Got Gas? U.S. Economy to Worsen as Gas Prices Skyrocket

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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
2-23-2012

http://finance.yahoo.com/q;_ylt=AoS...1lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25zBHRlc3QD;_ylv=3?s=clj12.nym

Crude Oil Apr 12 (CLJ12.NYM)

-NY Mercantile

108.61
up_g.gif
2.33(2.19%) 4:55PM EST




http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-drilling-alone-not-energy-193712504.html


Obama: Drilling alone is not an energy plan



Obama: Calls for more drilling are a 'bumper sticker', not an energy pla


President Barack Obama on Thursday assailed Republicans for what he described as a flawed and dishonest strategy for reducing gas prices, predicting his rivals would offer nothing but more drilling and political promises of $2-a-gallon gas. Said the president: "The American people aren't stupid."

Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich has said he could lower prices to $2.50 a gallon.

Obama insisted there are no short-term solutions to high gas prices, and that anyone suggesting otherwise was not being honest. Still, he sought to offer something to anxious voters by saying he had ordered his administration to search for every possible area to help consumers in the coming months.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
2-23-2012

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...cy-florida-speech-coming-under-203701273.html

Obama defends his energy policy in Florida speech, after coming under fire for high gas prices


In a blistering election-year attack on his political foes, President Barack Obama charged Thursday that Republicans are "licking their chops" over painfully high gas prices that threaten the fragile economic recovery.

"Only in politics do people root for bad news and they greet bad news so enthusiastically," he said in a combative speech at the University of Miami. "You pay more, and they're licking their chops."


The defiant rhetoric came after days in which the White House has worked to get off the defensive over high gasoline prices, insisting that Obama has done everything he can to bring those costs down.

Ahead of the speech, Republicans sent reporters findings from independent fact-checking organizations that show the drop in oil imports, which Obama ascribes to his policies, actually stems from declining demand, which has resulted from the worst recession since the Great Depression.


And Republican Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell scoffed at Obama's call to end government subsidies to hugely profitable oil companies — a stable of the president's campaign rhetoric.


"If someone in the administration can show me that raising taxes on American energy production will lower gas prices and create jobs, then I will gladly discuss it," said McConnell. "But since nobody can, and the president doesn't, this is merely an attempt to deflect from his failed policies."
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,704
54,697
136
Not liberal, but with a decided Democrat tilt. If they were really liberal they'd strive much harder to be objective.

Also a myth, as previously described in numerous threads on here.

The idea that conservatives are persecuted by the media is an article of faith among the American right however, I sincerely doubt any amount of evidence will be able to shake that culture of victimhood.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,704
54,697
136
You'll never be right.

You live in New York City without a car, you do not qualify.

Who knew that you needed to live outside of NYC and have a car to predict that Dave would come rushing to take credit for something only about 4 1/2 years after his initial claims of $5 a gallon.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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So, what kinds of practical transportation alternatives are there to driving? (We'll assume that a magic bus doesn't make stops near your doorstep and your workplace.)

People could begin bicycling. Maybe there's some sort of a way to attach a side car to a bicycle for carrying groceries.

Would scooters be MPG efficient?

I'm glad I live within walking distance of a good grocery store. As food prices rise as a result of the increasing gas prices, I'm not gonna wanna drive there. (Heck, it already doesn't make sense to start the car to drive 1/3 mile. I need the exercise anyway.)
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
So, what kinds of practical transportation alternatives are there to driving? (We'll assume that a magic bus doesn't make stops near your doorstep and your workplace.)

People could begin bicycling. Maybe there's some sort of a way to attach a side car to a bicycle for carrying groceries.

Would scooters be MPG efficient?

I'm glad I live within walking distance of a good grocery store. As food prices rise as a result of the increasing gas prices, I'm not gonna wanna drive there. (Heck, it already doesn't make sense to start the car to drive 1/3 mile. I need the exercise anyway.)
Where I live, none. Even people who ride bicycles every day drive to flat ground; even kids don't ride bicycles up the ridge. Best I can do is take my Ninja, which gets about 50 mpg. Next best alternative would be to drive to a bus stop. However, many of our job sites are not on bus lines and would be quite expensive for taxi service, not to mention the wasted time. Week before this I worked 90 hours Thursday through Wednesday - imagine that if I had to take public transportation!
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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I started doing some research. Apparently there are cargo car additions for bikes selling for under $200:

http://www.biketrailershop.com/croozer-cargo-trailers-c-200.html

http://www.amazon.com/Aosom-Bicycle-Cargo-Trailer-yellow-Black/dp/B0029KBA26

There are also rechargeable electric motor-driven bicycles for under $3000. I guess you can pedal when you want to and then engage a motor to help you out on hills or if you're pulling groceries:

http://www.biketechshop.com/a2b-velociti-ebike-p-2166.html

http://www.biketechshop.com/a2b-metro-ebike-p-2185.html

Of course, if you're riding one of those you'd better find some good ways to securely lock those puppies. I'd also worry about people stealing parts off of the bike (like the Lithium ion battery).

What do practical scooters cost, and would they be energy efficient?
 

ky54

Senior member
Mar 30, 2010
532
1
76
Let's see... 10 years ago Bush was assailed by the Democrats saying it would take 10 years for drilling to make any effect. 10 years later... America's chickens... are coming home... to roost.
 

redgtxdi

Diamond Member
Jun 23, 2004
5,464
8
81
Let's see... 10 years ago Bush was assailed by the Democrats saying it would take 10 years for drilling to make any effect. 10 years later... America's chickens... are coming home... to roost.

Touché !!!

I just got done hearing the clips of Obama spewing off about the GOPs 3 point plan. Drill, drill and keep drilling. Well, WTF do you propose else we do, you ignorant mother fscker!!!

I still, for the life of me, cannot figure out how that ANWR pipeline is not on the fast track to DONE!!
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
What I was thinking of was a rechargeable electric moped, not really scooters. I wonder if there's an equivalent of Edmunds.com for mopeds.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Touché !!!

I just got done hearing the clips of Obama spewing off about the GOPs 3 point plan. Drill, drill and keep drilling. Well, WTF do you propose else we do, you ignorant mother fscker!!!

I still, for the life of me, cannot figure out how that ANWR pipeline is not on the fast track to DONE!!

Maybe because there is no shortage of oil?

It's overflowing all over the place.
 

DirthNader

Senior member
Mar 21, 2005
466
0
0
2-23-2012

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/022312-almost-6-a-gallon-for-gas-in-tourism-area

Almost $6 a gallon for gas in tourism area

Some gas stations are charging big bucks to fill up and they're not the ones located near Orlando International Airport. With gas prices close to $6.00 a gallon, some tourists are feeling the pinch near Disney.



Again, exploiting tourists. These are the same people paying $10 for a cafeteria-grade hamburger. Should we say that food prices are spiraling out of control?

http://www.orlandogasprices.com/index.aspx?area=Belle Isle

You're trolling. Gas isn't "nearing $6 in Orlando".
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
If you pay around $6 for a gallon do you say you paid $4?
Burgers up to $200, everybody run for the hills. http://www.disassociated.com/2008/06/19/the-200-hamburger-what-next-the-1000-burger/

You don't understand his question because you don't want to. I hope he doesn't try and explain it to you as you will inevitably continue to miss the point as you have throughout this entire thread, posting fringe, irrelevant numbers to backup whatever argument makes gas seem the most dire and the highest. There are virtually no Orlando gas stations even charging $4.00, so why you continue to obsess over this idiotic station's almost-$6 is something only you know, as it makes no sense to anybody else.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Touché !!!

I just got done hearing the clips of Obama spewing off about the GOPs 3 point plan. Drill, drill and keep drilling. Well, WTF do you propose else we do, you ignorant mother fscker!!!

I still, for the life of me, cannot figure out how that ANWR pipeline is not on the fast track to DONE!!
Leftists in general and Obama in particular hate oil. Obama said even while campaigning that he wanted gas prices to rise, just not so abruptly (and presumably with the additional money going to government, not to oil producers and foreign nations.) His major problem with high gas prices is political, otherwise this discourages consumption which limits greenhouse gases, stretches the supply of oil, limits drilling (often environmentally very damaging), and provides yet another political opportunity to "spread the wealth around" via government confiscation and redistribution. Even this political problem is due mostly to people's erroneous assumption that the President runs the economy and the nation, and therefore controls gas prices. In reality the President mostly controls access to drilling offshore and on public lands, and neither leases nor drilling permits are likely to seriously affect gas prices during a President's term because of the long lead time in reaching the market. Obama's biggest technical hurdle is the current lack of effective alternatives to oil. If we had better and more affordable batteries and solar arrays, Obama could have his cake and eat it too, with high fossil fuel prices driving people away toward alternative energy sources as liberals desire. (A movement by the way that HAS to take place at some point.)

That said, while I'm in favor of drilling in ANWR I'm not at all sure it will be any kind of panacea. In the end, the market sets the price of everything, as it should. Oil production and distribution cost a LOT to get into and there aren't all that many players. I suspect that if we flooded the market with an additional 10% oil, we wouldn't see the theoretical market response of drastically lower prices to avoid being the one whose oil didn't sell, but rather we'd see oil companies and OPEC nations reducing supplies (perhaps without actually admitting it) to keep the price at the new stable level of $80 to $100 per barrel.

In the end, nobody owes us cheap oil. Oil companies and oil producing nations will act in their own best interests, as they should, and while this will damage our economy which is built on cheap energy much more so than is that of most nations, it's the way the market is supposed to work. We can and should develop our own fossil fuel supplies and alternative energy supplies, but in the end oil, like every commodity, costs what a supplier agrees to take and a buyer agrees to pay.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Burgers up to $200, everybody run for the hills. http://www.disassociated.com/2008/06/19/the-200-hamburger-what-next-the-1000-burger/

You don't understand his question because you don't want to. I hope he doesn't try and explain it to you as you will inevitably continue to miss the point as you have throughout this entire thread, posting fringe, irrelevant numbers to backup whatever argument makes gas seem the most dire and the highest. There are virtually no Orlando gas stations even charging $4.00, so why you continue to obsess over this idiotic station's almost-$6 is something only you know, as it makes no sense to anybody else.

So after all that typing your answer is when you pay $6 you will say you paid $4 anyway because all the rest are around $4. Gotcha.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
1) In the end, the market sets the price of everything, as it should. Oil production and distribution cost a LOT to get into and there aren't all that many players.

2) In the end, nobody owes us cheap oil.

Not true on both counts.

The market does not set the price. You are right that it is a few players, a few rich monopoly players that control the price.

If that was the case then why are we giving the Oil Companies Tax breaks?
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Also a myth, as previously described in numerous threads on here.

The idea that conservatives are persecuted by the media is an article of faith among the American right however, I sincerely doubt any amount of evidence will be able to shake that culture of victimhood.

Oh, if it's a myth and it's been described at the mighty P&N then it must just be a conservative invention. Bullshit. If you think that various media outlets don't favor Democrats over Republicans you're either lying, or kidding yourself.
No amount of proof I can show you will ever allow you to tell the truth, since it's too much of an advantage for the left.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Like I said, you need some speculation, otherwise there would have very few to take the long side of oil trades (there are more natural sellers than buyers) and there would be a huge amount of volatility in oil prices. Oil and gas prices would move huge based on short term supply disruptions etc.

AFAIC, oil and most other commodities should not be seen as investments. There are a lot of indexed products (ETF's, Mutual Funds, etc.) and pensions that purchase commodities simply for the inflation hedge. Then it becomes a question of is it the commodities that are increasing in price causing the inflation, or vice versa.

You need speculators, you don't need investments that are simply long-only conduits to buy commodities. That market is significantly smaller than the large spec/banking market but it adds marginal buyers that probably shouldn't be there to begin with. Get rid of them and I think the price goes down but it is going to be marginally, not huge.

If you make the banks take delivery, they will simply buy more ships and containment to take delivery the price will then be passed on through higher prices and wider bid/offer spreads.

As I said, there is probably too much speculation in the oil markets, however it is most likely not by the banks that everyone looks to. It is the small marginal buyers that are long-only as an inflation hedge that add-on and add-on to the price. Commodities with the huge implicit leverage in them have larger than expected moves to the upside based on relatively small marginal buyers.

It makes no sense to have investment vehicles that have to be long all the time in the commodities market regardless of price. Commodities need to be bi-directional and futures are some of the easiest investments to short.
Good info, thanks. My natural bias against trading which adds no value wars with my natural bias against government interfering unnecessarily with commerce, and I don't know enough to really evaluate the claims and counter-claims of the impact of speculation, meaning speculation as a direct profit vehicle or as a general hedge against inflation rather than as a hedge against economic damage through volatility, on prices to come down on either side. (Luckily my lack of opinion affects no one. LOL)
 

DirthNader

Senior member
Mar 21, 2005
466
0
0

LOL

You don't understand his question because you don't want to. I hope he doesn't try and explain it to you as you will inevitably continue to miss the point...

Don't worry, I'm not going to attempt to explain anything to him.

To answer his question about $6 gas in Orlando, I'll simply remind him that a broken clock is right twice a day.
 

The-Noid

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,117
4
76
Good info, thanks. My natural bias against trading which adds no value wars with my natural bias against government interfering unnecessarily with commerce, and I don't know enough to really evaluate the claims and counter-claims of the impact of speculation, meaning speculation as a direct profit vehicle or as a general hedge against inflation rather than as a hedge against economic damage through volatility, on prices to come down on either side. (Luckily my lack of opinion affects no one. LOL)

Well just look at it this way.

Today is a payroll for a lot of companies that pay every 2 weeks. Otherwise Tuesday will be payroll for the month-end. Companies withdraw from paychecks for both pension contributions and 401(k). The money that goes into the pension or 401(k)s that have commodity funds will invest the money (as they should) to their policy portfolio. If the policy portfolio consists of oil or oil derivatives they will buy more at the current price (whether they believe the fundamentals or not).

The commodities market is set up for two way trading and over the last 20 years the market has let in more and more participants that are long only. Whether that be through stacks or strips or oil derivatives/cash settles, they still continue to be marginal buyers regardless of price. The pension money tends to be more sticky, whereas the 401k money that goes to mutual funds obviously tends to be more flexible and tends to chase higher prices and then sell (exacerbating swings), none of these participants should be in the oil or even any commodities markets to begin with. Let them play in the inflation derivatives market/indexed markets, keep them out of physicals. Seems fairly straight forward to me.

The order book in oil is very thin right now on the offer side (no one wants to sell when Iran could come out with some market moving news tomorrow or the next day) and these relatively small marginal buyers have a much larger impact then in normal supply/demand times because of thin liquidity.