Has violence in the Ukraine reinforced the 2nd amendment?

[Thebobo]

You kids go play army somewhere else please.

 

[Spungo]

Is there any evidence that gun control led to the holocaust?

You're right. I'm sure the holocaust was entirely voluntary. There was no coercion, no force, no violence. Jewish people happily put down the guns they didn't have then went without a fight. And they never rose up after obtaining weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

It was derived from street-fighting skills developed by Slovakian-Israeli martial artist Imi Lichtenfeld, who made use of his training as a boxer and wrestler, as a means of defending the Jewish quarter against fascist groups in Bratislava[2] in the mid-to-late 1930s.

Interesting. Why shoot fascists when I could spend countless hours training in martial arts and hope that I'm not outnumbered 3 to 1 when they find me?

I'm not even shocked by this stuff anymore. Every week I hear something new. Where do all of these stereotypes come from? Everybody automatically assumes that Jewish people are incapable of fighting or shooting guns. Not every Jew looks like Woody Allen. Comedian Andrew Dice Clay is Jewish. Those nightly raids by the SS would have been a lot harder if Jews were armed to the teeth. Imagine thousands of guys like Dice Clay carrying guns. I bet a lot of Soviets wished they had guns as well. The government should be afraid of the people, not the other way around.

 

[norseamd]

Interesting. Why shoot fascists when I could spend countless hours training in martial arts and hope that I'm not outnumbered 3 to 1 when they find me? I'm not even shocked by this stuff anymore. Every week I hear something new. Where do all of these stereotypes come from? Everybody automatically assumes that Jewish people are incapable of fighting or shooting guns. Not every Jew looks like Woody Allen. Comedian Andrew Dice Clay is Jewish. Those nightly raids by the SS would have been a lot harder if Jews were armed to the teeth. Imagine thousands of guys like Dice Clay carrying guns. I bet a lot of Soviets wished they had guns as well. The government should be afraid of the people, not the other way around.

krav maga has been known as a effective fighting and self defense art for some time

 

[theeedude]

As a Ukrainian Jew, I'm going to say yes. Do you know how many people have tried to kill us? Stalin tried to kill us in the 30's because we were Ukrainian. Hitler tried to kill us in the 40's because we were Jewish.

Show me 1 Jewish person who supports gun confiscation and I will show you a retarded person.

Considering the quotes of the leaders of one of the three opposition parties, Svoboda, now in charge and providing the muscle for the new government, this is not a purely historical exercise.

Svoboda, which was originally known by the Nazi-esque moniker “Social-National Party of Ukraine” and whose leader Oleh Tyahnybok is infamous for a 2004 speech in which he argued that a “Moscow-Jewish mafia” was ruling Ukraine, entered parliament for the first time in 2012 by winning 10.44 percent of the popular vote.

Some historians have accused the Ukrainian Insurgent Army of cooperating in the massacres of thousands of Ukrainian Jews during the Nazi occupation, and Tyahnybok even commended the rebels in 2004 for fighting “Russians, Germans, Jewry and other crap.” The Simon Wiesenthal Center put Svoboda at number five on its 2012 list of top anti-semitic slurs, citing Tyahnybok’s “Moscow-Jewish mafia” comment and Miroshnychenko calling Ukrainian-born actress Mila Kunis a “dirty Jewess.”

http://www.thenation.com/article/178013/ukrainian-nationalism-heart-euromaidan

 

[fskimospy]

Sure, if you just come out and say "Lets rumble." But hide some insurgents or rebels among the populace, and the professional military will be useless.

Also there will likely be a lot of patriots from the professional military force who would side with the armed civilians, and train them. There are a lot of veterans out there who are just as unhappy with government as the armed civilians and would have no problem jumping in.

As another has mentioned. Iraq was a blood bath. Our military was pretty clueless on how to handle it. It would have been worse if our enemy didn't fight among each other.

Add in a country 50x the size, and with no infighting, and IMHO smarter populace, and I'd hate to be our professional military. We don't have some impenetrable fortress. I'd imagine us being way weaker than most think and the government leads on.

Iraq was not a bloodbath. Do you realize what the kill ratios were? That doesn't mean that US deaths were not an unnecessary tragedy, but let's not fool ourselves here.

The general estimates are about 4,500 US troops lost (total, including the invasion). Iraqi insurgent losses were estimated at about 5-6x that level, even including US casualties during the invasion.

This is a silly exercise anyway, but the idea that Iraq was a 'bloodbath' is absurd by any normal estimates of battlefield casualties.

 

[norseamd]

Iraq was not a bloodbath. Do you realize what the kill ratios were? That doesn't mean that US deaths were not an unnecessary tragedy, but let's not fool ourselves here. The general estimates are about 4,500 US troops lost (total, including the invasion). Iraqi insurgent losses were estimated at about 5-6x that level, even including US casualties during the invasion. This is a silly exercise anyway, but the idea that Iraq was a 'bloodbath' is absurd by any normal estimates of battlefield casualties.

and were the us forces able to defeat the iraqi insurgents

 

[fskimospy]

and were the us forces able to defeat the iraqi insurgents

Depends on what you mean by that. Again, this is a silly conversation as any possible conflict within the US would be insanely different than the conflict in Iraq.

From my experience with gun enthusiasts in America I find it likely that many of them vastly overestimate their prospects.

 

[norseamd]

Depends on what you mean by that. Again, this is a silly conversation as any possible conflict within the US would be insanely different than the conflict in Iraq. From my experience with gun enthusiasts in America I find it likely that many of them vastly overestimate their prospects.

the question is would america having a conflict with the citizens be near impossible to finish and would it completely ruin the american economy so that the support for the military and such would be impossible to maintain.

 

[shadow9d9]

Sure, if you just come out and say "Lets rumble." But hide some insurgents or rebels among the populace, and the professional military will be useless.

Also there will likely be a lot of patriots from the professional military force who would side with the armed civilians, and train them. There are a lot of veterans out there who are just as unhappy with government as the armed civilians and would have no problem jumping in.

As another has mentioned. Iraq was a blood bath. Our military was pretty clueless on how to handle it. It would have been worse if our enemy didn't fight among each other.

Add in a country 50x the size, and with no infighting, and IMHO smarter populace, and I'd hate to be our professional military. We don't have some impenetrable fortress. I'd imagine us being way weaker than most think and the government leads on.

We are a smarter populace? Ahahaha. Fatter? Absolutely!

 

[Nebor]

and were the us forces able to defeat the iraqi insurgents

Yes. In every single battle that they engaged in. Same goes for Afghanistan. The casualty rates of the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan were astronomical. The most one sided warfare the world has ever seen.

The better question is, were we able to defeat the insurgency? Not really, but that fault falls on the civilian leadership imposing restraints on the military, not military failure itself. Rest assured that if those civilian leaders themselves were in danger of being deposed or killed, they would impose no such restraints on the military defending them.

 

[norseamd]

Yes. In every single battle that they engaged in. Same goes for Afghanistan. The casualty rates of the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan were astronomical. The most one sided warfare the world has ever seen. The better question is, were we able to defeat the insurgency? Not really, but that fault falls on the civilian leadership imposing restraints on the military, not military failure itself. Rest assured that if those civilian leaders themselves were in danger of being deposed or killed, they would impose no such restraints on the military defending them.

you answered the question with a wholly unsuitable answer and then went on to elaborate with a wholly suitable answer.

 

[JulesMaximus]

You're right. I'm sure the holocaust was entirely voluntary. There was no coercion, no force, no violence. Jewish people happily put down the guns they didn't have then went without a fight. And they never rose up after obtaining weapons.

That happened in 1944 genius.

 

[Nebor]

you answered the question with a wholly unsuitable answer and then went on to elaborate with a wholly suitable answer.

I uh... what?

 

[norseamd]

meaning the second paragraph of your answer was the right one.

a basic tenet of war is knowing how to fight battles vs fighting the war

 

[Nebor]

meaning the second paragraph of your answer was the right one.

a basic tenet of war is knowing how to fight battles vs fighting the war

Knowing how is one thing, being allowed to is another. Not that I think you're any sort of authority on war. Unless you want to tell me which years you completed ILE, CGSC and\or the War College.

 

[shortylickens]

As a Ukrainian Jew, I'm going to say yes. Do you know how many people have tried to kill us? Stalin tried to kill us in the 30's because we were Ukrainian. Hitler tried to kill us in the 40's because we were Jewish.

Show me 1 Jewish person who supports gun confiscation and I will show you a retarded person.

Umm, theres tons of jew liberals in big cities all over america that are trying to ban guns.
Oodles of them.

 

[theeedude]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.576230

Ukrainian synagogue reportedly firebombed in first violence against Jews

Maybe Ukrainian Jews should get weapons now that antisemitic "protesters" are going around with a bad habit of throwing Molotov cocktails.

 

[Nebor]

Umm, theres tons of jew liberals in big cities all over america that are trying to ban guns.
Oodles of them.

 

[Scotteq]

There are suitable alternatives to individual gun ownership.

(1) Arrange Public Demonstrations
(2) Agitate until the government cracks down
(3) Just before the tanks and Snipers arrive, make sure CNN has cameras rolling.
(4) Allow yourself to be filmed dying in large numbers for your cause. Position your head in direct line of sight of any high speed cameras, for slow motion drama. Bonus points for self immolations.
(5) stuff happens... Or not...
(6) Profit

 

[norseamd]

Knowing how is one thing, being allowed to is another. Not that I think you're any sort of authority on war. Unless you want to tell me which years you completed ILE, CGSC and\or the War College.

are those war or political colleges

 

[norseamd]

Maybe Ukrainian Jews should get weapons now that antisemitic "protesters" are going around with a bad habit of throwing Molotov cocktails.

so what about these russian protestors just wanting to protect their homes and culture

 

[theeedude]

so what about these russian protestors just wanting to protect their homes and culture

They should get weapons just in case armed thugs start coming from the west.
Right now, the new "government" in Kiev is operating under threat of Maidan, so you are seeing these 300 to 0 votes even though the parliament has 440 seats and the pro EU parties are in a minority. No one wants to get lynched. Party of Regions offices have been attacked and firebombed too. So much for pro-democracy protesters.

 

[norseamd]

They should get weapons just in case armed thugs start coming from the west. Right now, the new "government" in Kiev is operating under threat of Maidan, so you are seeing these 300 to 0 votes even though the parliament has 440 seats and the pro EU parties are in a minority. No one wants to get lynched. Party of Regions offices have been attacked and firebombed too. So much for pro-democracy protesters.

that synagogue was in southeast ukraine

 

[Thebobo]

so what about these russian protestors just wanting to protect their homes and culture

What Russian protesters?

 

[theeedude]

that synagogue was in southeast ukraine

So was party of regions office that was firebombed. The "democratic" "protesters" from the west are going into those places and asserting themselves through violence.