Gun noob question: Training with hollow point vs FMJ

[sourceninja]

I'm fairly sure anyone could hit bruce lee with a bat.

It would require a shovel and some time...

Martial arts are not some kind of magic that lets you just disarm anyone and win any fight. On top of that 99% of all martial artists never have someone seriously try to hit them with a real weapon. The odds are in my favor, even with no training in how to use a bat. Hell the odds are in anyone holding a bats favor.

BTW, what was Bruce Lee's recorded, verified fight record again?

 

[alkemyst]

wow...just wow. You definitely should buy a gun and maybe retain a zombie army. You will need them all.

 

[nick1985]

i'm pretty sure my weak hollow point pussy rounds coming out of my ruger lcp will leaving your azz on the ground at 7 yards...

Possibly. hollow points out of a .380 suck dick. Once it does through my jacket and my shirt/clothing it wont have much stopping power compared to a 9/357 sig/40

I'm sorry if I offended your .380. Might want to check out some ballistics

 

[nick1985]

the .380 acp is a very effective round

not really

 

[sourceninja]

not really

How many people have you shot and not killed with .380? I mean you must have direct personal experience right? Or can you point to some study of .380 gunshot wounds?

 

[nick1985]

How many people have you shot and not killed with .380? I mean you must have direct personal experience right? Or can you point to some study of .380 gunshot wounds?

I dont have to personally shoot and kill someone with it to know its a sub-standard round when compared to other alternatives.

Go do a little research for yourself.



*edit*

I'm assuming you wont google it for yourself, so here it is.

Gelatin tests for .380

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/380acp.htm

Gelatin tests for 9mm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm

Gelatin tests for 357 sig

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357sig.htm


Check out the penetration AND expansion. World of difference

 

[sourceninja]

All those tests tell me nothing. I've read them. How far a bullet goes into jello really doesn't tell me what it's going to do to the human ribcage, heart and lugs. How it will effect blood loss and how fast a person can die from it.

From my perspective, having a dime sized hole go 12 inches into my body (that's almost to my spine btw) is not something I'm really keen on. I've seen no hard evidence that people shot with .380 rounds are often so unfazed they keep fighting rather then flee or stop.

 

[alkemyst]

I dont have to personally shoot and kill someone with it to know its a sub-standard round when compared to other alternatives.

Go do a little research for yourself.



*edit*

I'm assuming you wont google it for yourself, so here it is.

Gelatin tests for .380

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/380acp.htm

Gelatin tests for 9mm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm

Gelatin tests for 357 sig

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/357sig.htm


Check out the penetration AND expansion. World of difference

I guess if you are shooting jello you should go with a .44 or .357 magnum. Hell maybe a DE or 12 guage pistol.

Seriously.

 

[RagingBITCH]

All those tests tell me nothing. I've read them. How far a bullet goes into jello really doesn't tell me what it's going to do to the human ribcage, heart and lugs. How it will effect blood loss and how fast a person can die from it.

From my perspective, having a dime sized hole go 12 inches into my body (that's almost to my spine btw) is not something I'm really keen on. I've seen no hard evidence that people shot with .380 rounds are often so unfazed they keep fighting rather then flee or stop.

A few random incidents don't make for hard evidence. I was reading this yesterday and it makes some good points about statistics, analysis, and bullet type:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

I really have no real opinion on .380 vs others though. I'll just prop my feet up and enjoy the show.

 

[LTC8K6]

People are almost never stopped with a single shot, unless it hits the brain or brainstem or spinal cord. The idea that you shoot someone and they are immediately incapacitated is Hollywood nonsense for the most part.

If you shoot a man with a 9mm or .380 or .45ACP, it will most likely be quite a while before he is "stopped". He will have plenty of time to continue trying to harm you.

Many real life cases have shown this to be true. An LAPD police woman was shot in the chest with a .357 magnum round, and the round went clean through her and put a hole in the bottom of her heart. She did not stop trying to do her job for more than a minute after being center punched by a .357 magnum. It was quite a while before that devastating hit made her unable to return fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhSACg_QWz4

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-06-11/local/me-61_1_policewoman-shot

Many police shootouts have shown time and time again that unless you hit the brain or spine, there's no such thing as a manstopper round, except maybe a load of 00 buck in the chest.

You need the most effective round you can handle, and you need to keep putting holes in the bad guy until he stops.

A 380 is just not very effective, but it's a lot better than an empty hand.

 

[meltdown75]

i think i'm gonna go shoot my gun this spring! w00t

i have an old single-shot .22. i'm gonna shoot some cans, yo!

 

[nick1985]

All those tests tell me nothing.

Try re-reading then

I've seen no hard evidence that people shot with .380 rounds are often so unfazed they keep fighting rather then flee or stop.

I can tell you have not googled this claim at all. If you had, you would find dozens of specific cases where this happens, as well as other ballistic evidence showing the .380 to be relatively innefective when compared to a 9, 357 sig, etc.

How far a bullet goes into jello really doesn't tell me what it's going to do to the human

Thats not jello. Its called ballistic gelatin. Here is some more reading for you.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_gelatin

Allow me to highlight the pertinent fields:

"Ballistic gelatin closely simulates the density and viscosity of human and animal muscle tissue, and is used as a standardized medium for testing the terminal performance of firearms ammunition. While ballistic gelatin does not model the structure of the body, including skin and bones, it works fairly well as an approximation of tissue and provides similar performance for most ballistics testing. Ballistic gelatin is used rather than actual muscle tissue due to the ability to carefully control the properties of the gelatin, which allows consistent and reliable comparison of terminal ballistics."

This differs from the "jello" brand jello that you assumed this test was.

Sorry for your mix-up

 

[nick1985]

I guess if you are shooting jello

See above post.

 

[sourceninja]

Try re-reading then



I can tell you have not googled this claim at all. If you had, you would find dozens of specific cases where this happens, as well as other ballistic evidence showing the .380 to be relatively innefective when compared to a 9, 357 sig, etc.





Thats not jello. Its called ballistic gelatin. Here is some more reading for you.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_gelatin

Allow me to highlight the pertinent fields:

"Ballistic gelatin closely simulates the density and viscosity of human and animal muscle tissue, and is used as a standardized medium for testing the terminal performance of firearms ammunition. While ballistic gelatin does not model the structure of the body, including skin and bones, it works fairly well as an approximation of tissue and provides similar performance for most ballistics testing. Ballistic gelatin is used rather than actual muscle tissue due to the ability to carefully control the properties of the gelatin, which allows consistent and reliable comparison of terminal ballistics."

This differs from the "jello" brand jello that you assumed this test was.

Sorry for your mix-up

Actually I know what ballistic gelatin is. I called it jello because I don't buy the whole ballistic gelatin idea. Even your own quote says it does not model the structure of the body. Which means while it lets you see how a bullet expands in 'tissue', it really doesn't show you what it will do to a rib cage.

The fact really comes down to this, do you want 6 rounds of .380 in your chest? Do you know anyone who is personally ok with it? Do you know any cops who would say a .380 is not a deadly weapon? If someone pulled a .380 on you, would you be scared?

It's sufficient for self defense. As I've said above, more people in the US have been killed by .22LR then any other round.

It is not a matter of relative effectiveness. It is 'will this kill what I shoot'. A .380 is going to kill what I shoot. So is my 9mm, my .40, my .357, and even my .22 if used properly.

This is like arguing over if you can kill someone better with a 5 inch blade or a 6.5 inch blade...

 

[nick1985]

Actually I know what ballistic gelatin is. I called it jello because I don't buy the whole ballistic gelatin idea. Even your own quote says it does not model the structure of the body. Which means while it lets you see how a bullet expands in 'tissue', it really doesn't show you what it will do to a rib cage.

Let me ask you a question then. Do you feel the .380 will tear through a rib just as well as a 9mm, 357 sig, 40?

The fact really comes down to this, do you want 6 rounds of .380 in your chest? Do you know anyone who is personally ok with it? Do you know any cops who would say a .380 is not a deadly weapon? If someone pulled a .380 on you, would you be scared?

What silly questions. Of course the answers are no, but that is not what I am debating. If you are in a scuffle and can only get off 1, maybe 2 rounds, and shot placement is questionable, would you feel ok with a .380? Would you feel more confident with a 357 sig, or any other more powerful round?

As I've said above, more people in the US have been killed by .22LR then any other round.

This is due to the sheer number of .22's out there. Not because the .22 is more powerful than a 45 (or any other round). Think about it. If there are 50 million .22's out there, and only 3 million .45's, of course more people will get killed with the .22, that doesnt make it a more powerful round.

A .380 is going to kill what I shoot.

Maybe. My whole point is that your odds of killing what you shoot, especially in a street scuffle or a defense situation, are far higher with a more potent round. So why limit yourself to a .380 when there are more powerful rounds in compact/sub-compact?

 

[alkemyst]

See above post.

jesus son. no shit.

you and sourceninja should hang out and kick ass together.

 

[nick1985]

i lie

i know

 

[alkemyst]

prove any lie I have told. Have you even put more than 100 rounds thorough any gun yet?

 

[nick1985]

prove any lie I have told.

Please. /eyeroll

Have you even put more than 100 rounds thorough any gun yet?

What statements of mine lead you to believe I have yet to shoot a firearm more than 100 times? Or are you just talking out of your asshole, a per the norm?

Unlike yours, my statements on these forums are true.

 

[alkemyst]

usually it's those telling the lies that suspect everyone else is.

anytime you are ready, just let me know what I have lied about. I think the last time someone called me out on something I posted my acceptance letters to whereever it was.

 

[nick1985]

blah blah blah I'm full of shit and I argue with someone every time I post blah blah blah

Tell you what alkemyst, next time I head to the range I'll take a pic of 100 spent shells and put my name on them.

I probably cant shoot as well as you though. I'm sure you went through some spec-ops training by the government when you were younger and you can shoot the wings off a fly at 100 yards with a hand gun.

 

[alkemyst]

Tell you what alkemyst, next time I head to the range I'll take a pic of 100 spent shells and put my name on them.

I probably cant shoot as well as you though. I'm sure you went through some spec-ops training by the government when you were younger and you can shoot the wings off a fly at 100 yards with a hand gun.

seriously though...you are the one that follows my threads. No special ops training, but I have been shooting for 20+ years. More than you have been alive.

keep doubting me though.

 

[nick1985]

seriously though...you are the one that follows my threads. No special ops training, but I have been shooting for 20+ years. More than you have been alive.

keep doubting me though.

20+ years may or may not be more than I have been alive, old man.

I dont doubt you alkemyst. Nobody doubts you. You are the greatest human ever born. You have the wit of Yoda, the presence of mind of Steven Segael, the strength of superman, and the looks of fabio. You are the ultimate. ALL HAIL

 

[alkemyst]

thanks, carry on.

 

[sourceninja]

Let me ask you a question then. Do you feel the .380 will tear through a rib just as well as a 9mm, 357 sig, 40?



What silly questions. Of course the answers are no, but that is not what I am debating. If you are in a scuffle and can only get off 1, maybe 2 rounds, and shot placement is questionable, would you feel ok with a .380? Would you feel more confident with a 357 sig, or any other more powerful round?




This is due to the sheer number of .22's out there. Not because the .22 is more powerful than a 45 (or any other round). Think about it. If there are 50 million .22's out there, and only 3 million .45's, of course more people will get killed with the .22, that doesnt make it a more powerful round.




Maybe. My whole point is that your odds of killing what you shoot, especially in a street scuffle or a defense situation, are far higher with a more potent round. So why limit yourself to a .380?

Weight, control, clothing constraints, size, concealment options, etc.

I would love to carry a desert eagle on me everywhere I go so I can put a big .50 into the bad guys. But I'm logical. I need a tool that functions well, is small enough to carry IWB on my frame with the clothing I wear. For me that is a walther PPS (9mm), for my wife that is a Ruger LCP (.380). I don't think a SA XD 45 is going to fit in her right jeans and form fitting shirts. I also don't think she wants to carry around 4 pounds of plastic and metal.

I like the fact that I can carry my gun with a dress shirt, pants, and belt. No need to buy special clothing or look baggy to carry it. It will still do the job, and that job is putting holes into people. Both of the guns mentioned in this post can put 6-7 holes into someone. If they still want to fight at that point, well then I guess I'm fucked. I still highly doubt it.

I still feel my wife is as safe with her .380 as she would be carrying my 9mm. I mean based on this logic, no one should carry anything but full sized .45 and larger pistols. The links in this thread all say smaller barrels reduce penetration and power. They also say round size is very important. a .380 and a 9mm are the same sized round. They also have about the same penetration on smaller barreled 9mm (like the PPS). (From reading the links in this thread). Thus I can't just carry 9mm, I need to carry full sized 9mm. The difference in the size of the gun from full sized 9mm to full sized .40 or .45 is nothing. Only weight. So why not lug around a full sized SA XD 45? Sure I'll look like an idiot, need to buy bigger pants and longer shirts. I'll never wear a short sleeved shirt or tshirt again, and I'll need to wear a giant cowboy belt. But in the super super rare chance I ever need to kill someone, I'm good.

Or I can compare my risk vs my discomfort and pick a firearm that I can carry comfortably and that I enjoy shooting. I've been around far too many gun nuts who swear that I need to have 20+ rounds of .40 on me to have 'real defense'. BTW I've been shooting for over 23 years. I started when I was 6.