit outweighs the loss. By buying things that others can produce for cheaper than you can, you gain what is called a Competitive Advantage in micro-economics, it is the reason that we don't raise our own cattle for beef, or plant corn for veggie oil.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
If the company is going to hire a non citizen, it's better for our economy that it happens here in the US, rather than them going back to their native country, and getting a job for the same thing. This country was founded on foreigners, and if we don't let them continue to come here and develop our economy, we will suffer even more.

There are a lot of efforts to increase the ease of foreigners being able to work here, and it's with proper reason.

If you don't hire them here, they will be hired there. Plain and simple.
I don't see how that is so hard for anyone to understand.

Exactly, and so I support keeping foreigners in the country. When people come here for their graduate level studies, they shouldn't go home after it with their knowledge, but rather stay here and help to develop the economy. We can't compete forever by trying to keep the doors closed for them, that's a very very short term solution and probably won't even make an impact because by the time we close the doors, they'll just do the same thing back in their own country.

 

[dingnecros]

I am an H1B but I dont work with IT. I am a hardcore electrical engineer, heck there are only 200-300 people in the whole world that have knowledge in the specific area I specialize in and I am not even a phd . But I must say that I did not fall into this by accident. I love computers and can program very well (I still do as a hobby) I started out in IT but given the wobbly state of IT and the attitude of people and the literal exploitation of people in this field I was so pissed of it in about 3 months that I decided to go for my master's.

To the person who said that asian students do well in grad school and fall flat in real world. I can only say that americans are even more susceptible to this. I don't mean to hammer anyone but I have had at length discussions regarding this subject with a number of senior ranking Americans and HR people. All of them had a common theme that the American high school system has been totally neutered to produce garbage and they all hate bush for the no child left behind campaign. The good universities maintain some level of standards but then again they are also faced with the dilemma of producing results vs maintaining quality. I personally have had an experience with this in a Lab course I was teaching in grad school ... one student didn't submit any assignments, finished only 2 experiments and didn't do the final project. I gave him a failing grade but to my surprise the professor in charge made it a passing grade. In contrast when I was in undergrad back home, I was given a near failing grade for meeting only 6 out of the 7 objectives on the final project. Sure I hated it that time and was cursing the hell out at the professor but now I understand that when it comes to making engineering decisions then only meeting part of the objective is never an option coz this may mean the difference between life and death for someone.

I am not saying that grade adjustments etc does not happen in India and china but take into account the populations in these countries. The no. of people lying in the top ranked percentile might be more than the total no. of people in the whole sample set in a sparsely populated country like America. Hence the probability of finding a quality candidate from those countries increases. Which also means taken a bulk amount there are more no. of bad candidates in these countries than in America

I do have to agree to some extent that the IT industry has abused the H1B visa and the capitalist structure of corporate America has aggravated the situation but short sighted decisions made by people running the country is not particularly helping out. As for the money question, nobody likes to leave friends and family and come this far to just live. The social structure is very different from US and the son is expected to support the parents till their last breath. And belive me almost nobody thinks its a burden on them.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: SunnyD

Originally posted by: hx009

Originally posted by: RKS
We are hiring in the Dayton Ohio area. I think it pays between $60K - $110K. It looks like you have to be in H-1B status between 9/2008 - 9/2011.

Ok I'll show my ignorance... why would you require an H1B instead of considering local candidates?

I was about to ask the same thing. Can I have the name of your company so that I can post about how they discriminate AGAINST American workers? 🙂

Now, Now... We all know that big corporations need those H1-B's to keep IT wages lower! Why pay a US technology worker with 20 years experience a $90K a year salary they want when they can pay someone from India or China to work on-site with a $65K salary instead?

Besides, they probably need people who can properly communicate with the lower level software developers that they already have working in India or Brazil for the equivalent of $10 a hour.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RKS
We are hiring in the Dayton Ohio area. I think it pays between $60K - $110K. It looks like you have to be in H-1B status between 9/2008 - 9/2011.

Your company may be breaking the law by not making this opportunity available to US workers. My old company used to post reqs to bulletin board because the law required them to try to fill this job with an American worker before requesting an H1B visa.

Yeah, and I think that we've all seen those "job postings" before on Monster.com and CareerBuilder. They're usually the ones where the company is looking for someone with 10 years experience developing some brand new technology like Visual C# or SQL Server 2005, requires half a dozen different obscure certifications, and has an obscenely low starting salary like $50K a year.

If they're feeling really creative, they might put in a 100% travel requirement or add some obscure requirement like requesting a Flash developer who also knows Visual COBOL or VAX programming.

 

[Casawi]

Originally posted by: dingnecros
I am an H1B but I dont work with IT. I am a hardcore electrical engineer, heck there are only 200-300 people in the whole world that have knowledge in the specific area I specialize in and I am not even a phd . But I must say that I did not fall into this by accident. I love computers and can program very well (I still do as a hobby) I started out in IT but given the wobbly state of IT and the attitude of people and the literal exploitation of people in this field I was so pissed of it in about 3 months that I decided to go for my master's.

To the person who said that asian students do well in grad school and fall flat in real world. I can only say that americans are even more susceptible to this. I don't mean to hammer anyone but I have had at length discussions regarding this subject with a number of senior ranking Americans and HR people. All of them had a common theme that the American high school system has been totally neutered to produce garbage and they all hate bush for the no child left behind campaign. The good universities maintain some level of standards but then again they are also faced with the dilemma of producing results vs maintaining quality. I personally have had an experience with this in a Lab course I was teaching in grad school ... one student didn't submit any assignments, finished only 2 experiments and didn't do the final project. I gave him a failing grade but to my surprise the professor in charge made it a passing grade. In contrast when I was in undergrad back home, I was given a near failing grade for meeting only 6 out of the 7 objectives on the final project. Sure I hated it that time and was cursing the hell out at the professor but now I understand that when it comes to making engineering decisions then only meeting part of the objective is never an option coz this may mean the difference between life and death for someone.

I am not saying that grade adjustments etc does not happen in India and china but take into account the populations in these countries. The no. of people lying in the top ranked percentile might be more than the total no. of people in the whole sample set in a sparsely populated country like America. Hence the probability of finding a quality candidate from those countries increases. Which also means taken a bulk amount there are more no. of bad candidates in these countries than in America

I do have to agree to some extent that the IT industry has abused the H1B visa and the capitalist structure of corporate America has aggravated the situation but short sighted decisions made by people running the country is not particularly helping out. As for the money question, nobody likes to leave friends and family and come this far to just live. The social structure is very different from US and the son is expected to support the parents till their last breath. And belive me almost nobody thinks its a burden on them.

:thumbsup: