Greta is chosen as Time's Person of the Year

[IronWing]

People have come up with solutions, nobody wants to implement them because they're too expensive/require too much change/climate change isn't a thing. So we continue to make the rounds of 'climate change is a thing!' 'great, how do we fix it' 'do these things!' 'nope' 'climate change is a thing and is now getting worse!' ...ad infinitum.

Are the solutions really expensive or just expensive for the wrong people? Fossil fuel producers will not make as much money as they do now so, "too expensive".

 

[zinfamous]

Finally something to address!

First off we generally do talk about water vapor being an “emission”. It’s a forcing.

Second the bulk of greenhouse gas warming is actually a good thing. Without it the planet would be an iceball.

In the chart below note that without a greenhouse atmosphere the temperature of the earth should be -18C. Instead it’s around 15C.

The problem with your assumption on the water vapor is it’s a lagging indicator of climate change in this case.

Atmospheric water vapor is dependent on the temperature of the atmosphere. With warmer air being more able to hold more water vapor.

Water vapor has been a part of the earth’s atmosphere since it cooled off after formation. We are looking at what’s happened in the last century or so.

For the amount of atmospheric water vapor to increase over that time frame the average atmospheric temperature would have to increase first.

As @Maxima1 pointed out there is no other natural phenomenon that could account for the temperature rise other than CO2 from man-made activity.

The injection of CO2 into the atmosphere starts the atmosphere warming which naturally causes more water vapor to accumulate in the atmosphere which causes more warming.

This is a feedback cycle but it’s root cause is due to human CO2.

It's amusing isn't it?

--It's not CO2, it's the water vapor! Water vapor is natural!
--Um, how did an astonishing amount of water vapor get trapped in the atmosphere, in a very unnatural way?

---I don't care! It's water vapor! It's natural! take that, libtards!

 

[mect]

Do you really think that Greta's speeches helped, though? Sure, they energized the climate change activists, but they pissed off big business and the climate change deniers. Most centrists ignored her as well.

On a big issue like this that requires assistance from everyone to resolve, all she did is make the liberal/conservative divide on this issue just a little bit bigger and a little bit harder to overcome later on.

Yes, I think it helped. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm of the opinion that it is too late to ever hope to bring big business or climate change deniers to the table in any sort of meaningful way. Around 2/3rds of Americans currently view climate change as a crisis. The problem is that a large portion of that population are younger and/or progressive, both populations that historically don't show up reliably to vote. I think the time for healing talks between progressives and conservatives is past. The only hope I personally see is to rally those that accept the science and get them to turnout on election day. In all honesty, if democrats don't retake the senate and the presidency in 2020, the world is likely fucked, and that isn't hyperbole. Even then, it might not matter, particularly if the dems that get elected are beholden to corporate donors.

 

[KMFJD]

7.30

www.abc.net.au

this might help some posters

 

[pcgeek11]

7.30

www.abc.net.au

this might help some posters

Funny some may actually need help.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Are the solutions really expensive or just expensive for the wrong people? Fossil fuel producers will not make as much money as they do now so, "too expensive".

At this point, halting climate change (much less reversing it) would likely be the most expensive endeavor that mankind has ever committed to, that includes all wars ever. It would have been just 'really expensive' to coal, oil, and gas manufacturers about 50 years ago, had we just swapped to greener electric sources then. If we had, we'd really just have to get past the concrete manufacturing hurdle and we'd be at what, like 20% our current CO2 output? That'd give us another ~200 years of runway to solve the remaining issues and figure out carbon capture before we hit 2c rise. Instead our timeline is now on the order of two decades or so.

Halting/reversing anything at this point will be a monumental shift.

 

[cytg111]

It's amusing isn't it?

--It's not CO2, it's the water vapor! Water vapor is natural!
--Um, how did an astonishing amount of water vapor get trapped in the atmosphere, in a very unnatural way?

---I don't care! It's water vapor! It's natural! take that, libtards!

Imagine your town be flooded by the next hurricane.
Its a disaster everywhere.
Folks be panicking.
You find your self in a situation where two people are drowning.
You can save one of them.
One of them are wearing a MAGA cap.
Who do you save?

Pure speculation of course.... .

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

You can always tell when conservatives know they are doing something wrong when they blame liberals for making them do it.

The conservative morons that don’t accept climate science don’t listen to liberal or even unbiased sources anyway as they consider them all part of the mystical liberal conspiracy against them. What really needs to happen is conservatives need to clean up their own house. They created these morons by lying to them for decades, now they need to tell them the truth.

Climate change is real and mankind is responsible for basically all of it. (Potentially more than 100% of it) That’s what science says. Time for conservatives to accept science.

It's just like plenty of other topics in that we are often after the same conclusion - the disagreement is simply the path to get there.

When you realize why people get annoyed with your stupid cult-like following of demanding that we only do things your way - you will then realize who the real incompetent side is.

 

[IronWing]

It's just like plenty of other topics in that we are often after the same conclusion - the disagreement is simply the path to get there.

When you realize why people get annoyed with your stupid cult-like following of demanding that we only do things your way - you will then realize who the real incompetent side is.

Conservatives have offered no path to addressing climate change so your point has no validity.

 

[dank69]

It's just like plenty of other topics in that we are often after the same conclusion - the disagreement is simply the path to get there.

When you realize why people get annoyed with your stupid cult-like following of demanding that we only do things your way - you will then realize who the real incompetent side is.

It isn't "our way," it is what the evidence suggests we should do.

 

[Viper1j]

He is Human Scum.

Can we add in some fake outrage from Melania about cyberbullying of children?

Be best! ✌

No, you mean #BeBreast.

 

[fskimospy]

It's just like plenty of other topics in that we are often after the same conclusion - the disagreement is simply the path to get there.

When you realize why people get annoyed with your stupid cult-like following of demanding that we only do things your way - you will then realize who the real incompetent side is.

Like I said, when liberals are wrong it's the liberals' fault. When conservatives are wrong it's... still the liberals' fault. If conservatives have chosen to deny the overwhelming findings of science because liberals are mean to them then they need to grow the fuck up.

You guys need to clean your own house. The people in charge of the conservative movement deliberately lied to their followers for decades and now you have a bunch of morons who don't accept science running around. I don't care how you fix it, vote them out, turn them into Soylent Green, whatever, but conservatives made a mess and frankly liberals are tired of rescuing you incompetents from the consequences of your own bad decisions.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Funny some may actually need help.

Guy I went to school with does, he has a habit of posting dozens of memes with her in them. I’ll admit some are innocent and funny, others are just mean spirited.

I find her sort of annoying as I said earlier but I’m not posting weird memes of her starving people or posting images of her looking deformed. Really strange humor in he MAGA world.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Conservatives have offered no path to addressing climate change so your point has no validity.

Like I said, when liberals are wrong it's the liberals' fault. When conservatives are wrong it's... still the liberals' fault. If conservatives have chosen to deny the overwhelming findings of science because liberals are mean to them then they need to grow the fuck up.

You guys need to clean your own house. The people in charge of the conservative movement deliberately lied to their followers for decades and now you have a bunch of morons who don't accept science running around. I don't care how you fix it, vote them out, turn them into Soylent Green, whatever, but conservatives made a mess and frankly liberals are tired of rescuing you incompetents from the consequences of your own bad decisions.

Why are you making everything in life out to be so decisive based on political party affiliation? Again, you're going about this all wrong.

Roughly 40% of this country identifies as independent - and arguably plenty of people that are registered with a party might not actually identify with them anymore.

 

[IronWing]

Why are you making everything in life out to be so decisive based on political party affiliation? Again, you're going about this all wrong.

Roughly 40% of this country identifies as independent - and arguably plenty of people that are registered with a party might not actually identify with them anymore.

Meanwhile, conservatives have offered no path to address human-caused global warming. If you'd like to offer a conservative approach that addresses the issue, I'll listen.

Edit: A carbon credit market was a deeply conservative idea but the conservatives rejected it for reasons. Now, it's probably too late for that approach to have time to work.

 

[Brainonska511]

Why are you making everything in life out to be so decisive based on political party affiliation? Again, you're going about this all wrong.

Roughly 40% of this country identifies as independent - and arguably plenty of people that are registered with a party might not actually identify with them anymore.

The idea that there are that many "independents" is laughable. Most studies show that so-called independents are actually partisans who just can't admit it to themselves.

 

[zinfamous]

If it is 100% man made then I guess the climate never changed in the entire 5 billion or so years of its existence, right?

I'm assuming you are completely ignorant of the vast numbers of lifeforms that previously existed on this planet, that directly contributed to climate change in their time, driving towards their own extinction?

It's like you think you know something about science, but you never do when you open your mouth.

 

[fskimospy]

Why are you making everything in life out to be so decisive based on political party affiliation? Again, you're going about this all wrong.

Roughly 40% of this country identifies as independent - and arguably plenty of people that are registered with a party might not actually identify with them anymore.

I didn't say anything about political parties, I said conservatives because conservatives are the ones overwhelmingly opposing action on climate change. Conservatives are the ones who spread lies about it for decades, and conservatives are the ones who are still trying to cloud the issue today.

It's not the Republican Party specifically, the entire conservative movement in America is diseased. It's been overtaken by grifters and clowns.

 

[pmv]

I did. And my problem lies in conflicts. In that article, it says "The global warming witnessed over the past 150 years matches nearly perfectly what is expected from greenhouse gas emissions and other human activity, both in the simple model examined here and in more complex climate models. The best estimate of the human contribution to modern warming is around 100%.", when we know the largest cause of greenhouse gas emissions is water vapor. It just doesnt jive.

It jives perfectly well. It's a dynamic system in equilibrium. Water vapor is part of that system, it's already factored in to the temperature of the Earth. The addition of more CO2 will shift that equilibrium temperature upwards. That added CO2 is thus entirely responsible for the increase, even as water vapor continues to play a big role in the feedback system.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

It's a dynamic system in equilibrium.

Worth reiterating that a dynamic system in equilibrium is human-habitation agnostic; it can still kill us. Venus is also a dynamic system in equilibrium.

 

[pmv]

Are the solutions really expensive or just expensive for the wrong people? Fossil fuel producers will not make as much money as they do now so, "too expensive".

I think it might be both. They are expensive, hence even ordinary voters don't like the idea of facing reality, but they are particularly bad for those with the most money and hence the most power to further influence those ordinary voters.

Nobody likes reality. It's a PITA. This is why video games were invented. And religion.

[no slur against video games intended]

 

[pmv]

Worth reiterating that a dynamic system in equilibrium is human-habitation agnostic; it can still kill us. Venus is also a dynamic system in equilibrium.

Sure. The worst case is it reaches a new equillibrium that we aren't involved in.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Sure. The worst case is it reaches a new equillibrium that we aren't involved in.

Arguable, that might end up the best case, if one is to take the rest of the biosphere into the equation.

 

[brycejones]

Well can you Quote that law and provide a reference to it?

Others disagree with you.

https://www.npr.org/2019/11/06/7764...ower-experts-say-it-would-not-violate-any-law

"There is no overarching protection for the identity of the whistleblower under federal law," said Dan Meyer, a lawyer and the former executive director of the intelligence community whistleblower program. "Congress has never provided that protection."

Whistleblower law "provides no protection"
There is a patchwork of whistleblower protections under federal law. The specific framework that applies to the whistleblower who filed a complaint against Trump is outlined in the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act of 1998.
The law bans retaliation against an employee for blowing the whistle on perceived wrongdoing. It requires the inspector general to keep the lid on the whistleblower's name, but it does not stop a member of Congress, a president or anyone else from identifying a whistleblower.


Your Turn ....

Cool, I was wrong then. Good on you for using a decent source.

Now, if is is so important why doesn't Trump do it? If it was Schiff don't you think Trump would tweet that out over and over since he wouldn't be breaking any law as you've pointed out?

The truth is the whistleblower doesn't matter at this point. The material in the complaint was verified by multiple sources since then, including by Trump himself and the transcript. The desire to "name the whistleblower" isn't about this case but really about trying to instill fear to prevent future whistleblowers from coming forward.

So we're still back at you're completely full of shit and have no evidence Schiff is the whistleblower.

 

[brycejones]

I wonder if the people bagging on Greta actually are aware that all available polling puts the under 40 generations here in the US squarely on her side wrt climate change.

Yeah, but those are just the whiny snowflakes who need to shutup and let the people who have fucked up the planet keep doing it.