Has anyone tried RadeonPro for microstuttering?

Discussion in 'Video Cards and Graphics' started by wand3r3r, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. omeds

    omeds Senior member

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    You just need to set a cap that you can maintain. I use 59fps with vsync on 60hz displays, and 125 without vsync on 120hz displays, no problems.
     
  2. Plimogz

    Plimogz Senior member

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    Awesome! gotta try this if I ever find time to sit down to a game.
     
  3. boxleitnerb

    boxleitnerb Platinum Member

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    Exactly - that I can maintain, that is the problem.

    I used this in Skyrim for example. I played with 4xSSAA, so it was quite demanding for the GPUs. Outside in the forest I could have 40fps while at other locations or in dungeons I had a constant 60fps. Now if I cap the framerate at 40fps so I would not get microstutter in foresty locations, I lost a whooping 20fps everywhere else. That is just inacceptable.

    Of course I could just turn down the settings in order to reach a constant 60fps. But then a single GPU might do the trick too with maybe 40fps, but without microstuttering at half the cost. You see the problem right there, the compromise can be too severe.
     
  4. omeds

    omeds Senior member

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    Well, I only play games at a solid frame rate at or above my refresh rate in the first place, so they remain fluid. But sure if you play at 40 fps then it might be an issue.

    Sure occasionaly there might be a small drop, but if its maintaining my desired frame rate 95%+ of the time, I'm happy.
     
  5. Skurge

    Skurge Diamond Member

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    Isn't that what adaptive vsync or dynamic vsync does? Let the cards go up to 60fps when you are in dungions, but once you are in the forest it will limit the cards to 40FPS? or am I understanding this wrong?
     
  6. boxleitnerb

    boxleitnerb Platinum Member

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    It does, but when vsync is off below 60fps, microstutter will still exist during those periods. To combat microstutter all the time one needs either sufficiently high fps or the fps cap.
    I'm also not so convinced by this adaptive stuff. Below 60fps I would get tearing after all and I cannot stand that.
     
  7. pandemonium

    pandemonium Golden Member

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    It is a framerate cap, albeit a dynamic one. V-sync = frame rate cap to buffer each frame according to the display's Hz.

    All this does is lower the cap in more demanding scenes and raise it in less stressful ones and that results in each card in a multi-GPU setup being forced to generate equal frames at equal timings (or as equal as one can get).

    RadeonPro has been around for a long, long time, but I don't remember it having that function last I used it (it's been a while). So this being mentioned is pretty noteworthy for AMD owners and will probably be implemented soon enough with official catalyst packages.

    I'll have to test this myself though and see how well it works with my setup. Thanks for the link. :)
     
  8. boxleitnerb

    boxleitnerb Platinum Member

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    Could you maybe post a frametime diagram where one can see that? So far I only have seen constant values.
     
  9. pandemonium

    pandemonium Golden Member

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    Why would I need to? It's directly implied by the option in RadeonPro.

    Dynamic Framerate Control - Keep up to ## FPS:
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Skurge

    Skurge Diamond Member

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    I'd imagine something like a 2 stage cap would work. When over 60 it's limited to 60, when it drops below 60, you can set it to limit it to 40.
     
  11. boxleitnerb

    boxleitnerb Platinum Member

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    It works the same way with a normal fps limiter. If I limit to 50 and cannot keep 50, the cap will obviously have no effect.

    The question is:
    What happens to the frametimes if you go below the cap? Will they be smoothed out as well (which I doubt as it would be quite complicated)? If you have the tool and a CF setup, it wouldn't be too hard to post some results.

    @Skurge:

    That would be very very nice. I imagine Nvidias frame metering does something along those lines already.
     
  12. pandemonium

    pandemonium Golden Member

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    I'd love to post some results; when I'm at home and able to do so. :)

    Interestingly, I don't see this option in the changelog of the program and no recent updates in that log since February of 2011... So either the log isn't being update and new releases are being made, or this option has been around for a long time and has gone unnoticed, lol.
     
  13. Keysplayr

    Keysplayr Elite Member

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  14. omeds

    omeds Senior member

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    Well, without a frame rate cap, you would get ms ALL the time. At least by using a cap, you will reduce the occurance of ms. So no matter which way you slice it, using a cap is an improvement.

    The real issue is, you insist on playing with frame rates that are not fluid in the first place. If you had more GPU power or used less aggressive settings, you could achieve ms free AND fluid gameplay.

    The reason you get tearing with adaptive vsync, which is a separate issue, is because below 60fps vsync is disabled to prevent juddering when frame rates transition to below your refresh rate. Tearing below 60fps is the trade off. Again, if you played with fluid frame rates, you would not have this issue.
     
    #39 omeds, Nov 9, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  15. pandemonium

    pandemonium Golden Member

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    That was some confusing running around.

    For anyone else actually trying this, it's not available as an "official" release and by BETA only, from the BETA thread on guru3d forums.

    Updated beta changelog:
     
  16. boxleitnerb

    boxleitnerb Platinum Member

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    True, but it comes at a cost as I said. I buy mGPU to increase my settings in the first place. If I reduce settings a single GPU might do the trick without microstutter at slightly lower fps, depending on how much the scaling is affected by the cap.
    This problem gets worse when the framerate really fluctuates alot, lets say you have values from 30 to 90. Lowering settings so you would never drop below 60 would be a drastic step, negating the positive effect of mGPU altogether.

    It's like one step forward and one step back so to speak. If this thing truly were dynamic, then I'd be all for it. But as it stands (and I've experimented with static fps caps for over a year with my SLI setup), the downside can be really severe.
     
  17. omeds

    omeds Senior member

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    Well as with anything, if you want better quality you need the horsepower to do it.
     
  18. boxleitnerb

    boxleitnerb Platinum Member

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    That's not the point - the point is that depending on the game and your settings, most if not all of your horsepower could go to waste with an fps cap. I've explained why.

    The only two scenarios where this makes sense is limiting higher fps when not playing with vsync (and where usually no or little microstutter occurs) or when playing with vsync and limiting at 60 for perfect smoothness. vsync would ruin scaling anyway so it doesn't matter there.
     
  19. omeds

    omeds Senior member

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    It is the point. Your system cannot achieve the level of performance required at the settings you wish to use.

    Solution: Get more GPU horsepower or reduce settings, OR live with ms at choppy frame rates.

    Why does scaling above your refresh rate matter if you have max settings/SSAA/AO etc, at fluid frame rates anyway?
     
  20. cmdrdredd

    cmdrdredd Lifer

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    Maybe it affects input lag. Has anyone tested the input lag using this fps limiter?

    There are some titles where the difference between fps can be noticed even if both are consistent.
     
  21. omeds

    omeds Senior member

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    If you use a 59fps cap with vsync @ 60hz it helps reduce input lag immensely, while also helping to eliminate ms.

    I have never noticed input lag using a 125fps cap. I played online fps semi-competitively since '02 and have always used a 125 or 250 fps cap for online fps, for minimal tearing and smooth gameplay without vsync, even before I had my first MGPU setup, so afaic, a cap should be used for the best experience anyway, the fact it also greatly reduces ms is another benefit.
     
  22. boxleitnerb

    boxleitnerb Platinum Member

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    If you're not using vsync, that is a moot point. I was speaking about drops below 60 anyway.

    Third option:
    Implement frame metering that reduces ms without having to resort to using an fps cap ;)

    What you should consider is that 40fps@ single GPU != 40 fps@multi GPU. The former can be playable, the latter unplayable. Single GPU has a home advantage here, that is the significant point.

    Imagine this:

    • 4xSSAA and mGPU:
      min fps = 45, avg fps 70. With cap@40 not very well playable, without cap also not well playable
    • 2xSSAA and mGPU:
      min fps = 60, avg fps 100. With cap@60 very well playable, but cap not necessary because at higher fps microstutter becomes less noticeable usually. Also reduced image quality
    • 2xSSAA and sGPU:
      min fps = 35, avg fps 55. Reasonably well playable because sGPU > mGPU at the same framerate. Achieved at half the cost.
    Having an fps cap can solve one problem at the cost of introducing another, namely lower performance. It's different, but depending on the scenario not necessarily better.
     
    #47 boxleitnerb, Nov 9, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  23. omeds

    omeds Senior member

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    Personal preference, I find 40 fps fairly unplayable on either single or MGPU.

    In your first example with an average of 70 fps, why not cap it to 59/60/62/66? With an average of 70, how much of the time do you think it will be below 60?
    A majority of the time (when you can achieve 60fps) it will be better than without a cap, and a small amount of the time (when fps drop below 60) it will be exactly the same as you play now, without a cap. You don't lose anything, but gain smooth ms free gameplay most of the time.

    Sure, frame metering would be great and I'm all for it, but atm, you can get fluid, ms free gameplay if you have enough GPU performance.
     
    #48 omeds, Nov 9, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  24. nextJin

    nextJin Golden Member

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    This what I do with all of my games, I set a limiter to 59 with vsync on. There is no microstutter, little if any screen tearing, and no input lag (at least not like it is with Vsync on without the limiter)

    U3011 (60hz panel) w/ 7970 CF @ 1125/1625
     
  25. wand3r3r

    wand3r3r Diamond Member

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    Has anyone been able to test RadeonPro more thoroughly?

    How was it e.g. when the avg FPS is less then the vsync?
    Is it smooth, especially compared to not using it? What about compared to SLI?