GOP Debate #1

[LegendKiller]

Yea I am sure contractors would LOVE to hire $25/hr Americans instead of $10/hr illegals. They are simply too scared of the political backlash that would come from paying a livable wage to their workers. Curiously, what exactly is keeping the contractors from paying the illegals at the same rate as Americans? Odd that.....

Sure, they just take less of a profit and charge more, just like every contractor who doesn't hire illegals.

I bet you don't care about offshoring either. Same thing. Some CEO says "Well, shit, those Chinese work for less, hire them instead". Meanwhile he just pauperized his entire workforce , they now have to buy the chinese shit at Wal Mart that they would have been making in the USA. Nevermind that they are now working at Wal Mart too, or are on Welfare.

This is a vicious cycle that will never end until cowardly Americans are called out for their treasonous and idiotically short-sighted positions.

 

[LegendKiller]

Regardless, even if you found a way to deport every illegal, Americans would not do those jobs at the same prices.

Which prices? The jobs are already being done by Americans, if they have to pay more (and charge more) then so be it.

What do you think happens when we stop holding legality over the illegal's heads and make them citizens? Do you magically think that they'll not demand more once the threat of deportation is gone?

The only reason why they have to take less than what an American takes is because they have to, it is the only way. Once that threat is gone they will get paid what an American gets paid, or something in between. The biggest cost saving is gone. So no matter how you look at it, you're looking at a dead-end street.

Might as well get rid of them.

 

[LegendKiller]

No I didn't call them a citizen. Being American and being a citizen are different things. Mexicans born in Mexico aren't always Mexicans if they come here as children and live here for decades while having their own children, regardless of their status on paper. If we were to define "American" based solely on legal status, we'd define several founding fathers as aliens.

So now laws don't matter. It's all about status in your mind.

 

[Bitek]

There are plenty of people who will work those businesses.

Uh huh. Said from no experience.

The landscaper tried hiring gringos, has a few, but they work slow, complain a lot, and the turnover rate is very high.

A great uncle has a large fruit farm, natives never show up during picking season and those that do quit after one day.


Trump has it all backwards, the people coming here are a cut of the best workers in the home country. They travel great distances away from home, endure great hardship and expense to get here, but they come bc they want to work hard and make money for their families.

The natives that work these jobs are the ones who couldn't use all the riches and advantages of native language and excellent education in order to get better jobs. If you want to find the drug users and the losers, I'd know where to go to look.

 

[fskimospy]

Sure, they just take less of a profit and charge more, just like every contractor who doesn't hire illegals.

I bet you don't care about offshoring either. Same thing. Some CEO says "Well, shit, those Chinese work for less, hire them instead". Meanwhile he just pauperized his entire workforce , they now have to buy the chinese shit at Wal Mart that they would have been making in the USA. Nevermind that they are now working at Wal Mart too, or are on Welfare.

This is a vicious cycle that will never end until cowardly Americans are called out for their treasonous and idiotically short-sighted positions.

Are you calling for autarky? That's sure what it sounds like.

 

[werepossum]

How hard is it to keep the tip anonymous?

From what I've seen, anonymous tips are largely ignored. The federal government simply isn't in the business of catching and deporting illegals these days.

I think you are overstating the wage depression for a contract work. It's not like these guys with accept 50 cents an hour. This is still skilled work and the wages are still relatively high. One of the contractors largest challenges is still finding capable people. It's not like labor markets are really slack and highly vulnerable to wage deflation. Yeah they might get a bit of a break on wages for undocumented workers, but they also have to guarantee their work and their livelihood depends on the quality of it. It doesn't always pay to go cheap.

What another issue is, is contracting companies not using properly licensed workers, such as unlicensed plumbers to do jobs when licensing is required. This happens regardless of the nationality of the worker.

The Landscaping field might be more vulnerable to this, but it's also really hard work and there's not that many people signing up to do it. Besides customers will only still pay so much, so prices have to be competitive regardless. Even if you got rid of all of them, costs can only rise so much before it became too expensive for clientele.

I know this from many immediate family members and close friends in these fields owning these businesses.

In most areas where I work (almost forty states) it depends almost entirely on the presence and strength of unions. Locally for instance unions are fairly strong and while we have plenty of non-Union electricians, there aren't many illegals working electrical. Parts of Florida we've had AHJs busting our balls on permitting and when we eventually get the story off the record, it's because our sub has one licensed journeyman (who has to run all the company's jobs) and a buttload of illegals. Contractors don't drop skilled labor for guys who were laborers or farmers a month ago for "a bit of a break". Drywallers for instance are locally non-Union, non-apprenticeship. When I first started doing AEC engineering, journeyman drywallers earned $18.50. Ten years later the going rate was $10 and you would be hard pressed to find one who could answer "Where is your boss?" Unless you can ask it in Spanish anyway. Twelve years later the rate is about $12.

I'm sure this is a lot more defensible to owners who use illegals, but it is depressing wages for Americans. Americans matter even if they don't own the companies, and this trend is driving us toward a very large working class earning a fairly flat range and a comparatively small class of wealthy resource owners and investors. Not a good thing.

 

[dank69]

Which prices? The jobs are already being done by Americans, if they have to pay more (and charge more) then so be it.

What do you think happens when we stop holding legality over the illegal's heads and make them citizens? Do you magically think that they'll not demand more once the threat of deportation is gone?

The only reason why they have to take less than what an American takes is because they have to, it is the only way. Once that threat is gone they will get paid what an American gets paid, or something in between. The biggest cost saving is gone. So no matter how you look at it, you're looking at a dead-end street.

Might as well get rid of them.

That's where we differ in philosophy. Might as well destroy lives and rip apart families because their being here illegally barely affects my life. Instead, I say, might as well worry about issues that actually make a difference. Maybe something like ending the War on Drugs. That will have an actual positive effect on many of the problems you attribute to illegals and save us money as opposed to spending more on a wall that will never be effective.

 

[flexy]

I bet you don't care about offshoring either. Same thing. Some CEO says "Well, shit, those Chinese work for less, hire them instead". Meanwhile he just pauperized his entire workforce , they now have to buy the chinese shit at Wal Mart that they would have been making in the USA. Nevermind that they are now working at Wal Mart too, or are on Welfare.

Limiting or penalizing offshoring/outsourcing *in my opinion* is the key to bring wealth back to America.

A system where companies can legally outsource entire branches, 1000s of workers to India, Pakistan, China etc. simply CANNOT BE SUSTAINED.

This is the root of many problems we have, loss of jobs, masses of people becoming poor, the flux of money *and* jobs abroad.

How can this system work? It doesn't! It's suicide!

It's a system where a very few (corporates, business owners) benefits only because of course a corporate can cut costs by doing this, by having $0.50/hr Indians working for them.

But no-one bats an eye, no-one understands that this is the key.

It is seen as "ok" since giving corporates this freedom to do *anything* they want to do to to cut costs is seen as a basis of "capitalism".

But no corporate will voluntarily stop doing this - this is why there MUST BE laws and regulations that those companies (the majority of them, really) must be taxed out the a$$. Of course, would such regulations ever come it will cause big screams "socialism" but IMO there is no way around this, no matter how many will scream.

Anything else, the trivial nonsense focusing on illegal immigrants and "rapists" won't solve anything, if anything it's a distraction for the ignorant masses.

As long as offshoring and 3rld world manufacturing will happen, a very few 1% (or less) will happily count their profit, and the rest will get poorer. It's such a simply thing to grasp but many don't. Eg. because there are still some who (have been made to) believe that the profit of, say, Apple or HP "trickles down" to them.

 

[werepossum]

That's where we differ in philosophy. Might as well destroy lives and rip apart families because their being here illegally barely affects my life. Instead, I say, might as well worry about issues that actually make a difference. Maybe something like ending the War on Drugs. That will have an actual positive effect on many of the problems you attribute to illegals and save us money as opposed to spending more on a wall that will never be effective.

So your life is the only one for which you give a fuck? What about the guy who loses his $20/hour meat plant job because the company hires illegals for $10 and now he can't make his mortgage payment or buy his kids braces on his $9/hour Walmart job? Why don't you care if his life is ripped apart?

 

[fskimospy]

Limiting or penalizing offshoring/outsourcing *in my opinion* is the key to bring wealth back to America.

A system where companies can legally outsource entire branches, 1000s of workers to India, Pakistan, China etc. simply CANNOT BE SUSTAINED.

This is the root of many problems we have, loss of jobs, masses of people becoming poor, the flux of money *and* jobs abroad.

How can this system work? It doesn't! It's suicide!

It's a system where a very few (corporates, business owners) benefits only because of course a corporate can cut costs by doing this, by having $0.50/hr Indians working for them.

But no-one bats an eye, no-one understands that this is the key.

It is seen as "ok" since giving corporates this freedom to do *anything* they want to do to to cut costs is seen as a basis of "capitalism".

But no corporate will voluntarily stop doing this - this is why there MUST BE laws and regulations that those companies (the majority of them, really) must be taxed out the a$$. Of course, would such regulations ever come it will cause big screams "socialism" but IMO there is no way around this, no matter how many will scream.

Anything else, the trivial nonsense focusing on illegal immigrants and "rapists" won't solve anything, if anything it's a distraction for the ignorant masses.

As long as offshoring and 3rld world manufacturing will happen, a very few 1% (or less) will happily count their profit, and the rest will get poorer. It's such a simply thing to grasp but many don't. Eg. because there are still some who (have been made to) believe that the profit of, say, Apple or HP "trickles down" to them.

So we should make everything we use in America? I'm not trying to be deliberately extreme, but there is only one country in the world that follows that philosophy and that's North Korea.

If you aren't saying that, then what?

 

[soundforbjt]

So your life is the only one for which you give a fuck? What about the guy who loses his $20/hour meat plant job because the company hires illegals for $10 and now he can't make his mortgage payment or buy his kids braces on his $9/hour Walmart job? Why don't you care if his life is ripped apart?

His former boss sure didn't care. His only thought was more profit for him and screw those who wouldn't sacrifice their pay for his benefit. Why do people stand up for the "job creators" when all they care about is their ass and not the american worker's they employ?

The right has wanted to get rid of unions for years and have done a great job of weakening them or outright destroying them completely. Congratulations, you're now reaping the benefits of your actions. Unions can be bad, but one thing they did help with was raising everyone else's wages up even in non-union shops.

 

[dank69]

So your life is the only one for which you give a fuck? What about the guy who loses his $20/hour meat plant job because the company hires illegals for $10 and now he can't make his mortgage payment or buy his kids braces on his $9/hour Walmart job? Why don't you care if his life is ripped apart?

I'm sure once you plug realistic numbers into your rant you will find it doesn't make sense anymore.

 

[First]

I certainly don't fully agree with First, but I wish more conservatives in this forum would remember its a complex issue and stop just spouting "build a wall and ship'em home" as if the problem was that easy to solve. BTW I'm not saying you've said those things, just making a point.

Well, my point is what makes someone American is hardly a quality limited to legal status. In practical day-to-day life, no one wonders about their next-door neighbor's legal status when thinking about Americanism. The ideas, principles and history behind U.S. Americanism is quite broad, but the core ingredients that make someone American are clear. So a Mexican or Central American fleeing for a better life to enter America (illegally) doesn't bother me because the net effect is almost always going to be reinforcing positive American values; hard work, family, religion and oodles of entrepreneurship based on my experience and certainly plenty of studies. Many pay sales and property taxes, many eventually become legalized (and nearly half came here with a legal visa), so as you said, the complexity of the illegal immigrant issue is certainly far more nuanced than the black-and-white knuckledragging positions you see from conservatives.

So the vitriol is odd to me, but that's because, unlike nearly all the conservative posters here, I have direct experience being born and raised in an environment with lots of legal and illegal immigrants, both in my neighborhood and theirs. And the values they espouse are sufficiently American by almost any reasonable standard. Their children, especially, are obviously American beyond reproach by the standards of the Constitution, of course. But many undocumented parents aren't far behind in spirit, either.

 

[soundforbjt]

Looks like Rick Perry could possibly be out soon. Just saw that he has suspended paying his campaign staff due to lack of funding for his campaign. Guess he can't find a billionaire who thinks he's worth it.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Anyone who's rich enough to rub two nickels together should be smart enough to know that Perry is more likely to land in the big house than the Whitehouse.

Rubio had cash problems too at least before the debate and I doubt that changed much:
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...donors-turning-to-others-in-presidential-race
I don't see how anyone can look at that guy and see anything other than a lightweight.

 

[Blackjack200]

Are you calling for autarky? That's sure what it sounds like.

For a CFA his understanding of international trade is complete shit. This is not even debated by serious economists. International trade has such enormous benefits that countries that can't agree on anything else will usually figure out ways to trade with each other.

So we should make everything we use in America? I'm not trying to be deliberately extreme, but there is only one country in the world that follows that philosophy and that's North Korea.

If you aren't saying that, then what?

People that rail against trade agreements, and China "manipulating their currency" and all this garbage ignore the fact that -trade or no trade - economies evolve. It was barely 150 years ago that virtually the entire American workforce consisted of farmers. What percentage is that today? 2%.

We have tremendous demand for skilled labor in this country, but our government has not been effective at re-training the labor that is displaced by trade and automation.

 

[Phokus]

I wonder if this is going to be sort of a reverse Mitt Romney situation where all the crazies were split between multiple candidates but Romney was the only 'moderate' one in the field so he got the nod.

Whereas now you have a bunch of crazies splitting the crazy vote and the supernova of crazies, Donald Trump taking the crazy wing of the crazies. Donald might get the nod.

 

[bshole]

So we should make everything we use in America? I'm not trying to be deliberately extreme, but there is only one country in the world that follows that philosophy and that's North Korea.

If you aren't saying that, then what?

An American company making products to sell in America should manufacture those products in America. That is the key to maintaining a country's strength. We are fast losing our manufacturing expertise, we are paying for the priveledge of giving it away to the Asians.... WE PAY THEM TO TAKE WHAT TOOK AMERICANS DECADES TO PERFECT!

 

[BoberFett]

Well, my point is what makes someone American is hardly a quality limited to legal status.

I don't recall anyone ever saying it was limited to legal status. But legal status is a part of being American. If it's not, why have a naturalization process at all?

In practical day-to-day life, no one wonders about their next-door neighbor's legal status when thinking about Americanism. The ideas, principles and history behind U.S. Americanism is quite broad, but the core ingredients that make someone American are clear.

They are? Please, list them.

So a Mexican or Central American fleeing for a better life to enter America (illegally) doesn't bother me because the net effect is almost always going to be reinforcing positive American values; hard work, family, religion and oodles of entrepreneurship based on my experience and certainly plenty of studies. Many pay sales and property taxes, many eventually become legalized (and nearly half came here with a legal visa), so as you said, the complexity of the illegal immigrant issue is certainly far more nuanced than the black-and-white knuckledragging positions you see from conservatives.

Ah, there it is. The standard insult for anyone with a different opinion than you.

So the vitriol is odd to me, but that's because, unlike nearly all the conservative posters here, I have direct experience being born and raised in an environment with lots of legal and illegal immigrants, both in my neighborhood and theirs. And the values they espouse are sufficiently American by almost any reasonable standard. Their children, especially, are obviously American beyond reproach by the standards of the Constitution, of course. But many undocumented parents aren't far behind in spirit, either.

So to a bleeding-heart moron, all it takes to be an American is hard work, family, religion and entrepreneurship? Then there are billions of Americans around the world. Either that or those are the qualities of GOOD PEOPLE, regardless of where they're a citizen. Sorry, but it's not this country's job to house every good person. They need to make the place they're from better rather than always running away to where it's already good. You might not think it's fair, but that's life.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

OMG, this is getting so very delicious:
Bristol Palin: Erickson Wasn't Worried About Sexism When It Came To My Mom

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Just checking in here. The "Debate" will certainly give this thread some extended life, as new poll results come in.

I could say it's only "my opinion," but the hard-core Trump supporters seem blind to at least two things:

1) His Narcissism-- marked as well by a bullying personality. One of the history channels is well-known for endless takes on the Fuhrer and the Reich. Most recently, possibly even a deliberate effort to offer counterpoint to Trump, "Six Days that Made the Monster" ran. Obviously, as with many flawed leaders in history, Hitler's narcissism is traced from his infancy and his interaction with his mother. [Narcissists typically grew up under a doting mother.] This does not mean that Trump would do everything Hitler did; it only highlights his tendency toward demagoguery and the personality traits that would make him a bad elected leader -- or President for that matter.

2) From the news-history of the past month or so, I get the impression that the Trump supporters think "illegal immigration" is the biggest problem facing the nation. Solving it shouldn't be the Manhatten Project. The options deal with existing illegal residents, protecting the border and other facets.

However, if you ask me, the problems creating the migration from South of the border are the problems that need to be addressed -- if illegal immigration is only a symptom or by-product of those problem.

The rest of it some would see from my posts. What I see as an underlying source of many problems discussed hasn't been mentioned in the debates.

 

[chowderhead]

Looks like Rick Perry could possibly be out soon. Just saw that he has suspended paying his campaign staff due to lack of funding for his campaign. Guess he can't find a billionaire who thinks he's worth it.

actually he has some sugar daddies in Texas as his superpacs raised about 16 million last quarter or so. They have lots of money but cannot coordinate with the campaign. Even if they paid all the staffers, they will have to wait 4 months to start working for the super pac. All the pacs and campaigns will do is set up twitter accounts and tweet open messages to each other. Trained monkeys can then know what each wants to do. It is a ridiculous system thanks to Citizens United and the SCOTUS.

 

[First]

I don't recall anyone ever saying it was limited to legal status. But legal status is a part of being American. If it's not, why have a naturalization process at all?

Legal status is certainly part of being American. How much? To me, not all that much. It's a small percentage. I think most people would say legal status doesn't change someone's core American values. Practically, you know this to be true, as I would find it hard to believe you actively seek to discover or wonder about your neighbor's legal status.

They are? Please, list them.

I list them in your next quote; hard work, family, religion, entrepreneurship.

Ah, there it is. The standard insult for anyone with a different opinion than you.

I'm not necessarily referring to you. I honestly don't know your full position on immigration. I think you know plenty of conservatives, a not so small faction, have special vitriol for illegal immigrants that flies in the face of their actual contributions and impact.

So to a bleeding-heart moron, all it takes to be an American is hard work, family, religion and entrepreneurship?

Ok, what's more American than that? Voting in U.S. elections? Clothing yourself in the flag? Feel free to contribute your explanation.

Then there are billions of Americans around the world.

One requirement is that you have to have lived in the U.S. a while Bober, come on!

Either that or those are the qualities of GOOD PEOPLE, regardless of where they're a citizen. Sorry, but it's not this country's job to house every good person. They need to make the place they're from better rather than always running away to where it's already good. You might not think it's fair, but that's life.

Yes that's not fair, and neither is life...but how does life not being fair mean we should actively be fine with making it less fair? Doesn't really pass the smell test, does it? Btw, we shouldn't let more people in than is possible to afford/assimilate, and we should also secure the border. None of that precludes us treating illegal immigrants and especially their children as anything but hard working Americans who happen to have come from another country. They made the mistake of coming illegally, from the perspective of good judgment, but this does not make them less American. To be clear, I'm talking about permanent, working, contributing residents, a vast majority of whom have children.

 

[fskimospy]

An American company making products to sell in America should manufacture those products in America. That is the key to maintaining a country's strength. We are fast losing our manufacturing expertise, we are paying for the priveledge of giving it away to the Asians.... WE PAY THEM TO TAKE WHAT TOOK AMERICANS DECADES TO PERFECT!

So the North Korea model then. How fun for us!

I haven't checked lately, how's that working for them? Super well, I assume.

 

[BoberFett]

Legal status is certainly part of being American. How much? To me, not all that much. It's a small percentage. I think most people would say legal status doesn't change someone's core American values. Practically, you know this to be true, as I would find it hard to believe you actively seek to discover or wonder about your neighbor's legal status.

Given the massive financial advantages to being an American, I don't believe we can afford to just claim that anyone who wants to be is an American.

I list them in your next quote; hard work, family, religion, entrepreneurship.

I realize that, it was a setup for your next quote.

I'm not necessarily referring to you. I honestly don't know your full position on immigration. I think you know plenty of conservatives, a not so small faction, have special vitriol for illegal immigrants that flies in the face of their actual contributions and impact.

Regardless of who you're referring to, why does being against illegal immigration make you a knuckle dragger. Are you saying that the entire first world is a bunch of knuckle draggers? Because I'm pretty sure every first world country has a naturalization process and doesn't just let people enter as they please and then call them Germans or Swedes.

Ok, what's more American than that? Voting in U.S. elections? Clothing yourself in the flag? Feel free to contribute your explanation.

Again, those are qualities of good people. That doesn't make them Americans. That makes them people that we should want to have here, but they still need to go through the naturalization process in order to BECOME Americans.

If you want to be a nation of laws, then follow through. If you don't want to be a nation of laws, well there's always Somalia, as the left always loves to tell the right.

One requirement is that you have to have lived in the U.S. a while Bober, come on!

That was a bit of hyperbole, obviosly, but touche.

Yes that's not fair, and neither is life...but how does life not being fair mean we should actively be fine with making it less fair? Doesn't really pass the smell test, does it? Btw, we shouldn't let more people in than is possible to afford/assimilate, and we should also secure the border.

There I agree with you. We should be able to limit our immigration counts. But after those counts are met, what you're propose next is in direct opposition to your statement that we should only let in what's possible to assimilate.

None of that precludes us treating illegal immigrants and especially their children as anything but hard working Americans who happen to have come from another country. They made the mistake of coming illegally, from the perspective of good judgment, but this does not make them less American. To be clear, I'm talking about permanent, working, contributing residents, a vast majority of whom have children.

Treating everyone who comes here as an American, even if they do so illegally, is basically having no ability limit who comes here. I'll be clear that I don't think they should be abused, but they should not have the same benefits as citizens. If they do, then there is no reason to become a citizen, and we then have no control over our borders.

Immigrants are those who came from another country. Illegal immigrants are those who choose to ignore the rule of law. Breaking the law isn't a good way to show how "American" you are and convince people that you want what's best for this country.

If you want to change the rule of law, go for it. Push for an increase in immigration limits, make the process shorter and more affordable. I'd consider those good changes, why make it difficult for good people to come here?

But until then, illegal immigrants are breaking the law and should NOT be rewarded for such. You certainly don't approve of right wingers flouting the law, why should illegal immigrants get a pass? I mean, that cattle rancher was a hard working American, so what if he was breaking the law? He was entrepreneurial, religious, hard working, family oriented, and then the big bad government came along and told him his cattle couldn't graze on their land. How dare they treat him badly!?!

Unless you're going to fight for the right of some right wing rancher to ignore the law, why treat illegal immigrants any differently?