GTX650Ti Review Leak

[Granseth]

Nvidia same as AMD have jack squat with rebates.
All they do price wise is set MSRP. AIBs and resellers take it from there.

HD7000 have been selling under MSRP since forever, with not so rare too-good-to-be-true offers.
At the same time Nvidia products pretty much follow MSRP.

What does that tell you of AMD/NVIDIA demand/supply?

I have no trouble believing that nVidia sells more than AMD and might be more production constrained.
I have a bit more trouble believing that to be a good argument to buy a GPU though. Buy whatever gives you the best perceived value and be happy with that, but when you give an advice you should put into the consideration what the customer get in perf/$.

And nVidias partners does not sell their products at MSRP, but it looks like they don't adjust MSRP as often, and when it comes to 670/680/690 it seems like you don't get as big price cuts either.

 

[Crap Daddy]

What does that tell you of AMD/NVIDIA demand/supply?

This. And do not forget that these cards are sold worldwide. There are big differences between different markets. For example where I'm living the 7850 2GB has the same price as the GTX660. What would you choose?

 

[Keysplayr]

That's fine. I will just point out that a consumer can pay $105 in the end vs. $150 for ~80% of the performance. If you don't "want" to use that metric, at least don't try pretend like it's not true and somehow is discrediting. Yeah you can compare retail to retail, but for the consumer ~50% more is a lot more.

My only concern is bang for the buck and not trying to mislead people. Anyways, people can decide for themselves whether MIRs count, if they don't want to use them that's fine.

While I'm sure for this exact argument you'd be hard pressed to find an amd fan to
dislike rebates, many do not like dealing with the hassle of rebates or even possibly not getting them. I personally never deal with rebates even when the cashier hands me the receipt/forms. Sale prices are a different story. I'm all for a good sale. So with that said it would appear, according to the leaked pricing anyway, that 650ti would be priced right in line with its performance over the absolute cheapest 7770.
Now the 7850 pricing, if it can be regularly found at 160 would surely put a cramp in 650ti's style. But now ask someone who wants to play bl2 with PhsyX high if 150 is a good price for the 650ti when a 7850 is at 160. See? Decision is relative. Ask a bitcoin miner and you'd. Get a different answer.

 

[f1sherman]

Is the 7770 comparison and the "before rebate/after rebate" debate just a red herring to avoid discussion about the 7850 apparently offering ~28% more performance for $10 more?

Implying that the "price of 7850" is $160. While at the same time newegg sells them for ($):

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[Keysplayr]

Implying that the "price of 7850" is $160. While at the same time newegg sells them for ($):

165
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To be fair only 2GB 7850s are 185 and up. 180 and below are the 1GB 7850s.

 

[RussianSensation]

Cheapest 1GB 7850 models range from 164 to 180 on newegg. 2GB model starts at 184. I'm not sure why you highlighted the 7850. Do you know what the launch MSRP is on the 650Ti? Maybe you should have highlighted the (and perhaps added LOL ) 7770 instead? Or 6870?

7850 is 25% faster based on that performance testing.

The MSRP is $169 for the 7850 1GB and $159 after rebates, starting to show up on Newegg already. HD7770 goes for $105-115. Please explain to me why GTX650Ti is an HD7770 competitor when it's rumored to be priced at $139-149?

Let's say we don't even know the price of GTX650Ti. If a $159 HD7850 is 25% faster than the GTX650Ti, the 650Ti should cost about $129 not much more. And that's of course discounting HD7850's overclocking headroom. Of course NV overpriced GTS450 and 550Ti by launching them at $149, so I am not even expecting GTX650Ti to come in at $129.

Implying that the "price of 7850" is $160. While at the same time newegg sells them for ($):

The new MSRP for 7850 1GB is $169 and $159 after MIR subject to each AIB acting on the rebate. This was highlighted by many websites already. You can already find 7850 1GB for these prices.

 

[f1sherman]

To be fair only 2GB 7850s are 185 and up. 180 and below are the 1GB 7850s.

$225-$260 for 1GB 7850 in my neck of the woods.

$260+ for 2GB model

GTX 660 starts at $295

http://www.nabava.net/trazilica.php?tp=0&q=radeon+7850

 

[wand3r3r]

Implying that the "price of 7850" is $160. While at the same time newegg sells them for ($):

165
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240

At least you can buy one starting at $165 without any rebates, or $160 with one.

Just take a look at the FPS and (speculated) price you can purchase one for.

HD 7770 $105 AR
GTX 650 TI $150 (estimated)
HD 7850 $165 No rebate

for $105 you can get 47.7 FPS = 2.20 $/FPS OR 0.454 FPS/$
for $150 you can get 57.9 FPS = 2.59 $/FPS OR 0.386 FPS/$
for $165 you can get 72.6 FPS = 2.27 $/FPS OR 0.44 FPS/$

7850 vs. 650 ti = 25.4% faster starting at ~$15 more (2% faster per $)
650 ti vs. 7770 = 21.4% faster for ~$45 more (0.5% faster per $)

You still recommend it or think it is somehow superior? How is your affiliation with NV?

Of course there is the thought of Physx vs. Bitcoin, but raw FPS portray a clear picture.

 

[3DVagabond]

Any more tips for a company that has no problem of smashing the face of it's competition even when being full node behind?


BTW it's AIB's who are eating, and not just this AMD price cut.
Inventory has been stockpiling nicely, 4rd quarter is just around the corner, and they are really trying hard to raise hopes.

Nvidia has no such problems, and it's resellers don't have to follow occasional AMD "terrific offers", read channel clearing, because MSRP wise NVIDIA is very competitive.

Even this card at $149 trumps $129 HD7700 nicely.

I understand the first paragraph. I can't be sure about the rest though?

If you mean it's the AIB's who are eating the price cuts, you don't know that. Typically, when there is a retail price reduction there are rebates or stock balancing that is done to compensate for the product already in the market.

We have no idea about their inventory, we are in the 4th quarter of the year, and who's hopes are they trying to raise and how exactly are they doing that? What about a $150 card trumping a $130 card?

 

[Silverforce11]

This. And do not forget that these cards are sold worldwide. There are big differences between different markets. For example where I'm living the 7850 2GB has the same price as the GTX660. What would you choose?

I find this hard to believe.. where exactly do you live?

Outside USA market, its usually NV selling by a huge margin.

 

[3DVagabond]

Nvidia same as AMD have jack squat with rebates.
All they do price wise is set MSRP. AIBs and resellers take it from there.

Where do you get your misinformation from? Rebates can come from anywhere in the supply chain.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Implying that the "price of 7850" is $160. While at the same time newegg sells them for ($):

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It's not implying anything, it's stating a fact. A 7850 can be had for a final cost of $160...it's not a leap of faith here...

 

[f1sherman]

We have no idea about their inventory, we are in the 4th quarter of the year, and who's hopes are they trying to raise and how exactly are they doing that? What about a $150 card trumping a $130 card?

Price cut that's result of the "natural economics that are governing the channel, promotions and aggressive pricing that the ecosystem is driving on its own" along with not so rare too-good-to-be-true offers that get linked here in AT are giving me some ideas about inventory. Of course I could be wrong.

 

[RussianSensation]

Let me get this straight, comparing the 120$ 7770 to the 150$ ( 30$ delta ) 650ti is fair game but comparing the same 650ti to a 160$ 7850 1GB ( 10$ delta ) is just wrong?

That's been the story this generation since June when AMD's new drivers and price drops took NV out of the price/performance and performance equation for single-GPUs.

NV fans insist that we should be comparing GT650 to HD7750, GTX650Ti to HD7770, GTX660 to HD7850, GTX660Ti to HD7870, GTX670 to HD7950 and GTX680 to HD7970 (because they drop the HD7970 GE SKU as non-existent and move the entire AMD line-up 1 notch down in performance, ignoring the price levels).

The reality is based on current pricing, you start with HD7970 GE at $450 and move down with HD7970 going against 670, 7950 against 660Ti and so on. At the sub-$250 level we get:

HD7750 > GT640
HD7770 > GTX650
HD7850 1GB vs. GTX650Ti (still don' know actual 650Ti MSRP but so far the performance looks terrible for the 650Ti as a 7850 competitor)
HD7850 2GB > no competitor from NV
HD7870 > GTX660
Some HD7870s have already dipped to $195-200 recently while GTX660 continues to hover above $200.
http://www.computerbase.de/artikel/grafikkarten/2012/test-nvidia-geforce-gtx-650/4/

This. And do not forget that these cards are sold worldwide. There are big differences between different markets. For example where I'm living the 7850 2GB has the same price as the GTX660. What would you choose?

Country source? In most places in Europe (UK, Portugal, Spain, Poland), US, Canada and Oceania, NV cards have a substantial price premium on average.

HD7870 is a competitor to GTX660. You are saying HD7870 costs more than a GTX660 where you are at?

UK:
HD7850 1GB = £135
HD7850 2GB = £156
HD7870 = £179
GTX660 = £192

Germany:
HD7850 1GB = €160
HD7850 2GB = €180
HD7870 = €210
GTX660 = €210

Not only do NV cards cost more or similar but HD7870 is faster than a GTX660.

In Portugal, NV products are overpriced as 1Ghz HD7970 costs less than GTX670s, MSI Lightning 7970 costs as much as Asus DirectCUII 670.

In Canada, HD7970 goes for $350 CDN and HD7850 1GB is $155 CDN, so not much needs to be said about NV's price premiums where I live.

So which country are you from again?

 

[3DVagabond]

While I'm sure for this exact argument you'd be hard pressed to find an amd fan to
dislike rebates, many do not like dealing with the hassle of rebates or even possibly not getting them. I personally never deal with rebates even when the cashier hands me the receipt/forms. Sale prices are a different story. I'm all for a good sale. So with that said it would appear, according to the leaked pricing anyway, that 650ti would be priced right in line with its performance over the absolute cheapest 7770.
Now the 7850 pricing, if it can be regularly found at 160 would surely put a cramp in 650ti's style. But now ask someone who wants to play bl2 with PhsyX high if 150 is a good price for the 650ti when a 7850 is at 160. See? Decision is relative. Ask a bitcoin miner and you'd. Get a different answer.

I haven't seen any benches. Will the 650ti play BL2 with PhysX on high?

 

[3DVagabond]

Price cut that's result of the "natural economics that are governing the channel, promotions and aggressive pricing that the ecosystem is driving on its own" along with not so rare too-good-to-be-true offers that get linked here in AT are giving me some ideas about inventory. Of course I could be wrong.

I like that. If only it were that simple though.

How about these?

1, Manufacturer A sets it's sites on manufacturer B. A wants to gain market share. A increases production and reduces pricing to meet the desired goal.

2, Manufacturer B is supply constrained. They raise pricing so as not to completely sell out of the limited supply they have before they can get more.

Don't get me wrong. I have no idea if these are true or not, but either do you. You are the only one who comes in here trying to make believe you do.

 

[RussianSensation]

Nvidia needs to learn to price their cards against the competition, not against their own products. I've purchased Nvidia exclusively for 12 years now, but that run is over.

That's why NV continues to charge premiums. You exclusively bought nV products for 12 years and NV had some real bombs/slower generations along the way in terms of performance (FX5000 series, GF7) and since HD4800/5800/6900 series worse price/performance overall. The only way NV will start offering good value is if more consumers vote with their wallets that they care about price/performance. If not, NV has no incentive to drop prices.

Gigabyte Windforce 3x GTX670 is still going for $399.99 on Newegg. That card was $399.99 on launch date. Can't blame NV if the consumer thinks 6 months old technology hasn't eroded in value by even $1.

 

[Raghu]

I really don't see how there is any question that the 7850 is the better card.

Not sure if the card in the review is the 1GB or 2GB. Is there a significant difference between these 2 versions?

 

[Crap Daddy]

Country source? In most places in Europe (UK, Portugal, Spain, Poland), US, Canada and Oceania, NV cards have a substantial price premium on average.

HD7870 is a competitor to GTX660. You are saying HD7870 costs more than a GTX660 where you are at?

Surprised? Talking about Romania. Prices here are all over the place, here's what I'm talking about:

http://www.mediadot.ro/placi-video/...x-660-2048mb-ddr5-oc-windforce-2x-ud2-edition
http://www.mediadot.ro/placi-video/placa-video-sapphire-radeon-hd-7850-2048mb-ddr5-lite-retail

here's a 7870
http://www.mediadot.ro/placi-video/...-7870-2048mb-ddr5-windforce-udvga-ghz-edition

 

[f1sherman]

I like that. If only it were that simple though.

How about these?

1, Manufacturer A sets it's sites on manufacturer B. A wants to gain market share. A increases production and reduces pricing to meet the desired goal.

2, Manufacturer B is supply constrained. They raise pricing so as not to completely sell out of the limited supply they have before they can get more.

Don't get me wrong. I have no idea if these are true or not, but either do you. You are the only one who comes in here trying to make believe you do.

"I could be wrong" part?

Remember HD5000 and AMDs race for market share back then?
What good was it, if apparently NV can still do pretty much as they please?

And you're saying that at THIS point in time, Mr. Rory Read & Co. are willing to trade financial result for market share? Well I guess anything is possible

 

[Rvenger]

NV fans insist that we should be comparing GT650 to HD7750, GTX650Ti to HD7770, GTX660 to HD7850, GTX660Ti to HD7870, GTX670 to HD7950 and GTX680 to HD7970 (because they drop the HD7970 GE SKU as non-existent and move the entire AMD line-up 1 notch down in performance, ignoring the price levels).

Didn't the 12.8 drivers deem the 7970 (Non GE) equal to the 680?

 

[RussianSensation]

Now the 7850 pricing, if it can be regularly found at 160 would surely put a cramp in 650ti's style. But now ask someone who wants to play bl2 with PhsyX high if 150 is a good price for the 650ti when a 7850 is at 160. See? Decision is relative. Ask a bitcoin miner and you'd. Get a different answer.

"A non overclocked GeForce GTX 660 Ti video card will need to play with PhysX set to Medium or else the performance will drop under 35 FPS for extended periods of time during the combat intense areas of the game." HardOCP

We've already established in the BL2 thread that even GTX680/GTX680 SLI can drop to below 30fps with PhysX High. PhysX on GTX650Ti is an oxymoron as the card is way too slow to use it.

Didn't the 12.8 drivers deem the 7970 (Non GE) equal to the 680?

We don't even have to talk about Cats 12.8. 1Ghz HD7970 is going for $388 on Newegg and that roughly equals GTX680 even with older Cats 12.7 drivers. You also get Sleeping Dogs and NV's BL2 promotion is no longer in effect on Newegg.

 

[f1sherman]

It's not implying anything, it's stating a fact. A 7850 can be had for a final cost of $160...it's not a leap of faith here...

And possibility of having even a single GTX650 Ti listed for less than MSRP is a leap of faith

 

[AnonymouseUser]

That's why NV continues to charge premiums. You exclusively bought nV products for 12 years and NV had some real bombs/slower generations along the way in terms of performance (FX5000 series, GF7) and since HD4800/5800/6900 series worse price/performance overall. The only way NV will start offering good value is if more consumers vote with their wallets that they care about price/performance. If not, NV has no incentive to drop prices.

Gigabyte Windforce 3x GTX670 is still going for $399.99 on Newegg. That card was $399.99 on launch date. Can't blame NV if the consumer thinks 6 months old technology hasn't eroded in value by even $1.

FWIW, I skipped the FX- and 7-series completely. Nvidia also delivered superior performance under Linux, but that has eroded. AMD's Window's drivers are just as good as Nvidia's. Nvidia just doesn't have the advantages it used to, so I don't see any reason to pay a premium for their performance anymore.

 

[wand3r3r]

"A non overclocked GeForce GTX 660 Ti video card will need to play with PhysX set to Medium or else the performance will drop under 35 FPS for extended periods of time during the combat intense areas of the game." HardOCP

We've already established in the BL2 thread that even GTX680/GTX680 SLI can drop to below 30fps with PhysX High. PhysX on GTX650Ti is an oxymoron as the card is way too slow to use it.



We don't even have to talk about Cats 12.8. 1Ghz HD7970 is going for $388 on Newegg and that roughly equals GTX680 even with older Cats 12.7 drivers.

The 650 ti could be used for a secondary card for physx.
(It's still overpriced)