Has the right gone completely insane about immigration?

[Indus]

We also need a policy that Immigrants and the first generation children of immigrants should be unauthorized any welfare of financial aid from the government of any kind.

It's already in place. A legal permanent resident (green card holder) immigrant is unable to get welfare benefits until they become a US citizen or they have 7 years of taxes paid and then they qualify.

Could just do a little research before thinking of that idea.

 

[werepossum]

That does suck, we need to do alot better with Schools. There should be an english requirement to go to an english speaking school period. It slows everyone down. You live here, you need to learn to speak the language. But the budget is out of whack far more than ESL students. Lets look at the cost as of 2012. The Schools get a national average of $10,500 per student per year. In a class of 30 kids, that is $315000. The teacher gets barely more than 10% of that and 85-90% is what? administration? Come on. It is as wasteful a every branch of govt is because the money goes to the wrong pockets.

Believe it or not, many school districts are now having school inside buildings, often with electricity, running water and sewage disposal. And many times, those things aren't even free!

It's nice to have an enemy that you can point at and say "that's the reason things are shitty." The billionaires who run things don't really want people pointing the finger at them, so they drum up the severity of illegal immigration as though some dirt farmer making $20 a day picking berries is the reason for the rapidly shrinking middle class and the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few plutocrats. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, but it's easier to sit back and hate the immigrant and fantasize that if only he weren't here, you'd be driving around in a gold-plated Ferrari like the guy who fired you and moved your job overseas. Because the immigrants are the real enemy, not the person exploiting both you and them and laughing all the way to the bank.

Yes, I realize the hypocrisy inherent in denouncing the scapegoating of immigrants while simultaneously scapegoating the wealthy. But in the grand scheme of things, if you legitimately buy into the notion that something is seriously wrong in this country (which I don't), doesn't it make more sense to hold those in power accountable? Immigrants aren't responsible for increased corporatization over the past 3 decades that have seen profits wind up in the hands of the few, wages stagnate for the vast majority and prime jobs offshored because moving the immigrants to the factory is less convenient than moving the factory to the workers who can do your job for pennies. Jose isn't the problem, but the people in power would really appreciate if you could keep thinking he was.

Tell that to the guy who lost his job in construction, or at a meat packing plant, or in a hosiery mill or furniture factory. Maybe those aren't jobs you personally value, but to many hard-working, honest Americans those were the best jobs they will ever have. They were jobs that paid mortgages, maybe not in houses you'd live in but houses many Americans were proud to own. And nowadays if an American even holds onto one of those jobs they pay less in unadjusted pay than a couple decades ago. Same thing with jobs washing dishes or picking berries or cleaning hotel rooms. They may be shit jobs by your standards, but to some Americans they were the difference between supporting themselves, with the pride that brings, and trying to get by on the dole.

 

[sandorski]

Except for all that money that the Clinton's foundation took from foreign donors. That's all on the up and up. It's all that corruption on the other team we need to talk about.

I didn't implicate anyone in particular, yet you seem convinced I did. Strange, dontchya think?

 

[Newell Steamer]

Gone? They already were from the get go.

 

[Bart*Simpson]

American Union then. If you are born in the Americas you're an American Citizen and allowed to live or work in any American country.

Run that one up a lamppost in Mexico and you'll shortly be hoisted up to join it.

Seriously. Mexico has the most restrictive immigration laws in the Western Hemisphere and they also have the most restrictive voter ID laws in place to prevent fraud.

Feel free to tell them how racist they are for having these laws.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Tell that to the guy who lost his job in construction, or at a meat packing plant, or in a hosiery mill or furniture factory. Maybe those aren't jobs you personally value, but to many hard-working, honest Americans those were the best jobs they will ever have. They were jobs that paid mortgages, maybe not in houses you'd live in but houses many Americans were proud to own. And nowadays if an American even holds onto one of those jobs they pay less in unadjusted pay than a couple decades ago. Same thing with jobs washing dishes or picking berries or cleaning hotel rooms. They may be shit jobs by your standards, but to some Americans they were the difference between supporting themselves, with the pride that brings, and trying to get by on the dole.

Those are all problems that relate to an employer not valuing American workers as highly as we think we should be valued. If I get fired so someone can come in and do my job for half the price, why would I get mad at that person who works so cheap and not at the boss who decided I wasn't worth the coin he was paying me? Sure, the illegal immigrant is competition, but the boss is the person who has made a value judgment against me. That's why illegal immigration needs to be stopped at the employment side; as long as American employers can cut costs and pocket the profits, there's no real need for them to change. You start issuing massive fines against companies that are hiring illegal immigrants and you watch those jobs dry up. Without incentive to come over, why take the risk?

 

[Bart*Simpson]

Those are all problems that relate to an employer not valuing American workers as highly as we think we should be valued. If I get fired so someone can come in and do my job for half the price, why would I get mad at that person who works so cheap and not at the boss who decided I wasn't worth the coin he was paying me? Sure, the illegal immigrant is competition, but the boss is the person who has made a value judgment against me. That's why illegal immigration needs to be stopped at the employment side; as long as American employers can cut costs and pocket the profits, there's no real need for them to change. You start issuing massive fines against companies that are hiring illegal immigrants and you watch those jobs dry up. Without incentive to come over, why take the risk?

Well said!

 

[Humpy]

Tell that to the guy who lost his job in construction, or at a meat packing plant, or in a hosiery mill or furniture factory. Maybe those aren't jobs you personally value, but to many hard-working, honest Americans those were the best jobs they will ever have.

To be fair those were also the best jobs for many poorly educated, dishonest Americans who made terrible choices and simply couldn't compete with the outcasts and underclass from poorer countries.

At some point merely being "American" shouldn't entitle an irresponsible person to something more than another more responsible person.

 

[boomerang]

You don't think that paying to educate millions of children of people that pay little or no taxes doesn't affect our education system?

This country spends on average $11K/yr per student. You don't think that a couple of millions children, while born here but who were born to illegal immigrants, has any effect on our education budget?

You think that the jobs we won't do ARE the jobs we won't do because we can't or won't do them for as cheaply as those illegal immigrants will?

The jobs we won't do are the way they are because an illegal can come here and pick vegetables for less than minimum wage. Legally no American IS ALLOWED to do that job for that price.

Fucking hell you're an goddam idiot.

Bleeding heart liberal for sure, idiot - quite possibly.

What continues to amaze me is that the people that consider themselves to be the smartest in any room haven't got one fucking lick of common sense.

 

[retrospooty]

Believe it or not, many school districts are now having school inside buildings, often with electricity, running water and sewage disposal. And many times, those things aren't even free

The point there is that the cost structure is out of whack. Just like our prisons. If a family of four can live off $50,000 a year why does it cost more than $50,000 a year to house a single inmate in a prison block? He doesn't have a car he doesn't have to rent he doesn't have a cell phone bill or any of the other things that we have because he's in prison. The cost structure is out of control because that money is going to fat corporate contracts for political favors.

 

[flexy]

Nobody brought it up until Trump brought it up. Every other candidate is just saying "me too!" to stay relevant.

He brought it up because illegals and topics such as "Mexican rapists" but also things like abortion are GREAT subjects to speak to a general, "not so educated" audience by invoking (and taking advantage of) emotions.

You don't need to be smart to hate or blame Jose for your problems...but you need to be relatively smart and at last somewhat educated to understand more complex things, say, economics

Politician's #1 task is catching votes and to achieve this they need to APPEAR as if they have common ground with "the average Joe"..of course this is the more hilarious if a billionaire does it....but ironically..HE DOES IT WELL because people obviously fall for this crap. He does it well because he's a politician...he has learned to talk to the average Joe in the same way as a car salesman has mastered to sell even the shittiest car, otherwise he wouldn't be a good car salesman.

 

[flexy]

why would I get mad at that person who works so cheap and not at the boss who decided I wasn't worth the coin

*) For many Americans (and especially the Right) just the idea of imposing limits on businesses/companies, say, whom they can hire or not or whether they can offshore or not would invoke "socialism panic". The idolized idea of Capitalism implies that any business/corporate should be able to do whatever they want as long as it saves costs and/or increases profits. Simple as that.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

The point there is that the cost structure is out of whack. Just like our prisons. If a family of four can live off $50,000 a year why does it cost more than $50,000 a year to house a single inmate in a prison block? He doesn't have a car he doesn't have to rent he doesn't have a cell phone bill or any of the other things that we have because he's in prison. The cost structure is out of control because that money is going to fat corporate contracts for political favors.

What fat corporate contracts are being involved wrt public school districts? Maybe you're saying that there's too much administration overhead, but even still there's only so much you can cut. America spends more than any other country per pupil with worse results in standardized tests; let's imagine we somehow fix all of our corruption and educational failings and etc and get on par with Finland, where they spend something like 33% less per pupil and usually score #1. We're still talking about $12,000 a year per student. Since they're immigrants, chances are they have more children than the average American family that has been here for generations, so you can double, triple, or more that figure for all of their children. But maybe we can skimp a little and get by with $10,000 per student in this hypothetical scenario, we don't have to be #1. How much money a year does an immigrant performing sub-minimum wage make, period? I'll make up a random figure and say they get paid $4 an hour, working 60 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, which totals around $12,500. Maybe they'd get paid a tiny bit more per hour, maybe they'd take a few weeks off to visit their family south of the border, but roughly speaking I don't think that's an unreasonable guesstimate. Now, how much of that ~$12,000 do they have to spend on basic living expenses just to get by? Of what they have left, how much do they pay in taxes? Even if they spend most of it buying services from local businesses, sales taxes don't exceed 10% anywhere in the country afaik. Income taxes? Yeah right.

I think you can see where I'm going with this, but the point is that there is no way in hell that migrant workers laboring at sub-minimum wage come close to paying for the public services they'll use.

EDIT: I missed your previous post where you did call out administration, but look worldwide and I think you'll see we don't have that much room to cut fluff.

 

[flexy]

You're talking to a group of people who "HATES DEM BILLIONAIRES CUZ THEY SEND UR JERBS OFFSHORE!!!" but vehemently denies that illegal immigration could have ANY effect on wages in the US. Their brains simply don't function properly.

I am not denying that immigration is ONE issue, but it is very low on the list of priorities. (Beside the fact that some proposed changes in immigration law are entirely unpractical, but that's another story).

The issue here is PRIORITIES.

It is indeed correct that "billionaires" are sending Jerbs offshore, this is going on very real or would you deny it? Who built your car and where? Who made your clothes? Who made your iPhone?

Priorities are screwed up since building a fricking wall doesn't address any of this. So you will have a bunch less illegals working less non-skilled under-the-table jobs in factories? Woopdeedoo! Spending billions of dollars on crap which won't have any measurable effect on the economy whatsoever.

 

[retrospooty]

Priorities are screwed up since building a fricking wall doesn't address any of this. So you will have a bunch less illegals working less non-skilled under-the-table jobs in factories? Woopdeedoo! Spending billions of dollars on crap which won't have any measurable effect on the economy whatsoever.

Exactly and thanks... I was struggling finding a better way to 'splain it since obviously my OP pissed some people off in unforeseen ways LOL.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Its been quite a while since I posted here, I just had to ask. What is wrong with todays republicans and the anti immigration backers? I mean seriously, we have so many issues in this country. Real, important issues that will affect all of our lives and the lives of our descendants for generations to come. Can someone please explain to me how illegal immigration is even on the top 10, or top 50 for that matter?

It's a serious economic and environmental issue.

Economic -- the illegal immigrants decrease wages for other poor people, increase the competition of low-skilled (and sometimes even skilled blue collar) jobs, and impose costs on local governments, such as costs for education of children welfare for children, possibly housing costs, health care (a hospital can't turn an illegal immigrant way), and any criminal justice costs.

Environmental/Quality of Life -- mass immigration, which is heavily driven by illegal immigration, increases the nation's population (which has increased dramatically over the past several decades), increasing the strain on our landmass's environment and decreasing the amount of resources per capita. More people means more pollution. More people means an increased demand for clean freshwater with increased amounts of pollutants being expelled into those waters.

We have a national debt that is spiraling out of control and are still spending borrowed money like it grows on trees.

...and importing millions more impoverished people (which is what illegal immigration and mass legal immigration is) doesn't help in those regards. It just makes the nation poorer.

The economy (nuf said). Manufacturing jobs have been leaving for decades...

It's definitely another issue that needs to be addressed, and it's a shame that the Republicans won't address it. The wealthy benefactors of these candidates benefit from foreign outsourcing. The Democrats (other than perhaps Bernie Sanders) won't address it either.

...our education system is absolutely atrocious and falling further behind each year as we pay teachers with 4 year degrees like fast food workers.

There's really nothing wrong with our K-12 education system. The overall student achievement stats are weighted down the large masses of students from impoverished and minority families that we have in this country. White and Asian students from middle class families are doing just fine.

The problem is the expectation that all students should be college ready when not everyone should go to college and when some people simply do not possess the intellectual capacity for it. Our schools are doing just fine. Throwing all the money in the world at K-12 education will not make up for children having bad parentage nor will it solve the natural problem of some people being on the left side of the bell curve in the are of IQ distribution.

Congress is simply broken, Washington in general is simply broken. The government is spying on us in unprecedented ways and what is worse, they seem to think it's OK because "hey, terrorism exists".

The Republicans are largely at fault for all of that, so I wouldn't count on them to campaign against it.

Cops kill FAR more Americans every year than terrorists do, why aren’t we spying on them?

The overwhelming majority of people that get killed by cops did something to provoke it, and as a practical matter, it's probably a benefit to our society that they got killed. In all seriousness, our society will be better off without convenience store robber Michael Brown. Only a tiny little handful of people are wrongfully murdered by the cops.

We have a higher percentage of our population incarcerated than any other country.

You might consider supporting Bernie Sanders; this is an issue he's concerned about it.

We are involved in 2 wars in the middle east that wont end, and all gains made will be lost when we leave, whether we leave this year, in 10 years or 50 years, as soon as we are gone it goes back to the way it was - there is no winning in the shithole that is the Middle East.

The Republicans caused that entire mess, but it's unlikely they'll own up to it.

We are dealing with a potential nuclear Iran, pollution, climate change, the rising price of energy, corporations buying off politicians, the list goes on and on... How on Earth has the republican party determined that illegal immigration is even worth discussing at this time?

They don't have much else to run on and this issue is working wonders for Trump. What else are Republicans suppose to campaign on? Health care reform? They can't run on health care reform because they don't have any solutions to our nation's health care problems.

We have much MUCH bigger issues to deal with. With all that going on, how is it that you are worried about the legal status of the poor guy that washes your dishes trying to feed his kids?

Because an unemployed American, a poor American, could be doing that job instead and we're already paying welfare money to feed that guy's kids. By having an illegal immigrant here, the government and Americans in general are paying money to educate his children and to provide health care for them.

The republican party used to stand for something great. Small govt, freedom, a low tax business friendly environment and most importantly "govt. out of peoples lives. All of that sounds great, but it doesn't sound anything like today's reps. WTF? HTF did this happen?

Arguably they still support free market economics more than the Democrats do.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

No, it doesn't. That is not where our money goes. Very little of it goes to dealing with undocumented workers and they arent exactly taking good jobs. They are working in fields and washing dishes - doing the jobs we wont do. Have you even been to the USA? Seems like you havent by your comment.

They're not just working on farms. They're also working in fields like construction and meat processing; jobs lower class Americans used to do. (Heck, construction jobs are or at least were lower middle class jobs.) Poor Americans can wash dishes, but not if those jobs are unavailable to them. Foreign worker visas can be issued for farmworkers in a controlled manner.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Again, that is backwards. The demand for jobs drove people to come here to fill them and hopefully have a better life. And for the record, no, I don't "want americans to work as dishwashers" I want us to stop acting like our problems are because of immigrants. history people, it need not repeat itself here.

So...in your view the government should manage our immigration policy to benefit the small percentage of Americans who own the businesses to the detriment of lower class Americans when market forces would otherwise dictate higher wages? In your view the government should maintain a large stable of impoverished Americans so that businesses can pay workers slave wages?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

You don't think that paying to educate millions of children of people that pay little or no taxes doesn't affect our education system?

This country spends on average $11K/yr per student. You don't think that a couple of millions children, while born here but who were born to illegal immigrants, has any effect on our education budget?

Don't forget health care. When an illegal shows up at the emergency room, guess who ends up paying for it.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I'd like to know how many people here think immigration is one of the top issues facing this country?

Count me in...and watch these must-watch videos:

Immigration Gumballs

Off the Charts

 

[retrospooty]

Bleeding heart liberal for sure, idiot - quite possibly. What continues to amaze me is that the people that consider themselves to be the smartest in any room haven't got one fucking lick of common sense.

Way to stereotype there. No, I am an independent and am registered that way. A lot of my "values" are old republican. You remember those don't you, small govt, a low tax business friendly environment, personal freedom, govt out of peoples lives and above all, personal responsibility. Remember personal responsibility? That is where each person is responsible for their own lot in life and has to go out and work hard for it. That does NOT include blaming all of your problems on immigrants. It means stand the f$%^ up and be an adult and take control of your life. Do I sound like a a BHL to you? If may often sound liberal because I think that modern reps social values are ridiculous. We may or may not all agree that immigration is a big problem, but I am 100% positive gay marriage isn't. FFS, who cares what 2 consenting adults do.

 

[retrospooty]

So...in your view the government should manage our immigration policy to benefit the small percentage of Americans who own the businesses to the detriment of lower class Americans when market forces would otherwise dictate higher wages? In your view the government should maintain a large stable of impoverished Americans so that businesses can pay workers slave wages?

That isnt at all what I said. I actually do think we need to control out border and stop the influx I just think we have bigger fish to fry first. Most of all, I want us to stop acting like our problems are because of immigrants. Man up America, you need to be responsible for your own life, not blame others for your inability to get by. - Personal responsibility.

 

[fskimospy]

You don't think that paying to educate millions of children of people that pay little or no taxes doesn't affect our education system?

This country spends on average $11K/yr per student. You don't think that a couple of millions children, while born here but who were born to illegal immigrants, has any effect on our education budget?

You think that the jobs we won't do ARE the jobs we won't do because we can't or won't do them for as cheaply as those illegal immigrants will?

The jobs we won't do are the way they are because an illegal can come here and pick vegetables for less than minimum wage. Legally no American IS ALLOWED to do that job for that price.

Fucking hell you're an goddam idiot.

The education is for the child, not the parents. You should look into the child's future tax contributions if you want to measure ROI.

 

[BoberFett]

I am not denying that immigration is ONE issue, but it is very low on the list of priorities. (Beside the fact that some proposed changes in immigration law are entirely unpractical, but that's another story).

The issue here is PRIORITIES.

It is indeed correct that "billionaires" are sending Jerbs offshore, this is going on very real or would you deny it? Who built your car and where? Who made your clothes? Who made your iPhone?

Priorities are screwed up since building a fricking wall doesn't address any of this. So you will have a bunch less illegals working less non-skilled under-the-table jobs in factories? Woopdeedoo! Spending billions of dollars on crap which won't have any measurable effect on the economy whatsoever.

I've never suggested building a wall. That's one of the dumbest proposals ever. Yeah, a wall, I'm sure no technology will ever be invented that can defeat the security that a wall provides.

I'm all for harshly punishing companies who hire illegal immigrants. That alone would solve most of the problem.

 

[BoberFett]

The education is for the child, not the parents. You should look into the child's future tax contributions if you want to measure ROI.

Simple thinking logically, the average American, whether born to citizens or not, does not pay enough in taxes over their lifetime to balance out the services they use. If they did, we wouldn't have an $18T and growing debt. Given that, the faster our population grows, the faster our deficit spending grows.

If our spending was under control, I'd agree with you. But it's not. So every new American is a burden rather than a benefit.