Gun noob question: Training with hollow point vs FMJ

[boomhower]

"Like I said, depends entirely on the situation. In that situation I'd probably stop mid-warning and shoot the moron. Besides, you turn around a see a gun pointed at you from 15' away, is your first reaction to charge it?"

You don't pull your gun out unless you are ready to use it. Messing around and trying to give a warning is going to get you killed. If the threat is there for you to pull it out, use it. If not, don't pull it out.

"They gave us Surefire X300's, too. We're spoiled. "

Lucky son of a.....

We just had a big meeting and they told they were finally replacing our old G22's, some of which are pushing 15 years old. Of course he was happy saying they had light rails which our old one didn't. He got real quiet real quick when he was asked about getting light and new holsters to accomadate them. Heck, I am just hoping they will let us add our own.

 

[irishScott]

"Like I said, depends entirely on the situation. In that situation I'd probably stop mid-warning and shoot the moron. Besides, you turn around a see a gun pointed at you from 15' away, is your first reaction to charge it?"

You don't pull your gun out unless you are ready to use it. Messing around and trying to give a warning is going to get you killed. If the threat is there for you to pull it out, use it. If not, don't pull it out.

I'd rather not go to jail for murder or manslaughter. That's what the warning is for, but obviously I wouldn't give a warning in every situation. Being ready to fire and actually firing are two different things.

 

[Zargon]

But in the off chance that they do and I'm on University property I get arrested and potentially expelled. Not worth the risk IMO.

no argument here on that one! I have a 2.78" colt tactical tanto I carry around

 

[DivideBYZero]

... a hot defense load ...

:awe:

 

[LTC8K6]

A .380ACP is far weaker than a 9mm. With a .380, you will want to use FMJ rounds to ensure enough penetration to reach the vitals of a bad guy.

Modern rounds have improved the .380, but it's still no comparison to a 9mm or .38 special.

There are even .380ACP +P rounds now from Buffalo Bore. which are considerably hotter.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=129

 

[boomhower]

I'd rather not go to jail for murder or manslaughter. That's what the warning is for, but obviously I wouldn't give a warning in every situation. Being ready to fire and actually firing are two different things.

You won't go to jail for murder or manslaughter since the only reason you got it out is because you were justified in using it. Bring it out to "give a warning" and pop of a shot accidentally and then you can go to jail for murder. Or you bring it out when you are not justified and you can go to jail for brandishing or going armed to the terror of the public. It's a fine line.

 

[alkemyst]

Also showing an unloaded weapon is one of the most serious things you can do. An unloaded gun can only be used for offense, never defense.

 

[irishScott]

You won't go to jail for murder or manslaughter since the only reason you got it out is because you were justified in using it. Bring it out to "give a warning" and pop of a shot accidentally and then you can go to jail for murder. Or you bring it out when you are not justified and you can go to jail for brandishing or going armed to the terror of the public. It's a fine line.

So just to be clear, you're saying never draw your gun unless it's 100% guaranteed that you're going to shoot something. If that's your position I won't even begin to armchair situations and cite court cases where that doesn't fly.

 

[sourceninja]

"Like I said, depends entirely on the situation. In that situation I'd probably stop mid-warning and shoot the moron. Besides, you turn around a see a gun pointed at you from 15' away, is your first reaction to charge it?"

Let's put it this way.

What situations would you pull your gun? I'm only pulling mine if my life is in danger (or my wives) AKA the guy is trying to kill me.

This means the guy won't be turning around to see me holding a gun. That is assault with a deadly weapon. He will already be charging me and I will be backing up while trying to get to my weapon and pop two in him. Or he will be physically attacking my wife, and again I'm not warning him I'm going to pull my gun, get between them and fire.

I'm not a cop, I'm trying to defend myself. I'm not going to pull it on some guy threatening me. He's gotta be trying to kill me.

This is of course assuming he's not in my house. If he's in my house, he's going down the moment I see him. I'm not going to say "freeze and have him turn around with his own gun shooting".

 

[irishScott]

Let's put it this way.

What situations would you pull your gun? I'm only pulling mine if my life is in danger (or my wives) AKA the guy is trying to kill me.

This means the guy won't be turning around to see me holding a gun. That is assault with a deadly weapon. He will already be charging me and I will be backing up while trying to get to my weapon and pop two in him. Or he will be physically attacking my wife, and again I'm not warning him I'm going to pull my gun, get between them and fire.

I'm not a cop, I'm trying to defend myself. I'm not going to pull it on some guy threatening me. He's gotta be trying to kill me.

This is of course assuming he's not in my house. If he's in my house, he's going down the moment I see him. I'm not going to say "freeze and have him turn around with his own gun shooting".

True, and in those situations I'd act the same as you. But how about this:

I get rear-ended on the highway in heavy traffic. We pull over into the breakdown lane, but the guy behind me has road-rage and comes out with a baseball bat. I draw my gun, point it at him, he sees it, something clicks and he stops cold. In that situation I'd have a moral problem with shooting him, let alone a legal one if one of the many witnesses saw him stop. Assuming I lost control and shot him I could probably argue that it was in the heat of the moment and I didn't recognize him stopping. Aside from being true it might hold up, but it'd still be a hell of a legal quagmire that could see me doing serious jailtime.

 

[sourceninja]

True, and in those situations I'd act the same as you. But how about this:

I get rear-ended on the highway in heavy traffic. We pull over into the breakdown lane, but the guy behind me has road-rage and comes out with a baseball bat. I draw my gun, point it at him, he sees it, something clicks and he stops cold. In that situation I'd have a moral problem with shooting him, let alone a legal one if one of the many witnesses saw him stop. Assuming I lost control and shot him I could probably argue that it was in the heat of the moment and I didn't recognize him stopping. Aside from being true it might hold up, but it'd still be a hell of a legal quagmire.

He's coming at me with a baseball bat, I'm going to pull my gun and fire in one smooth motion. The same motion I train time and time again. There is no point and evaluate. It's too late. Maybe I'll be in legal trouble, but maybe that time it took to evaluation was the same amount of time it takes to run up to me and beat me with a baseball bat.

Or if the distance was great enough, I'd jump back in my car and just drive off calling the police (rather then trying to hold a pissed off man with a bat at gun point)
.
There is no point in playing real life chess. Act or don't act. I go though this a lot in the martial arts. There is always a what if. Who knows what could happen. Maybe I could see he stopped and not shoot, but muscle memory is very strong. I pull my gun, point and fire. All in less then 2 seconds. This is how I train when I train with my carry weapon. Life's a bitch but you should know that in a state that allows self defense that anyone might have a gun, and you should be polite.

Owning a gun has saved me from many fights. Not because I used it. But because the thought that it was there was enough for me to get my ass out of the situation before I had to. I'm only going to use my gun when I think it's me or him. I'm going to use it in the manner I train. I don't train to pull gun, evaluate situation, aim fire. I train evaluate situation, pull gun, aim fire.

 

[irishScott]

He's coming at me with a baseball bat, I'm going to pull my gun and fire in one smooth motion. The same motion I train time and time again. There is no point and evaluate. It's too late. Maybe I'll be in legal trouble, but maybe that time it took to evaluation was the same amount of time it takes to run up to me and beat me with a baseball bat.

Or if the distance was great enough, I'd jump back in my car and just drive off calling the police (rather then trying to hold a pissed off man with a bat at gun point)
.
There is no point in playing real life chess. Act or don't act. I go though this a lot in the martial arts. There is always a what if. Who knows what could happen. Maybe I could see he stopped and not shoot, but muscle memory is very strong. I pull my gun, point and fire. All in less then 2 seconds. This is how I train when I train with my carry weapon. Life's a bitch but you should know that in a state that allows self defense that anyone might have a gun, and you should be polite.

Owning a gun has saved me from many fights. Not because I used it. But because the thought that it was there was enough for me to get my ass out of the situation before I had to. I'm only going to use my gun when I think it's me or him. I'm going to use it in the manner I train. I don't train to pull gun, evaluate situation, aim fire. I train evaluate situation, pull gun, aim fire.

Touche. Like I said I'm the noob here. This kind of stuff is hopefully what a decent training course will cover.

 

[alkemyst]

He's coming at me with a baseball bat, I'm going to pull my gun and fire in one smooth motion. The same motion I train time and time again. There is no point and evaluate. It's too late. Maybe I'll be in legal trouble, but maybe that time it took to evaluation was the same amount of time it takes to run up to me and beat me with a baseball bat.

Or if the distance was great enough, I'd jump back in my car and just drive off calling the police (rather then trying to hold a pissed off man with a bat at gun point)
.
There is no point in playing real life chess. Act or don't act. I go though this a lot in the martial arts. There is always a what if. Who knows what could happen. Maybe I could see he stopped and not shoot, but muscle memory is very strong. I pull my gun, point and fire. All in less then 2 seconds. This is how I train when I train with my carry weapon. Life's a bitch but you should know that in a state that allows self defense that anyone might have a gun, and you should be polite.

Owning a gun has saved me from many fights. Not because I used it. But because the thought that it was there was enough for me to get my ass out of the situation before I had to. I'm only going to use my gun when I think it's me or him. I'm going to use it in the manner I train. I don't train to pull gun, evaluate situation, aim fire. I train evaluate situation, pull gun, aim fire.

well if you need to shoot someone with a bat and claim to know martial arts there really is no telling you otherwise.

9 times out of 10 you shoot a guy just coming at you with a bat, stick, etc; you are going to be guilty.

The problem is too many pussies get guns thinking it's makes them now cock of the walk. These are the tools that are brandishing, threatening, and even instigating knowing they have a 'backup'.

The only time you need to pull your gun is when 1) you can't run away (castle law aside which IMHO was created by wealthy pussies) and 2) when you know you may be seriously hurt/killed.

When you pull it you fire to KILL. There are no warning shots, shot to the knee, etc.

A warning shot has the potential to kill an innocent.

 

[spacejamz]

Sure. I would fire a few mags of your HP ammo through your piece though, just to make sure it feeds that brand properly. You dont want to go to shoot a thug and get a FTF or a FTE


You sure you want a 380 though? Its kind of a weak/pussy round. I'd look for a 9 or something if I my retarded state allowed me to carry.

i'm pretty sure my weak hollow point pussy rounds coming out of my ruger lcp will leaving your azz on the ground at 7 yards...

 

[alkemyst]

i'm pretty sure my weak hollow point pussy rounds coming out of my ruger lcp will leaving your azz on the ground at 7 yards...

I think that guy is just going by his CoD video game.

the .380 acp is a very effective round in a compact weapon esp the fact that most can shoot it quickly without much loss for accuracy. You also get extra capacity.

a .45 in a compact frame can usually overpower many esp if having to shoot repeatedly. Plus now you are giving up capacity that may be needed if you miss a couple times.

 

[sourceninja]

well if you need to shoot someone with a bat and claim to know martial arts there really is no telling you otherwise.

9 times out of 10 you shoot a guy just coming at you with a bat, stick, etc; you are going to be guilty.

The problem is too many pussies get guns thinking it's makes them now cock of the walk. These are the tools that are brandishing, threatening, and even instigating knowing they have a 'backup'.

The only time you need to pull your gun is when 1) you can't run away (castle law aside which IMHO was created by wealthy pussies) and 2) when you know you may be seriously hurt/killed.

When you pull it you fire to KILL. There are no warning shots, shot to the knee, etc.

A warning shot has the potential to kill an innocent.

So what? You are saying I should not pull my gun, but attempt to disarm the man with the bat using my MMA training? Or maybe my awesome black belt in TKD I got at age 12? Maybe I could use my bjj training to pull guard and armbar him! Or I could use my judo training to throw him!

Or (and more likely) I could try to engage him and get my god damn skull crashed in by a baseball bat. It's a deadly weapon, pulling a baseball bat is deadly force. You can respond in kind where I'm from (Indiana).

Or maybe you have a better solution? You were not so kind to offer in your post.

You have two options when facing down a man with a baseball bat. Run or shoot him. I already said that if running was possible (aka there was enough distance to get to my car) I would get in my car, drive away and call the police. But if there is not enough distance to run, he's bearing down on you with a baseball bat, what are you going to do? Shoot him or try to kung fu your way out of it?

Here's a hint. Weapon disarms almost always don't work. I'll let anyone who wants to test that theory by giving me a baseball bat and letting me try to hit them.

 

[alkemyst]

that's what I thought, your parent's sent you to some studio as a kid and you are walking around thinking you are Bruce Lee.

There was an interesting tidbit in Jackie Chan's book about a guy that thought martial arts were stupid when he had a gun. One day Jackie unloaded his gun and taunted him until he pulled it. After that the guy learned martial arts.

I took martial arts into my 20's, I never had a problem disarming someone with a bat, 2x4, pipe...now I probably have never encountered some Bo staff master in this so YMMV. I wasn't even a black belt. As soon as most start spewing out MMA and BJJ I know they are usually tools. This is nothing more than the Kenpo type systems in the past with a new fancy name.

It's clear you are looking for an excuse to shoot someone though and why our gun laws are getting ridiculous.

 

[LTC8K6]

Ruger LCP is not built for the +P rounds, unfortunately.

There is plenty of online data showing that the 380 is barely able to meet the FBI 12" penetration rule in ballistic gelatin. And that's with FMJ rounds. Hollowpoints generally don't get there except for an expensive round like Cor-Bon DPX, and that barely makes it.

 

[LTC8K6]

Generally, hollowpoints fired from a 380 do not expand much, due to the low velocity and low energy.

 

[pontifex]

OP- Are you referring to .380 ACP, which is an automatic pistol round, or .38 special, which is a revolver round? Since you mentioned a S&W Bodyguard, I bet you are talking about .38 special. Just make sure you are buying the right ammo to put through that revolver.

I would also recommend picking up either a full sized revolver or a full sized semi-auto for practice purposes. Going from being a non-gunowner to CCW with a single gun is ambitious. I would find something full sized and relatively easy to operate and shoot, such as a Beretta 92FS, Springfield XD (or XDm), or a Glock, Sig, CZ, etc. I would buy it in 9mm due to the relatively low cost of ammo (I can get 9mm for $9 for a box of 50 if I'm lucky, $12 a box other days). Then practice with both guns (of course) but spend a lot of time with the bigger weapon to get used to aiming, shooting, and not flinching.

As far as reliable operation goes, it doesn't get much better than a revolver. Buy a bunch of the JHP concealed carry ammo you plan to use and put a box down range the first few practices. Then, cycle through your carry ammo periodically, depending how often you carry. For example, maybe every 2 weeks you can cycle through to some fresh carry ammo. Collect the ammo you've carried for a period of time and shoot through it at the range. The reason I make this suggestion is that self defense loads are generally more powerful than others. You will want to make sure you are used to firing them out of that weapon.

I don't understand changing out "fresh" ammo. it takes a LOOONG time or bad conditions for ammo to go bad, otherwise we wouldn't have all the mil-surp ammo out there.

Besides, say you bought a box of ammo on 1/1/2010. You only use 10 rounds out of 20 in your mag. so you swap out 10 rounds that you've had in your gun for 2 weeks. How is that ammo any different than the other 10 rounds that sat in the box for those 2 weeks, not to mention how long it sat in the store, or in the warehouse before that, or at the manufacturer before that?

 

[sourceninja]

that's what I thought, your parent's sent you to some studio as a kid and you are walking around thinking you are Bruce Lee.

There was an interesting tidbit in Jackie Chan's book about a guy that thought martial arts were stupid when he had a gun. One day Jackie unloaded his gun and taunted him until he pulled it. After that the guy learned martial arts.

I took martial arts into my 20's, I never had a problem disarming someone with a bat, 2x4, pipe...now I probably have never encountered some Bo staff master in this so YMMV. I wasn't even a black belt. As soon as most start spewing out MMA and BJJ I know they are usually tools. This is nothing more than the Kenpo type systems in the past with a new fancy name.

It's clear you are looking for an excuse to shoot someone though and why our gun laws are getting ridiculous.

Your funny.

I have trained in the martial arts my whole life. I still train today.

I have a black belt in shitty Taekwondo.
I have a brown belt (ikkyo) in Judo.
I have trained for 4 years in Aikido (never ranked)
I have a blue belt (Almost purple belt) in bjj.
I have trained in boxing for the last 6 months. I will keep training in boxing until I can't physically be punched in the face anymore. I love the sport.
I also train in MMA (you know the full contact sport that incorporates kick boxing, wrestling, and jiujitsu).

How many times have you been attacked by someone for real with a bat or pipe? I have a 100% disarm success rate in the club. You give a guy a rubber knife and I can take it away every time. Now give a untrained wrestling buddy a purple marker and tell him to stab me with it and see how I look like a piece of abstract art by the time I get it away from him.

Non sport based martial arts do not work. If you can't do it for real in the club, you can't do it on the street. Watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc&feature=related AKA the only way to learn how to take a bat away is to have someone who really wants to bash your skull in try to hit you in the head with a bat.

To relate bjj to kempo just shows how little you actually know about hand to hand combat. I suggest you take your argument to bullshido.net and see how much water it holds. They are perfectly willing to test any theories you might have.

Your comment also shows how little thought you have put into self defense. You actually have the stupidity to engage someone on their terms with them better armed then yourself? That is just dumb. You also don't know what other weapons they have.

If the guy was running at you unarmed, how do you know that you just don't see the knife he has? This is why I first try to avoid, failing to avoid, the only other option is that they want to kill/seriously hurt me. Thus, I use my gun.

I actually fight all the time. I'm in the gym taking my hits. I am punched, kicked, choked, beaten, thrown, etc multiple times a week.

(I'm going to use all caps here to stress this)
NONE OF THAT IS SELF DEFENSE.

Seriously, martial arts are not first line self defense. They are systems of failure. Martial arts are the last thing you go to when everything else has failed. This is why I find most martial arts instruction laughable, it assumes you are in a winning position. You never see the kata for being blind sided by a thug, laying on the ground bleeding from a head wound with a guy kicking you. It's always a face off with you in superior position. It's a farce. Note that I have almost 20 years of martial arts training and I still train today. You understand that? Almost 20 years of martial arts, and I still get my ass beat by 'untrained wrestlers' every single week. That's not to say I haven't gotten better, it's just to say I'm not going to put my faith in a situation where everyone has a punchers chance.

Back to our situation. You are staring down a man, armed with a deadly weapon (or are you saying a baseball bat to the skull would just be an inconvenience?) You are actually telling me that you would choose to engage him unarmed and disarm him? Then what, sit on him and wait for police? Hope he doesn't have a buddy, knife, gun, etc? How do you contact police while you are engaging in this fight? Are you such a ninja you can disarm him with one hand and dial 911 with the other?

It's stupid and arrogant. A man is trying to seriously hurt or kill you. You have a tool for the expressed purpose of stopping that action. If you live in my state, you have the right to use said tool for it's purpose. Using martial arts in this situation is like having a sports car, but choosing to enter a bicycle race on foot. Sure you might get lucky and win if everyone else screws up, but you could have just taken the car. Hell it's like a seal throwing down a perfectly good rifle to take on a bunch of terrorists with his elite hand to hand skills.

Reality check, life is not like the movies.

You call me a self proclaimed bad ass? I'm the god damn voice of reason. I'm not the guy advocating, and claiming that I can, disarm a man with my bare hands (or bear hands...I wish I had bear hands...ahem).

How many recorded fights does Jackie Chan have? This gives me more insight into your idea of what a fight is. You probably imagine two guys on their feet fighting fist to fist, trapping hands and using odd balancing techniques on a table with a broken leg.

In a real fight, people are really trying to hurt you. You would be stupid to give up an obvious advantage so you 'wouldn't be a pussy'. I don't want to shot anyone. Luckily chances are I will never shoot anyone. But if someone has a deadly weapon and is coming at me, I'm going to use my tools to defend my life. That's how it works.

You have yet to present a strategy that can be taken seriously. I actually tried to take away foam weapons from people who were not students in my martial arts class expecting me to 'win'. Quite simply it does work nearly often enough and not without a good beating while you try it. I'm not getting broken bones or dead trying to save my attackers life.

 

[sourceninja]

I don't understand changing out "fresh" ammo. it takes a LOOONG time or bad conditions for ammo to go bad, otherwise we wouldn't have all the mil-surp ammo out there.

Besides, say you bought a box of ammo on 1/1/2010. You only use 10 rounds out of 20 in your mag. so you swap out 10 rounds that you've had in your gun for 2 weeks. How is that ammo any different than the other 10 rounds that sat in the box for those 2 weeks, not to mention how long it sat in the store, or in the warehouse before that, or at the manufacturer before that?

In my safe, sure. It will keep for a long long time. It's climate controlled and dry. On my person there is dirt, moisture, heat, oil, sweat, etc. Every time I have to unload my weapon I have to touch that round and I'm putting wear on that round. I'm not saying it's going to ruin it, but there is nothing wrong with rotating out your ammo over the course of a year. I shoot maybe 20-30 HP rounds a year at the range. Just a few every couple months. Mostly to get used the difference in how they fire (more muzzle lift in my PPS). But also because I want to prevent any kind of failure due to ammo.

In this way I know my ammo is good, I know my gun is not broken in any way which would cause it not to feed the ammo, and I know what to expect when I fire that ammo. The rest of the time I use whatever is cheapest.

 

[alkemyst]

How many times have you been attacked by someone for real with a bat or pipe? I have a 100% disarm success rate in the club. You give a guy a rubber knife and I can take it away every time. Now give a untrained wrestling buddy a purple marker and tell him to stab me with it and see how I look like a piece of abstract art by the time I get it away from him.

I was involved in a really bad scene from around high school until my mid 20's.

I have been shot at.

I have not had a need to carry a gun yet, and I am by far a martial arts expert. I am approaching 40 now.

I have known a lot of black belts and many are just in schools where time = belt.

You are talking how it's impossible to always disarm a bat, yet are training in BOXING so you will never be able to be hit in the face?!?!

I will agree it's pretty hard to avoid at least a cut disarming a knife, but to say you look like abstract art from someone that is obviously not a knife fighter is pretty damn sad.


OH BTW, I never referred to you as anything like being a bad ass....quite the contrary.

 

[sourceninja]

I was involved in a really bad scene from around high school until my mid 20's.

I have been shot at.

I have not had a need to carry a gun yet, and I am by far a martial arts expert. I am approaching 40 now.

I have known a lot of black belts and many are just in schools where time = belt.

You are talking how it's impossible to always disarm a bat, yet are training in BOXING so you will never be able to be hit in the face?!?!

I will agree it's pretty hard to avoid at least a cut disarming a knife, but to say you look like abstract art from someone that is obviously not a knife fighter is pretty damn sad.


OH BTW, I never referred to you as anything like being a bad ass....quite the contrary.

No, I said I will keep training boxing until I'm no longer able to be hit in the face. Meaning a doctor tells me that continuing to box will kill me.

I'll state right now that if you give me a baseball bat, I'll put down any unarmed person you care to point out. Bat + skull/knee cap = win.

And no, it's not said. It's reality. Apparently you are detached from it.

 

[alkemyst]

you are a badass. Didn't know you'd be able to take out someone like Bruce Lee with just a bat.

*shiver*