Gun noob question: Training with hollow point vs FMJ

[Kelvrick]

Hmm... When I think about how to say it. I "practice" with the cheaper fmj stuff. For creating muscle memory of the controls of the gun, clearing jams, drawing and firing from concealment. I'd run at least 1-2 boxes of my chosen jhp through my sd weapon as well as the magazines. I'd also make sure to keep the same ammo, from the same lot ready to be used and regularly run through my weapon.

Otherwise, I don't see that much of a difference. When under stress, the differences in ammo are barely noticeable to me. Afterwards, I can't even really tell the difference between the DA and SA pulls.

 

[0roo0roo]

Pussy.

This is a gun

http://www.geekologie.com/2010/02/chinese_gangs_now_rocking_hand.php

 

[jlee]

If you are going to carry, you need to dress around the best weapon for you. Not get a gun that fits your current style of dress. If you want a gun that will save your life, you should get the best gun you can get. If you are not willing to adapt to the best tool you can get, you are not really ready.
I can carry a compact pistol (Glock 19/23, HK P2000) In a IWB holster all day long with no issue. I've taken naps on the couch with them on.
For pocket carry, I have a Taurus .38 that I carry in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster.
I can carry either or both in slacks, button up shirt and a tie.

My Ruger LCP is much more comfortable to carry than my Glock 36 (without wearing a jacket/long shirt/etc). With a Crossbreed mini-tuck, you can hardly feel it's there. The gun on you is always better than the gun left at home. The "best tool I can get" is a rifle, and I'm not going to carry that around all day.

 

[sourceninja]

If you are going to carry, you need to dress around the best weapon for you. Not get a gun that fits your current style of dress. If you want a gun that will save your life, you should get the best gun you can get. If you are not willing to adapt to the best tool you can get, you are not really ready.
I can carry a compact pistol (Glock 19/23, HK P2000) In a IWB holster all day long with no issue. I've taken naps on the couch with them on.
For pocket carry, I have a Taurus .38 that I carry in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster.
I can carry either or both in slacks, button up shirt and a tie.

While true, I still disagree. The clothing you wear should be included in the best gun for you. If I live in a cold climate where layers of clothing are normal, then I could carry my full sized P99 without issue. In a hot climate where I need shorts and a tshirt, I'm not going to conceal that thing (would look like a huge growth under my shirt). Thus I would need to pick a smaller firearm.

I carry a walther PPS. It's small 9mm and holds 7 rounds. I can conceal it with nothing more then a IWB holster and a tshirt. It's also light, doesn't require a huge belt and doesn't hurt to sit on.

So the factors imho to concider are:
1) Do you like how the gun shoots
2) Does the gun meet the duty requirements
3) Do you like the weight of the gun
4) Can you carry the gun with your style of dress

In terms of the .380 vs 9mm debate. I personally see nothing wrong with .380. The bullet is basically the same thing (.9mm, .38, .357 . 380 all the same essentially). The difference is just bullet weight. When you look over ballistic charts you will see the 9mm Luger does more damage on average, but the .380 (9mm Short) still does very respectable damage against flesh and bone.

Example: (From a quick google)

Hornady 124-gr. HP/XTP (9mm)
Velocity (fps): 998
Standard Deviation (fps): 20
Average Upset (Inches): .405
Average Penetration (Inches): 14.24
Wound Volume (cu/in): 1.83
Wound Area (sq/in): 18.12

compared to

Hornady 90-gr. HP/XTP (.380)
Velocity (fps): 906
Standard Deviation (fps): 13
Average Upset (Inches): .406
Average Penetration (Inches): 11.25
Wound Volume (cu/in): 1.46
Wound Area (sq/in): 14.34

That's not a whole lot of difference. Personally, I wouldn't want to get shot with either of these. This is of course assuming guns with similar barrel lengths. The real issue with .380 is with the accuracy and reliability of the firearm. Because of their cheapness and small size, many .380 pistols really suck outside of very close range and have feeding issues (or very picky about ammo). For self defense, close range is usually all you get so the first complaint is a non-issue, but the feeding can be a real problem. So make sure you train often with your carry of choice.

Lastly, on to the OP question. You should fire some HP ammo from time to time though your weapon (I shoot it usually once or twice a year). This allows me to slowly rotate though my HP stock, to be used to the more powerful rounds (more kick, etc) that I will shoot in self defense, and to test that my firearm still likes and feeds those rounds. Anytime you buy new HP ammo you should shoot at least 2 or 3 of them out of your weapon to verify it feeds properly. Once this is done, shooting cheap FMJ ammo is fine for keeping your skills sharp.

 

[edro]

Definitely agree. This morning when stepping off the train, some asshole shoved a 380 in my face demanding my money. I was all like... get that pussy gun out of my face! So he shot me 4 times in the chest and now I gotta go through the hassle of getting the shirt dry cleaned tomorrow to get the wrinkles out.

LOL

You will not notice any difference between FMJ and JHP at the range.

Using FMJ as personal protection is perfectly fine as well.
FMJ still puts a hole through a body cavity.

 

[Pegun]

In theory the rounds should feel the same when fired. Therefore, it's more of an issue of if your prepared to pull and fire and have the muscle control, mental control and speed to do so safely and accurately.

 

[nick1985]

The bullet is basically the same thing (.9mm, .38, .357 . 380 all the same essentially).

Come on, the difference between 357 sig and a 380 is night and day. Everyone knows this.

 

[jlee]

In theory the rounds should feel the same when fired. Therefore, it's more of an issue of if your prepared to pull and fire and have the muscle control, mental control and speed to do so safely and accurately.

The bullet itself, no. However, a hot defense load could have more recoil than target ammo; +P vs regular target stuff, for example. Similar to birdshot vs slug, but not quite so pronounced.

 

[Zargon]

The bullet itself, no. However, a hot defense load could have more recoil than target ammo; +P vs regular target stuff, for example. Similar to birdshot vs slug, but not quite so pronounced.

not to mention, I target shoot 114grain FMJ Winchester White Box, but I load 147grain JHP's for PD.

That is going to be a hotter load with more kick coming out of the gun.

and anyone who thinks 9mm and 38 is the same or 357 hasnt seen many bullets let alone fired them.

thats like calling .22 and .223 the same thing

I agree with most of the posts, run a box of 50 of PD through it to make sure it feeds, my Taurus Mil Pro wont feed something as aggressive as Federal Hyrashock, but feeds Remmington and Winchester PD stuff all day because the hydrashock is too aggressively square up front to feed right.

but you can also tell 90% of feed issues by dry racking a few mags through the gun too

 

[JulesMaximus]

The bullet itself, no. However, a hot defense load could have more recoil than target ammo; +P vs regular target stuff, for example. Similar to birdshot vs slug, but not quite so pronounced.

Hollow points may have feed issues with some guns too. It is a good idea to at least put a box or two of the load you are planning on carrying through your gun before relying on it regularly.

 

[sourceninja]

not to mention, I target shoot 114grain FMJ Winchester White Box, but I load 147grain JHP's for PD.

That is going to be a hotter load with more kick coming out of the gun.

and anyone who thinks 9mm and 38 is the same or 357 hasnt seen many bullets let alone fired them.

thats like calling .22 and .223 the same thing

I agree with most of the posts, run a box of 50 of PD through it to make sure it feeds, my Taurus Mil Pro wont feed something as aggressive as Federal Hyrashock, but feeds Remmington and Winchester PD stuff all day because the hydrashock is too aggressively square up front to feed right.

but you can also tell 90% of feed issues by dry racking a few mags through the gun too

I reload .357 and 9mm. The bullet is essentially the same. The difference as I said is weight and powder. In fact, a quick google search shows many people just suggesting you use 9mm bullets less then 115 grains. Unlike .22 and .223 where you couldn't just stick a .22 bullet on the end of a .223 case and call it a day. So yes, 9mm and .380 are the same bullet.

Sure it's not 147 grain, but you could shoot 115 grain 9mm if you wanted to. Personally, I don't think hotloaded heavy 9mm rounds do that much more then a conservative 9mm round. I use 124 grain Hornady for defense personally. I'd use 115 grain, but I can't usually find it (HP that is).

 

[spidey07]

I was always taught to fire some from a magazine or two of your defense round every now and then just to make sure they feed and fire correctly. Not every round, just the magazines and rounds you intend on using. Test them out every now and then.

 

[bruceb]

Practice with standard FMJ ammo .. it is much cheaper. Keep the good stuff for use in the gun for defense (some states do not allow hollow points, so check local laws)
At the range, you are only looking to hit the target, so FMJ will be fine for that.

 

[thepd7]

Thanks, good to know. Main reason I'm going for 380 is ease of carry. I move around a lot during the day, want something I can conceal in a polo and a pair of cargo shorts that won't stick out of my pocket/clothing or into me. Haven't found much in that regard above 380. The reduced weight is also a plus. I'd imagine a .380 hp will still do the job if I aim right. Hence the shitload of trigger time.

You will need a shit shitload of trigger time, especially if you plan on carrying with hollow points.

Definitely agree. This morning when stepping off the train, some asshole shoved a 380 in my face demanding my money. I was all like... get that pussy gun out of my face! So he shot me 4 times in the chest and now I gotta go through the hassle of getting the shirt dry cleaned tomorrow to get the wrinkles out.

You laugh but that could happen. Less likely with hollow points but still very possible.

Make sure to run a 1-2 boxes of .380 through your carry gun just to ensure 100% reliability with hollow points.

Other than that, yeah practice with FMJ.

For a small 9mm, look at the Keltec PF9. Dimensionally it should be quite close to their .380 offering (P3AT) and the weight is probably close too.

Agreed, definitely find a small 9mm.

LOL

You will not notice any difference between FMJ and JHP at the range.

Using FMJ as personal protection is perfectly fine as well.
FMJ still puts a hole through a body cavity.

That's only correct if the grain is the same. At the range I can feel a difference between my 115 grain FMJ and my 140 gr JHP. Most hollow points have a significantly higher grain since they are defnese rounds.


Bottom line OP: I have a full-size 9mm and a Ruger LCP .380. First off, I had to put 10 boxes through the LCP to feel comfortable carrying. Second, it doesn't matter how good you are, you won't be great at distances greater than 15 feet. If this is a car/carry for only personal protection that's fine, just don't expect to be ended any mall shootouts with your .380. Third, .380 is SO damn expensive, even the range ammo. 9mm is half as much.

I highly recommend looking at a small 9mm. I am going to sell my LCP because it's a great gun but not the right gun for me.

 

[dmw16]

I'd suggest firing a few magazines (20-40 rounds) worth of the ammo you are planning to use for self defense just to ensure it feeds properly.

Beyond that, just use whatever you can get cheap for target shooting. I shoot regular Winchester whitebox when I take my Glock19 to the range, but I keep Corbon hollow points in it when it's home for self-defense. I put a box worth of Corbons thru just to be sure, but in the case of a glock it will feed pretty much anything.

 

[Q]

FMJ makes you shoot through walls better.

 

[nick1985]

FMJ makes you shoot through walls better.

and skulls

 

[Skitzer]

Thanks, good to know. Main reason I'm going for 380 is ease of carry. I move around a lot during the day, want something I can conceal in a polo and a pair of cargo shorts that won't stick out of my pocket/clothing or into me. Haven't found much in that regard above 380. The reduced weight is also a plus. I'd imagine a .380 hp will still do the job if I aim right. Hence the shitload of trigger time.

These are good little highly concealable affordable 9mm semi-autos.
http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/item.aspx?PID=59376&w=PQ+JDyOLrQE=
Has a little kick to it cause it's very light and small but is very accurate and I never had a single FTF or any other problem with it.
I used to have one but traded it for a full size Taurus PT99af.
This one http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/13590

 

[irishScott]

I think there's a 99.9% chance he'll never even need to use it in self defense.

Haha, I wouldn't got that far. I drive a lot. I've been forced to gas up in some shady-ass places, blown out a tire in a questionable part of town once (at night), gotten weird looks from some biker guys when making a pit stop in rural Maryland (can't figure out why to this day), and once walked out with take-out in the best clean, modern, known to be safe, half-pure-yuppie area of town to find an Hispanic gangbanger (confirmed the earring as a gang sign) inspecting the inside of my car in broad daylight (got a death glare out of him).

Granted I was able to avoid/defuse all situations without a firearm, but while I did everything I could I attribute some of that to luck. If that luck ever goes to shit, a firearm would be a welcome option.

So I'd say more like a 90% chance I'll never need to use it.

 

[irishScott]

These are good little highly concealable affordable 9mm semi-autos.
http://www.midwesthuntersoutlet.com/item.aspx?PID=59376&w=PQ%2BJDyOLrQE=
Has a little kick to it cause it's very light and small but is very accurate and I never had a single FTF or any other problem with it.
I used to have one but traded it for a full size Taurus PT99af.
This one http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/13590

Yeah the alleged kickback is what turned me off. I'm sure you can train for it, and I'm not small by any means, but it'll still mean more required training, more required accuracy under stress (less ability to reacquire the target), and still a little bulkier/heavier than the bodyguard.

I'd have to rent/borrow one and fire it myself to see how much of an issue it is.

And it doesn't have a LASER!

Edit: Seriously though, that laser could be a nice deterrent if God forbid I do have to draw the thing, and helpful for what it is.

 

[highland145]

Surprised no one has posted this. http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2074&cid=4
Fed 2010. Review of 9 .380's

For what it's worth, my brother in law is in the FBI and they use the same weight rounds for practice and real world, fmj and jhp. 165 gr.

I have the same pocket as Jeff and a Glock 27 .40 ankle, because I drive a lot. Can't get to the pocket if I'm sitting on my ass.

 

[Zargon]

I reload .357 and 9mm. The bullet is essentially the same. The difference as I said is weight and powder. In fact, a quick google search shows many people just suggesting you use 9mm bullets less then 115 grains. Unlike .22 and .223 where you couldn't just stick a .22 bullet on the end of a .223 case and call it a day. So yes, 9mm and .380 are the same bullet.

Sure it's not 147 grain, but you could shoot 115 grain 9mm if you wanted to. Personally, I don't think hotloaded heavy 9mm rounds do that much more then a conservative 9mm round. I use 124 grain Hornady for defense personally. I'd use 115 grain, but I can't usually find it (HP that is).

yes 357 and 9 are pretty close, but someone saying 45 and 9mm are essentially the same is just wrong. Same design of course! its handgun ammo, 45 is waaaaaaaaaaay bigger

I cant find any 357 sig thats not magnum around here, and it kicks like a sonofabitch

and all the 38 I have been around shoots really really easy

I dont fire hot rounds, no reason to put unneeded stress on the gun. Just a heavier round for more energy. 13% more in the 147 compared to the 114 target ammo. add in the fact that its a JHP instead of FMJ and it should so alot more damage

would I use 114? sure, but since I can generally get the 147(and its not like it gets used often) I figure why not, its not that much pricer for that 50 rounds or so I buy of it a year.

the lowest grain JHP 9mm I have found is 117 remmington at my local farm and fleet, thats what I ran through my taurus and my buddy I sold it to does now, since it feeds well.

I dont own any hydra shock ETC because 50 bucks for 20 rounds is crazy. and i dont fire +p because its just extra wear and tear on the gun that I dont need


EDIT:

actually the 147 jhps I fire have less energy, but it shouldnt need as much, and less energy if god forbid I am having to discharge in my house is a good thing, the HP should make up for it

this is all going of info from ammodepot's catalog BTW

 

[nick1985]

Surprised no one has posted this. http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2074&cid=4
Fed 2010. Review of 9 .380's

yep, they suck.

 

[highland145]

FWIW: I order form Natchez and Cheaper Than Dirt. They ship right to my office, quickly.

 

[sourceninja]

yes 357 and 9 are pretty close, but someone saying 45 and 9mm are essentially the same is just wrong. Same design of course! its handgun ammo, 45 is waaaaaaaaaaay bigger

I cant find any 357 sig thats not magnum around here, and it kicks like a sonofabitch

and all the 38 I have been around shoots really really easy

I dont fire hot rounds, no reason to put unneeded stress on the gun. Just a heavier round for more energy. 13% more in the 147 compared to the 114 target ammo. add in the fact that its a JHP instead of FMJ and it should so alot more damage

would I use 114? sure, but since I can generally get the 147(and its not like it gets used often) I figure why not, its not that much pricer for that 50 rounds or so I buy of it a year.

the lowest grain JHP 9mm I have found is 117 remmington at my local farm and fleet, thats what I ran through my taurus and my buddy I sold it to does now, since it feeds well.

I dont own any hydra shock ETC because 50 bucks for 20 rounds is crazy. and i dont fire +p because its just extra wear and tear on the gun that I dont need


EDIT:

actually the 147 jhps I fire have less energy, but it shouldnt need as much, and less energy if god forbid I am having to discharge in my house is a good thing, the HP should make up for it

this is all going of info from ammodepot's catalog BTW

Yea there is no way I would say a 45 is the same as a 9. I was just saying that .380, .38, .357, and 9mm are all the same essentially. (same diameter bullet). The difference is just the weight and the powder which only slightly varies (excluding 357mag of course).