Gun noob question: Training with hollow point vs FMJ

[nick1985]

I was just saying that .380, .38, .357, and 9mm are all the same essentially. (same diameter bullet). The difference is just the weight and the powder which only slightly varies (excluding 357mag of course).

Similar size bullet, except the 380 is by far and away the weakest out of those.

 

[ussfletcher]

Yeah the alleged kickback is what turned me off. I'm sure you can train for it, and I'm not small by any means, but it'll still mean more required training, more required accuracy under stress (less ability to reacquire the target), and still a little bulkier/heavier than the bodyguard.

I'd have to rent/borrow one and fire it myself to see how much of an issue it is.

And it doesn't have a LASER! 😀

Edit: Seriously though, that laser could be a nice deterrent if God forbid I do have to draw the thing, and helpful for what it is.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you ever have to draw your weapon you won't be using it as just a visual deterrent.

 

[jlee]

Hollow points may have feed issues with some guns too. It is a good idea to at least put a box or two of the load you are planning on carrying through your gun before relying on it regularly.

This is true. My (cheap) 1911 wouldn't fire more than a few hollowpoints before jamming.

 

[sourceninja]

Similar size bullet, except the 380 is by far and away the weakest out of those.

Only marginally compared to 9mm however. Personally, I believe shot placement and firearm/bullet quality matter a lot more then if you shoot 9mm, .38, or .380. To me the problem is a lack of good quality, accurate, .380's. It's easy to find high quality 9mm pistols. A lot of the .380's out there (even ruger's nice little LCP that my wife carries) seem to be finicky.

Which is why I carry a PPS 9mm. However I would feel just as safe with a high quality .380 at my site any day. Hell I've read that the .22LR has killed more people in the US then any other round. In fact in many cases the .22LR is used to kill cattle and hogs. If it can put down a 2000 pound bull, it can put down a man just as easily.

Further more, reading a lot of news articles where firearms have saved lives, in many cases the subject is scared off by the gun firing at them or wounding them. It seems less common that the subject is killed by the person with the firearm.

Sure we all want the movie style instant kill with 10 foot knock back. There is no sure fire way to kill someone in one shot except accuracy. If you can't carry comfortably, or hit shit with it, it's useless. But if you can put a .22LR in the eye, neck, or heart, you have a show stopping round.

Hell my great uncle took a shotgun blast point blank to the face and survived. Yet I watched a guy on cops get shot in the leg with a small caliber firearm and bleed out waiting on the ambulance.

Which is why I say find the gun you are happy with, the one you can carry comfortably with minimal life style impact. Then carry it everyday. And if that first shot doesn't have stopping power... shoot the bastard again.

 

[sourceninja]

This is true. My (cheap) 1911 wouldn't fire more than a few hollowpoints before jamming.

Many 1911's were designed to shoot FMJ. If you want to shoot hollow point you will need to do some work on it. This is why kimber and the SA loaded 1911's got popular. They did all the custom work 'out of the box' so to speak. It's rare now however that modern 1911's will not shoot hollow point.

Your gun may have needed a break in period or some work done on it.

 

[jlee]

Many 1911's were designed to shoot FMJ. If you want to shoot hollow point you will need to do some work on it. This is why kimber and the SA loaded 1911's got popular. They did all the custom work 'out of the box' so to speak. It's rare now however that modern 1911's will not shoot hollow point.

Your gun may have needed a break in period or some work done on it.

It definitely needed some work done on it (polished feed ramp/etc). I didn't particularly care for it though (AutoOrdnance), so I sold it.

 

[irishScott]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if you ever have to draw your weapon you won't be using it as just a visual deterrent.

Well for legal reasons given the opportunity I'll probably give a warning before firing. A red dot on the chest I can point out is intimidating. Granted it depends entirely on the situation, but it's plausible. That and it could serve as a backup for the regular sights if I'm using it in the dark.

 

[sourceninja]

The time it takes to say "stop or I'll shoot" is about the same time it takes for someone to cover 10-15 feet and take that gun away.

 

[nick1985]

night sights are your friend

 

[irishScott]

The time it takes to say "stop or I'll shoot" is about the same time it takes for someone to cover 10-15 feet and take that gun away.

Like I said, depends entirely on the situation. In that situation I'd probably stop mid-warning and shoot the moron. Besides, you turn around a see a gun pointed at you from 15' away, is your first reaction to charge it?

 

[irishScott]

night sights are your friend

True. Looked into the Sig P238 for that reason, found the 1911 system to be over-complicated for this purpose and the dimensions to still be a little larger/heftier.

Keep in mind I'm going for pocket carry whilst already carrying around the following:

Leatherman Juice Cs4
2 Pencils
Pen
Streamlight Stylus Pro
Small tube of super glue
Travel Toothbrush with tiny tube of toothpaste
About 3' of duct and electrical tape wrapped around a piece of cardboard
60' cloth tape measure
2 band-aids
small stack of kleenex
chapstick
small tweezers
2 Aleve Liquid-gells
Benchmade mini-nitrous stryker

Cellphone
Wallet
Keys

And that's in 2 front pockets, occasionally utilizing a cargo pocket if the keys become a nuisance. I use pocket protect protectors, yes pocket protectors to consolidate everything. (No I don't put them in breast pockets, so they're completely invisible unless I take them out.)

Concern isn't so much added bulk (I have cargo pockets) as added weight. I have to tighten my belt as it is, and every oz counts at this point (including ammo weight). So I'm going as low as I feel I can without sacrificing vital performance.

 

[Zargon]

Keep in mind I'm going for pocket carry whilst already carrying around the following:

huge list of shit

when did MacGuyver start carrying a gun??

 

[irishScott]

when did MacGuyver start carrying a gun??

lol I can give you a longer list of both past and potential uses for each item if you like. 🙂

 

[Zargon]

Yea there is no way I would say a 45 is the same as a 9. I was just saying that .380, .38, .357, and 9mm are all the same essentially. (same diameter bullet). The difference is just the weight and the powder which only slightly varies (excluding 357mag of course).

yeah for some reason I was thinking (instead of reading) that I was replying to guy that said that all handgun ammo was the same my bad 🙂

Many 1911's were designed to shoot FMJ. If you want to shoot hollow point you will need to do some work on it. This is why kimber and the SA loaded 1911's got popular. They did all the custom work 'out of the box' so to speak. It's rare now however that modern 1911's will not shoot hollow point.

Your gun may have needed a break in period or some work done on it.

I have a friend with a hi point 1911 and a auto ordinance(1st gen) and they are both junk.

you cant get the AO to run through a whole mag without jamming

Only marginally compared to 9mm however. Personally, I believe shot placement and firearm/bullet quality matter a lot more then if you shoot 9mm, .38, or .380. To me the problem is a lack of good quality, accurate, .380's. It's easy to find high quality 9mm pistols. A lot of the .380's out there (even ruger's nice little LCP that my wife carries) seem to be finicky.

this. I work with a ton of LEO's and they call my glock 17 a womans gun and ask when I will step up to a mans round. of course, I was shooting tighter groups than they were with their glock 22's, faster too.

 

[jlee]

this. I work with a ton of LEO's and they call my glock 17 a womans gun and ask when I will step up to a mans round. of course, I was shooting tighter groups than they were with their glock 22's, faster too.

Ask them when they're going to step up to a man's round. 😛 I love my 21SF.

 

[Zargon]

lol I can give you a longer list of both past and potential uses for each item if you like. 🙂

sure, but abbreviate it to only the awesome ones 😀

Ask them when they're going to step up to a man's round. 😛 I love my 21SF.

nice, the SF is pimp.

 

[jlee]

sure, but abbreviate it to only the awesome ones 😀






nice, the SF is pimp.

They gave us Surefire X300's, too. We're spoiled. 😀

 

[Zargon]

damn!!!!

in NH? jeez. you guys sure spend money in odd ways. my buddy moved there last year, your temp drivers licenses are awful and it took over 100 days to get a real one, he had a real hell of a time flying with that thing 😛

 

[irishScott]

sure, but abbreviate it to only the awesome ones 😀

Haha, unfortunately I haven't figured out how to make a nuclear reactor out of any of it.. yet. About the most "awesome" uses so far/on the horizon:

Leatherman: Took the cover off an electrical socket in class because I was bored. Orgasmically sawed through safety plastic. Potential use in upcoming pranks.

Streamlight: Finding the fucking jack notch under my car while changing afore-mentioned tire in the dark.

Super-Glue: In the off chance I end up on the side of the road with a bad laceration and can't get to my car's emergency kit, best way to seal it and other wounds. Also useful for potential pranks.

Travel Toothbrush/paste: Best breath mint in the world and gets rid of yellowing due to coffee/soda/etc. I can eat whatever I want, grab a water bottle and a minute later go straight to a meeting/on a date/out with friends/whatever with that much more confidence. As this goes in my mouth, it is unlikely it will be useful for potential pranks. 🙂

talking about something like this:

60' cloth tape measure: Measuring implement, helps with drawing straight lines, and potential assassination tool. 😛

2 Aleve Liquid-Gells: Added these after I busted up my ankle and half-tore a ligament in my foot. Had to hump it half a mile. Not fun, this stuff would've helped. 2 is the maximum recommended first dose (for 10 hours) on the bottle.

Benchmade: Spring-assisted opening and tanto blade. My only defensive weapon for now (I do have basic knife-fight training). Would usually go for something bigger but stupid local laws classify anything over a 3" folding blade as a "deadly weapon" and thus can't be carried concealed.

Kleenex: Aside from their obvious uses (including when the one clean stall is out of toilet paper), said tire change was done in 25 degrees, and I'd (stupidly) left my gloves at home. Still got a little frostnip, but a few layers of kleenex between skin and sub-freezing metal is a godsend. (A pair of nice, insulated work gloves now have a permanent place in my car's emergency kit)

The rest is used as you would imagine, for now.

 

[duragezic]

True. Looked into the Sig P238 for that reason, found the 1911 system to be over-complicated for this purpose and the dimensions to still be a little larger/heftier.

Keep in mind I'm going for pocket carry whilst already carrying around the following:

Leatherman Juice Cs4
2 Pencils
Pen
Streamlight Stylus Pro
Small tube of super glue
Travel Toothbrush with tiny tube of toothpaste
About 3' of duct and electrical tape wrapped around a piece of cardboard
60' cloth tape measure
2 band-aids
small stack of kleenex
chapstick
small tweezers
2 Aleve Liquid-gells
Benchmade mini-nitrous stryker

Cellphone
Wallet
Keys

And that's in 2 front pockets, occasionally utilizing a cargo pocket if the keys become a nuisance. I use pocket protect protectors, yes pocket protectors to consolidate everything. (No I don't put them in breast pockets, so they're completely invisible unless I take them out.)

Concern isn't so much added bulk (I have cargo pockets) as added weight. I have to tighten my belt as it is, and every oz counts at this point (including ammo weight). So I'm going as low as I feel I can without sacrificing vital performance.

Jeez, sounds like someone's been watching nutnfancy on Youtube.

Also, what state do you live in? I know some states set a length limit on knives when they are intended to be used as a deadly weapon. But simply carrying a pocket knife on you exceeding 3" I don't think falls under that in a lot of cases.

Anyway, I don't think you can go wrong with a good .380 ACP or 9mm. Any gun is better than nothing if the time ever came, and a small lightweight gun is one you're likely to have always. So I see nothing wrong with the S&W Bodyguard .380 as long as its reliable. Yeah the laser could throw someone off. A lot of people only know of them from TV and movies and associate them some badass marksman.

 

[Zargon]

3 is the limit in IL, but most LEO's have no clue there is a limit...

 

[irishScott]

Jeez, sounds like someone's been watching nutnfancy on Youtube.

Haha, yeah. Not my only source but I'm a subscriber. So far his recommendations have been right on for the most part (I personally think the CS4 or even Xe6 is a better option over the CS2 but to each their own). The stylus pro is the shit for the price. For the record though I didn't copy his system. He carries his stuff around in a fanny pack. Using pocket protectors and the choice of what goes in/around them was all made up from scratch and my personal experience.

 

[irishScott]

3 is the limit in IL, but most LEO's have no clue there is a limit...

But in the off chance that they do and I'm on University property I get arrested and potentially expelled. Not worth the risk IMO.

 

[rgwalt]

OP- Are you referring to .380 ACP, which is an automatic pistol round, or .38 special, which is a revolver round? Since you mentioned a S&W Bodyguard, I bet you are talking about .38 special. Just make sure you are buying the right ammo to put through that revolver.

I would also recommend picking up either a full sized revolver or a full sized semi-auto for practice purposes. Going from being a non-gunowner to CCW with a single gun is ambitious. I would find something full sized and relatively easy to operate and shoot, such as a Beretta 92FS, Springfield XD (or XDm), or a Glock, Sig, CZ, etc. I would buy it in 9mm due to the relatively low cost of ammo (I can get 9mm for $9 for a box of 50 if I'm lucky, $12 a box other days). Then practice with both guns (of course) but spend a lot of time with the bigger weapon to get used to aiming, shooting, and not flinching.

As far as reliable operation goes, it doesn't get much better than a revolver. Buy a bunch of the JHP concealed carry ammo you plan to use and put a box down range the first few practices. Then, cycle through your carry ammo periodically, depending how often you carry. For example, maybe every 2 weeks you can cycle through to some fresh carry ammo. Collect the ammo you've carried for a period of time and shoot through it at the range. The reason I make this suggestion is that self defense loads are generally more powerful than others. You will want to make sure you are used to firing them out of that weapon.

 

[irishScott]

OP- Are you referring to .380 ACP, which is an automatic pistol round, or .38 special, which is a revolver round? Since you mentioned a S&W Bodyguard, I bet you are talking about .38 special. Just make sure you are buying the right ammo to put through that revolver.

I would also recommend picking up either a full sized revolver or a full sized semi-auto for practice purposes. Going from being a non-gunowner to CCW with a single gun is ambitious. I would find something full sized and relatively easy to operate and shoot, such as a Beretta 92FS, Springfield XD (or XDm), or a Glock, Sig, CZ, etc. I would buy it in 9mm due to the relatively low cost of ammo (I can get 9mm for $9 for a box of 50 if I'm lucky, $12 a box other days). Then practice with both guns (of course) but spend a lot of time with the bigger weapon to get used to aiming, shooting, and not flinching.

As far as reliable operation goes, it doesn't get much better than a revolver. Buy a bunch of the JHP concealed carry ammo you plan to use and put a box down range the first few practices. Then, cycle through your carry ammo periodically, depending how often you carry. For example, maybe every 2 weeks you can cycle through to some fresh carry ammo. Collect the ammo you've carried for a period of time and shoot through it at the range. The reason I make this suggestion is that self defense loads are generally more powerful than others. You will want to make sure you are used to firing them out of that weapon.

Yep, 380 ACP. Brand new, not even on sale until May apparently. Ruled out revolvers due to the additional width.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF5Ri4aNbwE#t=14m35s

As for the ambition, I've got a friend willing to show me the ropes and I've considered a training course, so hopefully that'l speed things along as much as they can be. Don't get me wrong I by no means intend for this to be my one and only gun, but money being what it is I figure I'll go for the most useful option first. Besides, if I learn to shoot accurately with a light sub-compact I imagine it'll be relatively easy to transition to something heavier.