HANS BLIX: A war of utter folly

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Iraq: Five years on

A war of utter folly

Hans Blix , Thursday March 20 2008 Article history
The Guardian


The invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a tragedy - for Iraq, for the US, for the UN, for truth and human dignity. I can only see one gain: the end of Saddam Hussein, a murderous tyrant. Had the war not finished him he would, in all likelihood, have become another Gadafy or Castro; an oppressor of his own people but no longer a threat to the world. Iraq was on its knees after a decade of sanctions.

The elimination of weapons of mass destruction was the declared main aim of the war. It is improbable that the governments of the alliance could have sold the war to their parliaments on any other grounds. That they believed in the weapons' existence in the autumn of 2002 is understandable. Why had the Iraqis stopped UN inspectors during the 90s if they had nothing to hide? Responsibility for the war must rest, though, on what those launching it knew by March 2003.

By then, Unmovic inspectors had carried out some 700 inspections at 500 sites without finding prohibited weapons. The contract that George Bush held up before Congress to show that Iraq was purchasing uranium oxide was proved to be a forgery. The allied powers were on thin ice, but they preferred to replace question marks with exclamation marks.

They could not succeed in eliminating WMDs because they did not exist. Nor could they succeed in the declared aim to eliminate al-Qaida operators, because they were not in Iraq. They came later, attracted by the occupants. A third declared aim was to bring democracy to Iraq, hopefully becoming an example for the region. Let us hope for the future; but five years of occupation has clearly brought more anarchy than democracy.

Increased safety for Israel might have been an undeclared US aim. If so, it is hard to see that anything was gained by a war which has strengthened Iran.

There are other troubling legacies of the Iraq war. It is a setback in the world's efforts to develop legal restraints on the use of armed force between states. In 1945 the US helped to write into the UN charter a prohibition of the use of armed force against states. Exceptions were made only for self-defence against armed attacks and for armed force authorised by the security council. In 2003, Iraq was not a real or imminent threat to anybody. Instead, the invasion reflects a claim made in the 2002 US national security strategy that the charter was too restrictive, and that the US was ready to use armed force to meet threats that were uncertain as to time and place - a doctrine of preventive war.

In the 2004 presidential election campaign, Bush ridiculed any idea that the US would need to ask for a "permission slip" before taking military action against a "growing threat". True, the 2003 Iraq invasion is not the only case in which armed force has been used in disregard of the charter. However, from the most powerful member of the UN it is a dangerous signal. If preventive war is accepted for one, it is accepted for all.

One fear is that the UN rules ignored in the attack on Iraq will prove similarly insignificant in the case of Iran. But it may be that the spectacular failure of ensuring disarmament by force, and of introducing democracy by occupation, will work in favour of a greater use of diplomacy and "soft power". Justified concerns about North Korea and Iran have led the US, as well as China, Russia and European states, to examine what economic and other non-military inducements they may use to ensure that these two states do not procure nuclear weapons. Washington and Moscow must begin nuclear disarmament. So long as these nuclear states maintain that these weapons are indispensable to their security, it is not surprising that others may think they are useful. What, really, is the alternative: invasion and occupation, as in Iraq?

· Hans Blix was head of UN inspections in Iraq in 2003 secretariat@wmdcommission.org

[/quote]

Blix is not entirely innocent himself. He should have spoken out against the invasion when he had the chance but chose to hide behind beaurocratic mumbo-jumbo. But that it is a war of utter folly is pretty obvious to most people.

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: GrGr
Iraq: Five years on

A war of utter folly

Hans Blix , Thursday March 20 2008 Article history
The Guardian


The invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a tragedy - for Iraq, for the US, for the UN, for truth and human dignity. I can only see one gain: the end of Saddam Hussein, a murderous tyrant. Had the war not finished him he would, in all likelihood, have become another Gadafy or Castro; an oppressor of his own people but no longer a threat to the world. Iraq was on its knees after a decade of sanctions.

The elimination of weapons of mass destruction was the declared main aim of the war. It is improbable that the governments of the alliance could have sold the war to their parliaments on any other grounds. That they believed in the weapons' existence in the autumn of 2002 is understandable. Why had the Iraqis stopped UN inspectors during the 90s if they had nothing to hide? Responsibility for the war must rest, though, on what those launching it knew by March 2003.

By then, Unmovic inspectors had carried out some 700 inspections at 500 sites without finding prohibited weapons. The contract that George Bush held up before Congress to show that Iraq was purchasing uranium oxide was proved to be a forgery. The allied powers were on thin ice, but they preferred to replace question marks with exclamation marks.

They could not succeed in eliminating WMDs because they did not exist. Nor could they succeed in the declared aim to eliminate al-Qaida operators, because they were not in Iraq. They came later, attracted by the occupants. A third declared aim was to bring democracy to Iraq, hopefully becoming an example for the region. Let us hope for the future; but five years of occupation has clearly brought more anarchy than democracy.

Increased safety for Israel might have been an undeclared US aim. If so, it is hard to see that anything was gained by a war which has strengthened Iran.

There are other troubling legacies of the Iraq war. It is a setback in the world's efforts to develop legal restraints on the use of armed force between states. In 1945 the US helped to write into the UN charter a prohibition of the use of armed force against states. Exceptions were made only for self-defence against armed attacks and for armed force authorised by the security council. In 2003, Iraq was not a real or imminent threat to anybody. Instead, the invasion reflects a claim made in the 2002 US national security strategy that the charter was too restrictive, and that the US was ready to use armed force to meet threats that were uncertain as to time and place - a doctrine of preventive war.

In the 2004 presidential election campaign, Bush ridiculed any idea that the US would need to ask for a "permission slip" before taking military action against a "growing threat". True, the 2003 Iraq invasion is not the only case in which armed force has been used in disregard of the charter. However, from the most powerful member of the UN it is a dangerous signal. If preventive war is accepted for one, it is accepted for all.

One fear is that the UN rules ignored in the attack on Iraq will prove similarly insignificant in the case of Iran. But it may be that the spectacular failure of ensuring disarmament by force, and of introducing democracy by occupation, will work in favour of a greater use of diplomacy and "soft power". Justified concerns about North Korea and Iran have led the US, as well as China, Russia and European states, to examine what economic and other non-military inducements they may use to ensure that these two states do not procure nuclear weapons. Washington and Moscow must begin nuclear disarmament. So long as these nuclear states maintain that these weapons are indispensable to their security, it is not surprising that others may think they are useful. What, really, is the alternative: invasion and occupation, as in Iraq?

· Hans Blix was head of UN inspections in Iraq in 2003 secretariat@wmdcommission.org

Blix is not entirely innocent himself. He should have spoken out against the invasion when he had the chance but chose to hide behind beaurocratic mumbo-jumbo. But that it is a war of utter folly is pretty obvious to most people.

[/quote]

Good post until the end - the attack on Hans Blix is unfair. He did his job, and did criticize the invasion, and was the target of an attack campaign by the Bush administration.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
When Hans can explain why he thinks UN weapons inspections matter at all in the long run when he couldn't find something the size of an industrial centrifuge buried in a rose garden, then he can go shoot his mouth off. Until then, his views are basically irrelevant.

Chuck
 

Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
647
0
0
Originally posted by: chucky2
When G.W. Bush can explain why he thinks pre-emptive wars are useful at all in the long run when he couldn't do anything in Iraq that he said he would, then he can go shoot his mouth off. Until then, his views are basically irrelevant.

Chuck

Fixed
 
D

Deleted member 4644

Originally posted by: chucky2
When Hans can explain why he thinks UN weapons inspections matter at all in the long run when he couldn't find something the size of an industrial centrifuge buried in a rose garden, then he can go shoot his mouth off. Until then, his views are basically irrelevant.

Chuck

um.. er.. are you suggesting that there *were* WMD in Iraq?
 

Firebot

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2005
1,476
2
0
Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
Originally posted by: chucky2
When Hans can explain why he thinks UN weapons inspections matter at all in the long run when he couldn't find something the size of an industrial centrifuge buried in a rose garden, then he can go shoot his mouth off. Until then, his views are basically irrelevant.

Chuck

um.. er.. are you suggesting that there *were* WMD in Iraq?

Didn't you see Powell's UN presentation and all those mobile bioweapon vehicles that were all over the place and easily found as soon as the US entered Iraq...oh wait:confused:
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
The Iraq hit pieces are coming out in numbers this year, just in time for our election season.

This isn't the first, and it won't be the last.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Originally posted by: JS80
I thought Hans Brix got eaten by a shark.
You're really stepping up the quality of your responses. :thumbsup:
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: GrGr
Iraq: Five years on

A war of utter folly

Hans Blix , Thursday March 20 2008 Article history
The Guardian


The invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a tragedy - for Iraq, for the US, for the UN, for truth and human dignity. I can only see one gain: the end of Saddam Hussein, a murderous tyrant. Had the war not finished him he would, in all likelihood, have become another Gadafy or Castro; an oppressor of his own people but no longer a threat to the world. Iraq was on its knees after a decade of sanctions.

The elimination of weapons of mass destruction was the declared main aim of the war. It is improbable that the governments of the alliance could have sold the war to their parliaments on any other grounds. That they believed in the weapons' existence in the autumn of 2002 is understandable. Why had the Iraqis stopped UN inspectors during the 90s if they had nothing to hide? Responsibility for the war must rest, though, on what those launching it knew by March 2003.

By then, Unmovic inspectors had carried out some 700 inspections at 500 sites without finding prohibited weapons. The contract that George Bush held up before Congress to show that Iraq was purchasing uranium oxide was proved to be a forgery. The allied powers were on thin ice, but they preferred to replace question marks with exclamation marks.

They could not succeed in eliminating WMDs because they did not exist. Nor could they succeed in the declared aim to eliminate al-Qaida operators, because they were not in Iraq. They came later, attracted by the occupants. A third declared aim was to bring democracy to Iraq, hopefully becoming an example for the region. Let us hope for the future; but five years of occupation has clearly brought more anarchy than democracy.

Increased safety for Israel might have been an undeclared US aim. If so, it is hard to see that anything was gained by a war which has strengthened Iran.

There are other troubling legacies of the Iraq war. It is a setback in the world's efforts to develop legal restraints on the use of armed force between states. In 1945 the US helped to write into the UN charter a prohibition of the use of armed force against states. Exceptions were made only for self-defence against armed attacks and for armed force authorised by the security council. In 2003, Iraq was not a real or imminent threat to anybody. Instead, the invasion reflects a claim made in the 2002 US national security strategy that the charter was too restrictive, and that the US was ready to use armed force to meet threats that were uncertain as to time and place - a doctrine of preventive war.

In the 2004 presidential election campaign, Bush ridiculed any idea that the US would need to ask for a "permission slip" before taking military action against a "growing threat". True, the 2003 Iraq invasion is not the only case in which armed force has been used in disregard of the charter. However, from the most powerful member of the UN it is a dangerous signal. If preventive war is accepted for one, it is accepted for all.

One fear is that the UN rules ignored in the attack on Iraq will prove similarly insignificant in the case of Iran. But it may be that the spectacular failure of ensuring disarmament by force, and of introducing democracy by occupation, will work in favour of a greater use of diplomacy and "soft power". Justified concerns about North Korea and Iran have led the US, as well as China, Russia and European states, to examine what economic and other non-military inducements they may use to ensure that these two states do not procure nuclear weapons. Washington and Moscow must begin nuclear disarmament. So long as these nuclear states maintain that these weapons are indispensable to their security, it is not surprising that others may think they are useful. What, really, is the alternative: invasion and occupation, as in Iraq?

· Hans Blix was head of UN inspections in Iraq in 2003 secretariat@wmdcommission.org

Blix is not entirely innocent himself. He should have spoken out against the invasion when he had the chance but chose to hide behind beaurocratic mumbo-jumbo. But that it is a war of utter folly is pretty obvious to most people.

[/quote]

You're an idiot if you think that Hans Blix's job even came close to speaking about an invasion, he had no authority in that case and neither did the UN, for the UN and Hans an invasion was out of the question before officially sanctioned and there was NEVER any evidence even near justifying an invasion, in fact, it is fairly well known that the inspections were not allowed to continue BECAUSE they were removing more and more of the cause for warfare.

 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: chucky2
When Hans can explain why he thinks UN weapons inspections matter at all in the long run when he couldn't find something the size of an industrial centrifuge buried in a rose garden, then he can go shoot his mouth off. Until then, his views are basically irrelevant.

Chuck

They were known before the invasion, hell, they were the basis of the "nuclear centrifuge" bullshit that Powell tried to present when he got laughed out of the UN, the amount of work it would take to make these old missile aluminium covers to work as a centrifuge would be greater than to construct them with fucking aluminum kettles, this is WELL known and if you managed to miss this information you must be very selective in what you watch.

I repeat, no centrifuges were found, no WMD's that were not already in storage were found, of course, the US didn't secure the UN storage facility because they honestly believed that if that shit was stolen (which it was) then they could claim they found WMD's, the problem was that it was useless because of age and neutralising agents that the UN inspectors added to the barrels of chemicals.

Stop trying to defend the invasion, it was stupid and you are trying to show off that stupidity by claiming shit every thinking human knows to be false.

Hans Blix was right, the US was WRONG, i know it is hard to take but thats a fact that not even GW tries to deny anymore.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
Originally posted by: chucky2
When Hans can explain why he thinks UN weapons inspections matter at all in the long run when he couldn't find something the size of an industrial centrifuge buried in a rose garden, then he can go shoot his mouth off. Until then, his views are basically irrelevant.

Chuck

um.. er.. are you suggesting that there *were* WMD in Iraq?

They ALREADY USED WMDs goober is your history book broken?
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
Originally posted by: chucky2
When Hans can explain why he thinks UN weapons inspections matter at all in the long run when he couldn't find something the size of an industrial centrifuge buried in a rose garden, then he can go shoot his mouth off. Until then, his views are basically irrelevant.

Chuck

um.. er.. are you suggesting that there *were* WMD in Iraq?

They ALREADY USED WMDs goober is your history book broken?

You mean the ones given to them by the USA?

What the FUCK does that have to do with the situation at the time of the invasion? NOTHING and you know that you stupid twat.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: Deleted member 4644
Originally posted by: chucky2
When Hans can explain why he thinks UN weapons inspections matter at all in the long run when he couldn't find something the size of an industrial centrifuge buried in a rose garden, then he can go shoot his mouth off. Until then, his views are basically irrelevant.

Chuck

um.. er.. are you suggesting that there *were* WMD in Iraq?

They ALREADY USED WMDs goober is your history book broken?

You mean the ones given to them by the USA?

What the FUCK does that have to do with the situation at the time of the invasion? NOTHING and you know that you stupid twat.

Calm down junior he was wrong wrong wrong. He got owned by himself and you are making yourself look like an ASS.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: GrGr
Iraq: Five years on

A war of utter folly

Hans Blix , Thursday March 20 2008 Article history
The Guardian


The invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a tragedy - for Iraq, for the US, for the UN, for truth and human dignity. I can only see one gain: the end of Saddam Hussein, a murderous tyrant. Had the war not finished him he would, in all likelihood, have become another Gadafy or Castro; an oppressor of his own people but no longer a threat to the world. Iraq was on its knees after a decade of sanctions.

The elimination of weapons of mass destruction was the declared main aim of the war. It is improbable that the governments of the alliance could have sold the war to their parliaments on any other grounds. That they believed in the weapons' existence in the autumn of 2002 is understandable. Why had the Iraqis stopped UN inspectors during the 90s if they had nothing to hide? Responsibility for the war must rest, though, on what those launching it knew by March 2003.

By then, Unmovic inspectors had carried out some 700 inspections at 500 sites without finding prohibited weapons. The contract that George Bush held up before Congress to show that Iraq was purchasing uranium oxide was proved to be a forgery. The allied powers were on thin ice, but they preferred to replace question marks with exclamation marks.

They could not succeed in eliminating WMDs because they did not exist. Nor could they succeed in the declared aim to eliminate al-Qaida operators, because they were not in Iraq. They came later, attracted by the occupants. A third declared aim was to bring democracy to Iraq, hopefully becoming an example for the region. Let us hope for the future; but five years of occupation has clearly brought more anarchy than democracy.

Increased safety for Israel might have been an undeclared US aim. If so, it is hard to see that anything was gained by a war which has strengthened Iran.

There are other troubling legacies of the Iraq war. It is a setback in the world's efforts to develop legal restraints on the use of armed force between states. In 1945 the US helped to write into the UN charter a prohibition of the use of armed force against states. Exceptions were made only for self-defence against armed attacks and for armed force authorised by the security council. In 2003, Iraq was not a real or imminent threat to anybody. Instead, the invasion reflects a claim made in the 2002 US national security strategy that the charter was too restrictive, and that the US was ready to use armed force to meet threats that were uncertain as to time and place - a doctrine of preventive war.

In the 2004 presidential election campaign, Bush ridiculed any idea that the US would need to ask for a "permission slip" before taking military action against a "growing threat". True, the 2003 Iraq invasion is not the only case in which armed force has been used in disregard of the charter. However, from the most powerful member of the UN it is a dangerous signal. If preventive war is accepted for one, it is accepted for all.

One fear is that the UN rules ignored in the attack on Iraq will prove similarly insignificant in the case of Iran. But it may be that the spectacular failure of ensuring disarmament by force, and of introducing democracy by occupation, will work in favour of a greater use of diplomacy and "soft power". Justified concerns about North Korea and Iran have led the US, as well as China, Russia and European states, to examine what economic and other non-military inducements they may use to ensure that these two states do not procure nuclear weapons. Washington and Moscow must begin nuclear disarmament. So long as these nuclear states maintain that these weapons are indispensable to their security, it is not surprising that others may think they are useful. What, really, is the alternative: invasion and occupation, as in Iraq?

· Hans Blix was head of UN inspections in Iraq in 2003 secretariat@wmdcommission.org

Blix is not entirely innocent himself. He should have spoken out against the invasion when he had the chance but chose to hide behind beaurocratic mumbo-jumbo. But that it is a war of utter folly is pretty obvious to most people.

You're an idiot if you think that Hans Blix's job even came close to speaking about an invasion, he had no authority in that case and neither did the UN, for the UN and Hans an invasion was out of the question before officially sanctioned and there was NEVER any evidence even near justifying an invasion, in fact, it is fairly well known that the inspections were not allowed to continue BECAUSE they were removing more and more of the cause for warfare.

Heh, my point was exactly that he chose to be 'professional' in the strict meaning of a beaurocrat. He like the whole UN basically just rolled over when the US went ahead anyway, like everybody knew the Bushies would. But just as Hans says in his little piece here, that action by the US (and UK et al) was a huge setback for international law, the UN itself and of course a big tragedy in the spiral of death it unleashed. I am just disappointed the UN (and Blix) rolled over so easily when it was obvious the UN's prestige itself was at stake. But yeah, yeah I know it is pretty pointless whining. Blame the criteria for a forced comment if nothing else.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
This is in response to basically everyone who replied to me above, I'll try and clear up where I'm coming from:

First, I could care less about what the UN thinks, or Hans Blix. The UN is basically one big clusterf*ck...it can't get out of its own way, let alone accomplish anything unless the US or smaller big nations actually step and and do what 100's of countries are supposed to be doing cooperatively - the F'ing UN can't even get 24 motherF'ing helicopters for Sudan...the state of IL could do that if it needed to. The UN has no problems wanting the US to do its bidding, yet when the US wants to act in its interests, the UN/other certain nations can't wait to shoot their mouths off. In short, F the UN. The US should withdraw from it and let the whiny @ss EU nations stand on their own, it's well past WWII and far past the time to do so.

Second, with #1 out of the way, if I'm the POTUS, shortly after 9/11, I'm not going to show the rest of the sh1tpot Leadership in the rest of the world that I'm going to F around with Saddam playing the World yet again with yet another meaningless unenforced UN resolution. The message to them was essentially start cleaning or helping us clean up your act, or the hammer will drop on you. Having Saddam make fools of the World yet once again basically tells every sht1tpot dictator out there that it's just the blabbering US/West again...that'd be a F-tard message to send post 9/11.

Moreover, the job of the weapons inspectors is so overwhelmingly stacked against finding programs in the long term, that it's basically a feel good measure for the World that we're "trying our best" and "doing something". This is why I gave the industrial centrifuge example...that was buried there for years. Years Blix/the UN had to find it, yet they didn't even know it existed, and that's just a F'ing centrifuge, a throwaway piece of equipment. What other stuff did they miss? Where did it go? What was it? Did it even exist? Who might have it now if it did exist? Did the talent that made it survive past creation (if it even existed) or are they dead?

In short: Do I ever want the POTUS to assume that nothing exists becaues the elite Hans says it doesn't??? Uh, F no thanks, I don't think so. I'll take proactive over reactive anyday.

The real reality is that it doesn't matter that then SuperHans wasn't finding any weapons. It doesn't F'ing matter. What matters is that Saddam's long term intent is to get WMD, and as soon as the World relaxes and gets complacent (which it absolutely will, we can already see none of the other countries other than UK wanted the status quo to change, they were making way too much money), he - or his even less stable sons once he was gone - would have sought them again. This is not drinking the "Bush&Co" koolaid, this is using common sense and past intent/actions. Lets see, we already have Iran going the nuke route, with Saddam having WMD, that'd basically mean the ME would be a whole lot harder to exert influence over. Want to send a carrier task force to project power? Well, that's sorta hard when two nations over there can nuke it. Stage forces in SA, Kuwait, or even UAE? Not a great proposition when they can be turned into ashes with one strike. Saddam/Iran having WMD is like us playing poker with them and having half our cards face up on the table...why would we ever take that route given the stakes?

To JoS specifically:

I know you're PO'd at how going into Iraq made the resources that should have been available in Afghanistan/Pakistan go bye bye - I don't argue that one bit. Bush and many others all down the chain of command have misF'd many things, no arguement there at all. We should have been pressing building Afghanistan/destroying the Taliban more than we are now all along. Along with helping the Afghani's rebuild their country to way more degree than we have done.

That doesn't take away from getting rid of Saddam, or the long term ME benefits that may happen as long as we make Iraq work.

I await the flames, time for a tan it's Spring Break season...

Chuck
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: chucky2
The UN is basically one big clusterf*ck...
:beer: I'll drink to that...

Yea me too..

Lienenkugels? Berry Wiess! yum :)

Seriously thought the UN are a bunch of S-bag pimps.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: chucky2
The UN is basically one big clusterf*ck...
:beer: I'll drink to that...

I like how the US runs to the UN 150 times a month with complaints and then discards it when it doesn't jump when the US says jump.

The UN is the sum of the nations involved, the US under GW has behaved like a kid in kindergarten who got his way because of who he is.

I applaud the UN for taking a stand against Somalia, something the US doesn't dare to do because China supports them and the US is basically becoming the puppet of China.

China says jump, so JUMP palehorse.
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: chucky2
The UN is basically one big clusterf*ck...
:beer: I'll drink to that...

I like how the US runs to the UN 150 times a month with complaints and then discards it when it doesn't jump when the US says jump.

The UN is the sum of the nations involved, the US under GW has behaved like a kid in kindergarten who got his way because of who he is.

I applaud the UN for taking a stand against Somalia, something the US doesn't dare to do because China supports them and the US is basically becoming the puppet of China.

China says jump, so JUMP palehorse.

You are a child right Highschooler? Is this what your teacher said?
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: chucky2
This is in response to basically everyone who replied to me above, I'll try and clear up where I'm coming from:

First, I could care less about what the UN thinks, or Hans Blix. The UN is basically one big clusterf*ck...it can't get out of its own way, let alone accomplish anything unless the US or smaller big nations actually step and and do what 100's of countries are supposed to be doing cooperatively - the F'ing UN can't even get 24 motherF'ing helicopters for Sudan...the state of IL could do that if it needed to. The UN has no problems wanting the US to do its bidding, yet when the US wants to act in its interests, the UN/other certain nations can't wait to shoot their mouths off. In short, F the UN. The US should withdraw from it and let the whiny @ss EU nations stand on their own, it's well past WWII and far past the time to do so.

Second, with #1 out of the way, if I'm the POTUS, shortly after 9/11, I'm not going to show the rest of the sh1tpot Leadership in the rest of the world that I'm going to F around with Saddam playing the World yet again with yet another meaningless unenforced UN resolution. The message to them was essentially start cleaning or helping us clean up your act, or the hammer will drop on you. Having Saddam make fools of the World yet once again basically tells every sht1tpot dictator out there that it's just the blabbering US/West again...that'd be a F-tard message to send post 9/11.

Moreover, the job of the weapons inspectors is so overwhelmingly stacked against finding programs in the long term, that it's basically a feel good measure for the World that we're "trying our best" and "doing something". This is why I gave the industrial centrifuge example...that was buried there for years. Years Blix/the UN had to find it, yet they didn't even know it existed, and that's just a F'ing centrifuge, a throwaway piece of equipment. What other stuff did they miss? Where did it go? What was it? Did it even exist? Who might have it now if it did exist? Did the talent that made it survive past creation (if it even existed) or are they dead?

In short: Do I ever want the POTUS to assume that nothing exists becaues the elite Hans says it doesn't??? Uh, F no thanks, I don't think so. I'll take proactive over reactive anyday.

The real reality is that it doesn't matter that then SuperHans wasn't finding any weapons. It doesn't F'ing matter. What matters is that Saddam's long term intent is to get WMD, and as soon as the World relaxes and gets complacent (which it absolutely will, we can already see none of the other countries other than UK wanted the status quo to change, they were making way too much money), he - or his even less stable sons once he was gone - would have sought them again. This is not drinking the "Bush&Co" koolaid, this is using common sense and past intent/actions. Lets see, we already have Iran going the nuke route, with Saddam having WMD, that'd basically mean the ME would be a whole lot harder to exert influence over. Want to send a carrier task force to project power? Well, that's sorta hard when two nations over there can nuke it. Stage forces in SA, Kuwait, or even UAE? Not a great proposition when they can be turned into ashes with one strike. Saddam/Iran having WMD is like us playing poker with them and having half our cards face up on the table...why would we ever take that route given the stakes?

To JoS specifically:

I know you're PO'd at how going into Iraq made the resources that should have been available in Afghanistan/Pakistan go bye bye - I don't argue that one bit. Bush and many others all down the chain of command have misF'd many things, no arguement there at all. We should have been pressing building Afghanistan/destroying the Taliban more than we are now all along. Along with helping the Afghani's rebuild their country to way more degree than we have done.

That doesn't take away from getting rid of Saddam, or the long term ME benefits that may happen as long as we make Iraq work.

I await the flames, time for a tan it's Spring Break season...

Chuck

Before the US invaded Iraq Islamic terrorism was not the main terrorism activity, it has blossomed since then, i've been to Iraq too and i've seen the "progress" that is non-existent.

You're damn right i am PO'd for the removal of troops from the WoT to go fight a personal vendetta that Cheney and Wolfowitz had planned for more than ten years, don't tell me that isn't the reason, that WAS the reason and you can bet your arse that they were delighted when 9/11 happened, giggling like schoolgirls, but let's deny reality and lets say that the UN wasn't right, that Hans wasn't right and that the US actually believed the bullshit spewed... Where the fuck is the easter bunny, i mean he is MORE real than that crock of shit.

Iraq is a bullshit war and the ONLY reason people don't like the UN is because they don't jump when the US says jump, because the US made fools of themselves with "evidence" that the experts could just dismiss and non experts were sceptical of, the UN could be great but not as a US puppet organisation as many would like it to be.

I'm sick of this and when i go home in June i will quit, i get no support from home either, Iraq is more important for England too, prestige, bullshit and candy arses is the fucking problem, it's changed even more since February and if you'd ask anyone who knows his head from his arse they'd know why.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: chucky2
The UN is basically one big clusterf*ck...
:beer: I'll drink to that...

I like how the US runs to the UN 150 times a month with complaints and then discards it when it doesn't jump when the US says jump.

The UN is the sum of the nations involved, the US under GW has behaved like a kid in kindergarten who got his way because of who he is.

I applaud the UN for taking a stand against Somalia, something the US doesn't dare to do because China supports them and the US is basically becoming the puppet of China.

China says jump, so JUMP palehorse.

You are a child right Highschooler? Is this what your teacher said?

No, wise and beautiful woman, i am a captain in the SAS, stationed in Afghanistan.

And you forgot to jump.

That is a completely unacceptable personal attack, and you've been warned about that before. We'll see you in a week.

Rainsford
AnandTech Politics and News Moderator
 

EXman

Lifer
Jul 12, 2001
20,079
15
81
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: EXman
Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: chucky2
The UN is basically one big clusterf*ck...
:beer: I'll drink to that...

I like how the US runs to the UN 150 times a month with complaints and then discards it when it doesn't jump when the US says jump.

The UN is the sum of the nations involved, the US under GW has behaved like a kid in kindergarten who got his way because of who he is.

I applaud the UN for taking a stand against Somalia, something the US doesn't dare to do because China supports them and the US is basically becoming the puppet of China.

China says jump, so JUMP palehorse.

You are a child right Highschooler? Is this what your teacher said?

No, wise and beautiful woman, i am a captain in the SAS, stationed in Afghanistan.

And you forgot to jump.

(Edited to add moderator response)

That is a completely unacceptable personal attack, and you've been warned about that before. We'll see you in a week.

Rainsford
AnandTech Politics and News Moderator

Time for bed Junior right after you wash that mouth out! ;)

Anyways the U.N. = SCUM of the nations involved.