Has the right gone completely insane about immigration?

[cabri]

You also have the effect of illegals sending massive amounts of funds back to the home country to support relatives.

 

[nixium]

Again with the insults. You have issues "amigo". You just cant seem to talk politics without acting like an angry child and insulting everyone that thinks differently than you. /shrugs

Anyhow, back on topic, I would pay $10 an hour because its highly illegal to hire an illegal and I would lose my business, but that is me. I didn't say "immigration has no effect on middle class wages" - I am saying its minimal and mostly I am saying we have far bigger problems to worry about. Many many many far bigger problems.

Yeah you claim you would, but not everyone is. You can't ignore the decisions of the entire business community just because you take the moral high road.

I don't understand, are you saying the political class is capable of focusing on only one thing at a time? Why can't we handle multiple issues at once, because they are interlinked?

And anyway, you're wrong. People make up the nation, and a problem affecting ~15% of a population deserves to be in the top 10 issues affecting america.

 

[nixium]

What is your point? This is a nation of immigrants. I am the descendant of immigrants and I assume you are too. Long before the population got bigger, there was no restaurant, no dishes no customer and therefore no job at all. The laws of economics rule here, its supply and demand.

I'm a legal immigrant.

You're missing an important part of "supply and demand" - the effect on wages. By allowing unlimited low skilled labor, you are affecting wages, there's no doubt about it. If the demand is that high, the right way to solve t is by introducing a guest worker program, not building an underclass to support it.

 

[retrospooty]

I'd like to know how many people here think immigration is one of the top issues facing this country?

A lot of people talk about it like it's important but their voting record doesn't support their rhetoric.

Poll posted, go vote - http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2444180

 

[nixium]

Illegal immigrants? I have to have someone to scapegoat. Otherwise, I might have to accept that my situation is largely my own doing, and, as a proud American, I'm just not ready for that level of introspection.

You can't blame people for wanting to buy cheap stuff. It's not like every brand comes with a little disclaimer pamphlet that says this was built on the sweat and tears of underpaid immigrant workers. And it's a vicious cycle - with the wages on the bottom being flattened, people can't afford the more expensive, but ethically sourced, variety.

You can't blame the market for working how it does. What you can blame is the government giving up on enforcement, and corporations lobbying to make sure it stays that way.

 

[nixium]

No, it doesn't. That is not where our money goes. Very little of it goes to dealing with undocumented workers and they arent exactly taking good jobs. They are working in fields and washing dishes - doing the jobs we wont do. Have you even been to the USA? Seems like you havent by your comment.

Also, note the casual arrogance in this statement - the undocumented underclass are good for "working in fields" and "washing dishes", as if they aren't really people with their own hopes and dreams but fit for only doing this.

What makes you think they will want to stay in this sort of work permanently? Why would they not want better lives for themselves, their children? You think if they had the money they won't send their kids to good schools and colleges? If they had opportunities for improvement they will take it, which puts them in direct competition with the "upperclass" types like you.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

You also have the effect of illegals sending massive amounts of funds back to the home country to support relatives.

Ah yes, the old nonsensical one-two punch of "they come here and take our jobs and work for basically nothing" followed with "then they take that basically nothing that they're making and somehow turn it into MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF FUNDS to send out of the country." The effect of illegal immigrants shipping money to relatives back at home wouldn't even register as a rounding error in terms of annual GDP.

 

[retrospooty]

Also, note the casual arrogance in this statement - the undocumented underclass are good for "working in fields" and "washing dishes", as if they aren't really people with their own hopes and dreams but fit for only doing this.

What makes you think they will want to stay in this sort of work permanently? Why would they not want better lives for themselves, their children? You think if they had the money they won't send their kids to good schools and colleges? If they had opportunities for improvement they will take it, which puts them in direct competition with the "upperclass" types like you.

Don't put words into my mouth, that is a low blow. People are coming here from poor countries and economically depressed regions where they cant make ends meet. They are risking alot to come here and do these low end jobs because it is worth the risk to them and its a better living than where they started. Dont make it out like I am being arrogant or looking down on anyone trying to make a better life for their families. I am asking what makes people think this is a major issue being put in front of many others that I personally feel are far worse.

 

[retrospooty]

Ah yes, the old nonsensical one-two punch of "they come here and take our jobs and work for basically nothing" followed with "then they take that basically nothing that they're making and somehow turn it into MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF FUNDS to send out of the country." The effect of illegal immigrants shipping money to relatives back at home wouldn't even register as a rounding error in terms of annual GDP.

LOL... Yup, no matter how you look at it the #'s just don't ad up to the rhetoric

 

[retrospooty]

You're missing an important part of "supply and demand" - the effect on wages. By allowing unlimited low skilled labor, you are affecting wages, there's no doubt about it.

OK, but there are 2 sides to that. If the small business paying lower amounts may be what kept them in business. If they had to pay a higher wage they may have had to close up shop. - I am not saying I have all the answers, just that I think alot of people in the US are focusing on all of the wrong things with regards to this.

 

[BoberFett]

Again with the insults. You have issues "amigo". You just cant seem to talk politics without acting like an angry child and insulting everyone that thinks differently than you. /shrugs

Anyhow, back on topic, I would pay $10 an hour because its highly illegal to hire an illegal and I would lose my business, but that is me. I didn't say "immigration has no effect on middle class wages" - I am saying its minimal and mostly I am saying we have far bigger problems to worry about. Many many many far bigger problems.

You started a thread telling anyone who disagrees with you about immigration that they're insane. So you started with insults in the title of your thread, what did you expect?

And you still don't understand cause and effect.

 

[BoberFett]

You can't blame people for wanting to buy cheap stuff. It's not like every brand comes with a little disclaimer pamphlet that says this was built on the sweat and tears of underpaid immigrant workers. And it's a vicious cycle - with the wages on the bottom being flattened, people can't afford the more expensive, but ethically sourced, variety.

You can't blame the market for working how it does. What you can blame is the government giving up on enforcement, and corporations lobbying to make sure it stays that way.

Actually they did used to come with a note. Remember the Made In The USA campaign 30 years ago?

Americans chose to buy cheap imports anyway.

Americans have nobody to blame but themselves.

 

[BurnItDwn]

No, they haven't.

Is it because they were already insane to begin with? <borat:/> High Five!

 

[nixium]

OK, but there are 2 sides to that. If the small business paying lower amounts may be what kept them in business. If they had to pay a higher wage they may have had to close up shop. - I am not saying I have all the answers, just that I think alot of people in the US are focusing on all of the wrong things with regards to this.

Have you considered perhaps in that example, the right choice is to close shop, if the alternative is to break ethical free market rules, and import an indentured servant (no rights, no benefits, miserable pay, offload support responsibility on public services?)

Let's take another example. Right now, there is a person somewhere in this world who will do your job just as well as you for 50% of the pay. Your company is in financial difficulties. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable (using the example above) to import this person (illegally) and make him do your job (otherwise your company will go out of business).

You haven't provided reasons for why you think the immigration problem is not important. A border defines the soul of a country. America is a self proclaimed land of immigration. Yet the border is pretty much porous, and the immigration system is completely broken. And you're saying this is "no big deal", for a country that defines its soul by immigration?

 

[sandorski]

The top issue should be blatant Bribery of Politicians and Political Corruption.

 

[BoberFett]

Have you considered perhaps in that example, the right choice is to close shop, if the alternative is to break ethical free market rules, and import an indentured servant (no rights, no benefits, miserable pay, offload support responsibility on public services?)

Let's take another example. Right now, there is a person somewhere in this world who will do your job just as well as you for 50% of the pay. Your company is in financial difficulties. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable (using the example above) to import this person (illegally) and make him do your job (otherwise your company will go out of business).

You haven't provided reasons for why you think the immigration problem is not important. A border defines the soul of a country. America is a self proclaimed land of immigration. Yet the border is pretty much porous, and the immigration system is completely broken. And you're saying this is "no big deal", for a country that defines its soul by immigration?

You're talking to a group of people who "HATES DEM BILLIONAIRES CUZ THEY SEND UR JERBS OFFSHORE!!!" but vehemently denies that illegal immigration could have ANY effect on wages in the US. Their brains simply don't function properly.

 

[BoberFett]

The top issue should be blatant Bribery of Politicians and Political Corruption.

Except for all that money that the Clinton's foundation took from foreign donors. That's all on the up and up. It's all that corruption on the other team we need to talk about.

 

[nixium]

Actually they did used to come with a note. Remember the Made In The USA campaign 30 years ago?

Americans chose to buy cheap imports anyway.

Americans have nobody to blame but themselves.

It's sad, but economic self interest is one of the cornerstones of capitalism. I don't think that can ever be changed to a large degree. I don't think we can ever convince large groups of people not to shop on price alone. Instead, the check and balances at a system (Government level) to make sure this doesn't happen have to be strengthened.

People were buying stuff made by child labor a 100 years ago, it took the Government to step in and ensure that wasn't happening. Similarly, here it will take the Government to step in and ensure that corporations don't use illegal labor. That isn't happening because they've been bribed and paid off. This is the point everyone is missing. Amnesty etc is useless because this fundamental problem will never be solved.

 

[nixium]

You're talking to a group of people who "HATES DEM BILLIONAIRES CUZ THEY SEND UR JERBS OFFSHORE!!!" but vehemently denies that illegal immigration could have ANY effect on wages in the US. Their brains simply don't function properly.

I really don't understand these people. How can they support two things that are the opposite of each other in a capitalist system? Namely:

1. A higher and higher minimum/living wage.
2. Support of the importation of millions of people who are willing to work below that wage.

 

[retrospooty]

You started a thread telling anyone who disagrees with you about immigration that they're insane. So you started with insults in the title of your thread, what did you expect?

And you still don't understand cause and effect.

That was a generic comment/question at republican party leaders choosing immigration of all things as the hot button issue. Yes, that seems insane to me... It is phrased in an "have we all gone insane" tone... You and I weren't even discussing that yet and you personally came out swinging at me. In fact, you called me an "imbecile" in your first sentence. You don't see a difference? Whatever, I don't care, I was just pointing out your mentality on the matter. You made several good points in between the childish insults. I'll give you that... I disagree, but I will give you that.

 

[Vic]

Give them an English test and if they fail they have to go back.

The Constitutional right to freedom of speech includes the right to choose which language to speak in.

 

[retrospooty]

Have you considered perhaps in that example, the right choice is to close shop, if the alternative is to break ethical free market rules

I wasn't saying what is right or wrong, I don't own a business so I was never hit with that type of choice myself... I was just pointing out what happens and what is happening and that is part of the economy as it is... The good and the bad.

 

[retrospooty]

The Constitutional right to freedom of speech includes the right to choose which language to speak in.

I think the point being made is that they need to speak English to go to public school so they aren't slowing the other 30 kids down. No one is suggesting what people can speak on their own, but to to to school, you need to be able to understand what the teacher is saying.

 

[retrospooty]

Except for all that money that the Clinton's foundation took from foreign donors. That's all on the up and up. It's all that corruption on the other team we need to talk about.

You are right but the issue isn't a left vs. right or rep vs dem issue. It's all of them. It's the false "rep vs. dem" battle they keep pretending to fight while they both rob us blind and laugh together behind closed doors keeping us out here fighting about illegal immigration and whether or not 2 men can marry. THAT is the #1 issue IMO.

 

[Indus]

This is why we need term limits.

It sounds good on principle but in retrospect do you want a family of politicians like bushes and clintons.. you elect the patriarch, then his wife, then his eldest son, younger son, campaign manager, deputy campaign manager etc.

We have a problem where I think we have too many elections for the President. Like you elect a president, he has about 6 months to get things done before he starts thinking about midterms and then so on and so on. Nothing gets done.

I would much rather have a system where a President is elected to a single 10 year term by decade where he ran on a platform to better something for this decade and then turn onto the reins to someone else.

Senators and Congressmen can stay at 2 and 6 years so that if people really do not like the President for 10 years, his power is held in check. The 1 president over 10 years sounds a lot better than Bush, W, Jeb, George P. Bush or Bill, Hillary, Chelsea, Marc Mezvinsky etc.