[haaretz] Woman in Beit Shemesh attacked by ultra-Orthodox extremists

[Rainsford]

Religion should be replaced by self, community and the state.

The issue is that religion fits in a particular spot in human psychology that ideology alone can't quite replace. It's a lot more powerful for some people to believe that God supports their views rather than some other justification for thinking what they think and doing what they do.

Even doing things for your community or country is still just doing things for people, which doesn't quite have the same impact (in the minds of some, at least).

 

[Nebor]

The issue is that religion fits in a particular spot in human psychology that ideology alone can't quite replace. It's a lot more powerful for some people to believe that God supports their views rather than some other justification for thinking what they think and doing what they do.

Even doing things for your community or country is still just doing things for people, which doesn't quite have the same impact (in the minds of some, at least).

Right, but those that could be happy working for the betterment of community and state wouldn't have a problem killing off those that couldn't. :biggrin:

 

[Idontcare]

One person throwing a rock is not a stoning, change the title.

^^^ this

Sounds like the OP is the one who is stoned.

The title is:

Nothing close to what you claim.

Personally, I hope they lock them away for a long time...or even better, Banish them to the Gaza Strip.

^^^ this

Sounds like the OP is the one who is stoned.

The title is:




Nothing close to what you claim.

Personally, I hope they lock them away for a long time...or even better, Banish them to the Gaza Strip.

By trying to equate the event in your OP to an actual stoning just does the opposite actually. You have shown the other side of the story to not be as bad in this case. I bet quite a few saw the title and were expecting some women was stoned to death, which wasn't the case.

Titles that are intentionally not in keeping with the spirit of the cited article will be infracted as flameaiting. Community vigilance is key.

Please use the report-post feature (the

icon located below the Post count for the member who's post is to be reported) as the best means to alert the moderators to violations such as this.

Administrator Idontcare

 

[Whiskey16]

One person throwing a rock is not a stoning, change the title.

I suggest you try a little harder to become suitably informed:

Let's all remove our bias and be honest in our world where not only one demeaned group of religious zealots have a monopoly upon "stoning.:

Israel police: A dozen extremist Jews attack woman hanging posters near Jerusalem Men in Beit Shemesh pelted victim with stones and slashed her car's tires

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says about a dozen ultra-Orthodox men in the town of Beit Shemesh surrounded the woman on Tuesday, pelted her with stones and slashed her car's tires.

A stoning is a stoning.

The OP's topic concerns a Middle Eastern Stoning of a Woman Wearing Western Dress.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I suggest you try a little harder to become suitably informed:

Let's all remove our bias and be honest in our world where not only one demeaned group of religious zealots have a monopoly upon "stoning.:

A stoning is a stoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning

"Stoning, or lapidation, is a form of capital punishment whereby a group throws stones at a person until the person dies."

The OP's topic concerns a Middle Eastern Stoning of a Woman Wearing Western Dress.

Tossing stones is not the same as a stoning, unless you want to claim that the Palestinians are committing stonings against Israeli troops every time they toss a rock in their direction. Do you really want to claim that?

 

[Whiskey16]

TastesLikeChicken, out of a partisan bias, you and others may play all the semantics games that you desire.

When one is being struck by rocks/stones (notice: plural) there is certainly an intent to inflict personal harm and the present chance such harm may be fatal. In the occupied territories, there are certainly precedents of the IDF firing live ammunition and killing opposing rock tossers. What are they reacting to and with lethal force?

Would you be more argumentively unsatisfied if the woman was killed? I am quite thrilled that she was not severely hurt nor killed, yet that does not negate the dogmatic symbolism of "pelting stones" upon this woman by Orthodox loonies nor their intent to harm her.

We are present for discussion, and I will make the suitable and honest effort to submit relevent content to support corrections and contributions to a topic.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

TastesLikeChicken, out of a partisan bias, you and others may play all the semantics games that you desire.

When one is being struck by rocks/stones (notice: plural) there is certainly an intent to inflict personal harm and the present chance such harm may be fatal. Would you be more argumentively satisfied if the woman was killed?

We are present for discussion, and I will make the suitable and honest effort to submit relevent content to support corrections and contributions to a topic.

It's not semantics, it's definitions. If the woman WAS killed it could rightly be called a stoning. However, she wasn't so, therefore, no stoning. Trying to twist it into "stoning" is far more than just being partisan. It delves deeper into fastidiously held ideologies that employ rhetoric and hyperbole in a very weak attempt to equivocate. iow, it's lame, dude. Very lame. Not to mention pathetic.

Edit: I should also make it clear that these Jewish extremists should be beaten down for their idiocy. If they want to enforce their moronic beliefs amongst those who wish to adhere to them, fine. But don't expect an outsider to toe the line on their stupid religious beliefs.

 

[Infohawk]

It's not semantics, it's definitions. If the woman WAS killed it could rightly be called a stoning. However, she wasn't so, therefore, no stoning.

Even then it might not qualify. If you throw a rock at someone and kill them it's still not what most sources consider stoning unless it's a public ritual done by a fairly large group as a form of capital punishment, as explained in the Wikipedia link you posted. It's a stretch to suggest that a kid who accidentally kills another kid by throwing a rock is a stoning situation.

Trying to twist it into "stoning" is far more than just being partisan. It delves deeper into fastidiously held ideologies that employ rhetoric and hyperbole in a very weak attempt to equivocate. iow, it's lame, dude. Very lame. Not to mention pathetic.

Absolutely. The funny thing is that in the moderation thread I've only ever seen him try to suggest that people who disagree with his political views be punished. And he has the audacity to ask other people not to be partisan.

 

[JSt0rm]

the entire middle east is a cultural mess.probably take another 100 years before they can climb out of this shithole they are steeped in

 

[Whiskey16]

It's not semantics, it's definitions. If the woman WAS killed it could rightly be called a stoning. However, she wasn't so, therefore, no stoning.

Oh, let's play this semantics game a little further:

Mashiah said she managed to get out of the car and started to flee the scene when she was hit on the head by a rock. She ran to a nearby building with members of the crowd in pursuit, but said that at that point the police cruiser arrived. "When they saw the lights of the police car, they ran away," she said.

It was inconveniently interrupted.

I am not unreasonable. Let's semantically compromise and call it a:

mid-stoning
failed stoning
partial stoning

Guys, let's be up front. The gig is up, and the bias and errors have been called out. The facts are that many of you will not accept that not only extremist Muslims are guilty of re-enacting ancient brutality that was written in the Torah.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Oh, let's play this semantics game a little further:

It was inconveniently interrupted.

I am not unreasonable. Let's semantically compromise and call it a:

mid-stoning
failed stoning
partial stoning

Guys, let's be up front. The gig is up, and the bias and errors have been called out. The facts are that many of you will not accept that not only extremist Muslims are guilty of re-enacting ancient brutality that was written in the Torah.

Let's be up front indeed. When Muslims stone someone to death under their laws nobody is arrested and tried for it. If this woman had been killed by a stone it's very lkely one or more of those Jewish extremists would have been arrested, tried, and jailed for the act.

That's the difference.

 

[JSt0rm]

Noun1.

lapidation - the act of pelting with stones; punishment inflicted by throwing stones at the victim (even unto death)stoning
corporal punishment - the infliction of physical injury on someone convicted of committing a crime

 

[JSt0rm]

hmm so stoning can occur without death per this definition. Certainly not a clear cut case.

 

[JSt0rm]

In practice

Further information: Corporal punishment (Judaism)
There are only scarce mentions of such a punishment being actually legally inflicted. There are three cases in the Bible (see list below) in which a person was stoned to death as a punishment. But there are also five or six cases where someone was stoned by a mob, or not in a legal fashion.


^^ from wiki


Stoned by a mod or not in legal fashion appears to be very fashionable.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

In practice

Further information: Corporal punishment (Judaism)
There are only scarce mentions of such a punishment being actually legally inflicted. There are three cases in the Bible (see list below) in which a person was stoned to death as a punishment. But there are also five or six cases where someone was stoned by a mob, or not in a legal fashion.


^^ from wiki


Stoned by a mod or not in legal fashion appears to be very fashionable.

Excellent. So we should expect you to immediately report the stoning of Israeli troops the next time Palestinians throw rock at them. We'll all be waiting with baited breath for that thread.

 

[Whiskey16]

Thank you, JSt0rm, for contributing the certainty of stoning (lapidation) not absolutely equating to death, nor of all Torah writings of stoning resulting in the victims death.

When Muslims stone someone to death under their laws nobody is arrested and tried for it.

Your bigotry is strong. All Muslims? All Muslims states? No.

Off the top of my head I can think of numerous states with Muslim majorities where such an action is criminal: Algeria, Tunisia, Turkey, Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc... From that Wikipedia article upon stoning, it is stated that only 7 states have stoning as being codified into law. I suggest you try harder for some false equivalency.

No, TastesLikeChicken, and the rest, I do believe that in marginal time of religious studies, these Orthodox extremists did not become quite aware of what was meant to pick up stones to strike at that woman.

As how this thread has progressed and the number of substantive clarifications that have been made, it will be quite interesting to see what tangent discourse will take by morning.

 

[JSt0rm]

Excellent. So we should expect you to immediately report the stoning of Israeli troops the next time Palestinians throw rock at them. We'll all be waiting with baited breath for that thread.

I'm just saying its not as cut and dry as it would appear. Shades of grey and all.

I dont really post in the threads about this issue.

 

[davmat787]

I'm with TastesLikeChicken, I thought we were discussing, and using, the capital punishment version of the word 'stoning' here. But the extra history on other types of stoning is interesting.

 

[JSt0rm]

I'm with TastesLikeChicken, I thought we were discussing, and using, the capital punishment version of the word 'stoning' here. But the extra history on other types of stoning is interesting.

Well maybe the op was using the corporal punishment version of the word?

Do people get to petition to have thread titles changed when they don't like the usage of a word?

We see here mostly those who always rise up to defend Israel rise up to have the wording changed. So what was the real purpose of having the wording changed?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I'm just saying its not as cut and dry as it would appear. Shades of grey and all.

I dont really post in the threads about this issue.

So would you agree that this was a "stoning?"

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/isr...ew-rocks-at-their-car-causing-it-to-overturn/

 

[JSt0rm]

So would you agree that this was a "stoning?"

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/isr...ew-rocks-at-their-car-causing-it-to-overturn/

While that is a horrible thing that happened I wouldn't because the stones didn't hit them directly. It was still murder though and the Israelis have every right to defend themselves.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

While that is a horrible thing that happened I wouldn't because the stones didn't hit them directly. It was still murder though and the Israelis have every right to defend themselves.

"“It was clearly a terrorist attack, Asher’s gun had been stolen, there were rocks inside the vehicle and it was clear Asher was hit by a rock,” "

 

[JSt0rm]

just so you know my gf is jewish and her cousin (a good friend of mine) is orthodox and serious business about it. I'm not taking sides in this age old argument as the issue is way too complicated for a black and white answer. What I do know is the title of the thread indicated that the women was haveing rocks thrown at her and that is indeed what happened.

Orthodox Jewish faith and Islam have a LOT of things in common. More then most care to admit but my friend isn't allow to touch me (like a hug) and she must cover most of her body when in public (not head scarves but still). I respect her choice and it was clearly a choice but the cultures of the region have a lot in common. I think people are hyper sensitive to this issue and try to have titles of threads changed so as to not appear to be similar.

 

[JSt0rm]

"“It was clearly a terrorist attack, Asher’s gun had been stolen, there were rocks inside the vehicle and it was clear Asher was hit by a rock,” "

ok. I just read the title. Does that make me a bad person? Am I now the expert and judge of all stoning crimes?

 

[Infohawk]

Well maybe the op was using the corporal punishment version of the word?

Do people get to petition to have thread titles changed when they don't like the usage of a word?

We see here mostly those who always rise up to defend Israel rise up to have the wording changed. So what was the real purpose of having the wording changed?

Come on. Read the OP and quoted text again. This woman was attacked by a mob and as part of that attack someone threw a stone at her. It's like saying a baseball game is a dancing event because a few people do a couple moves on the jumbotron when music is played. Please, it's a not a dancing event it's a sporting event.

Do you accept wikipedia as a source of authority on the term stoning? Wictonary? It is clear from these sources that a stoning is a form of public/capital punishment. The target is pretty much subdued when it happens; they are in the custody of the punishers. This event doesn't fit that description.

I have stated (and so has tasteslikechicken) that this event is bad. Yet that doesn't mean it's equivalent to what most commonly goes on in Muslim countries. Tell me when there contemporary (not from Biblical times) stories of communities stoning a woman according to the above definitions, and I will agree with you that it's the same stoning.