GOP Debate #1

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Nov 30, 2006
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My comments about the root cause of our trading deficit reflect mainstream economic wisdom and are not in any way at odds with stagnant real median household wages.

Also, why the fuck would you chart real (i.e. inflation adjusted) incomes against nominal (i.e. not inflation adjusted) debt levels? Why we are charting it against securitized debt and not total debt? Why does it matter if the debt is securitized or not? Why would you begin a chart at $47,100 and end it at $58,388?

Think there might be an agenda there?
I posted credible information that conflicts with your statement that consumers are richer. FRED has an agenda here? :rolleyes: You, sir, are a piece of work.

Apparently there were too many flashy objects with the previous graph I posted that distracted you from my point. Fact of the matter is that consumers are NOT richer.

fredgraph.png
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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My comments about the root cause of our trading deficit reflect mainstream economic wisdom and are not in any way at odds with stagnant real median household wages.

Also, why the fuck would you chart real (i.e. inflation adjusted) incomes against nominal (i.e. not inflation adjusted) debt levels? Why we are charting it against securitized debt and not total debt? Why does it matter if the debt is securitized or not? Why would you begin a chart at $47,100 and end it at $58,388?

Think there might be an agenda there?

There are actually even more problems with his chart than that. He looked at total debt, which naturally increases with population increases, and compared it to a median income, which does not.

Then, he doesn't account for employment:

fredgraph.png


Millions of additional people are employed. Even if they were making the same or lower wages than before, median income is calculated for people who are employed. When you add millions of additional workers, even if they are making the same or lower wages, you end up with tons more consumer demand.

Thank you, stimulus!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I posted credible information that conflicts with your statement that consumers are richer. FRED has an agenda here? :rolleyes: You, sir, are a piece of work.

FRED doesn't have an agenda, but the way you pulled information up was extremely misleading. It might not have been on purpose, but it was a terrible chart nonetheless. (for reasons explained in both his and my posts) It in no way contradicted him.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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FRED doesn't have an agenda, but the way you pulled information up was extremely misleading. It might not have been on purpose, but it was a terrible chart nonetheless. (for reasons explained in both his and my posts) It in no way contradicted him.
Do you believe his premise that consumers are richer now? If so, please support.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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I posted credible information that conflicts with your statement that consumers are richer. FRED has an agenda here? :rolleyes: You, sir, are a piece of work.

Apparently there were too many flashy objects with the previous graph I posted that distracted you from my point. Fact of the matter is that we are NOT richer.

fredgraph.png

The chart was created with FRED data using FRED tools, but it is not a FRED chart. Look where the image is hosted. www.hwminc.com

It's a terribly misleading chart, but I think your point was incomes have been stagnant, which is true, but also not at all at odds with my point.

Again, that stimulous policy has generated demand and thus widened the trade gap is broadly accepted. Please show me any respected economist that questions that view.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Already did, didn't you see my other post? Unless you're trying to argue that an employed person isn't richer than an unemployed person, that is.
The question is whether or not consumers in this country are richer or not....NOT about an employed person being richer than an unemployed person. I don't understand why you're spinning this discussion unless, by chance, you're having difficulty admitting you're wrong.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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The question is whether or not consumers in this country are richer or not....NOT if an employed person is richer than an unemployed person. I don't understand why you're spinning this discussion unless, by chance, you're having difficulty admitting you're wrong.

You are mistaking 'showing how you're obviously wrong' for 'spinning'.

1. Everyone in the US is a consumer regardless of whether they are employed or not, correct?

2. An employed person is much richer (generally) than an unemployed person, correct?

3. If median wages have stayed the same or declined but the sum total of wages has increased due to the greater number of total employed people, consumers are overall richer, correct?

Your method of only using median wages would mean that if there were 5 employed people in the room making $100,000 and 5 unemployed people making $0, if the 5 unemployed people got jobs making $50k the people in that room would have just become poorer because the median wage declined. Nope, nope, nope.

Now, assuming you aren't having difficulty admitting you're wrong, feel free to make that admission at your leisure. (you might also question why no economist shares your view that there is less purchasing power out there now than before the stimulus)
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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You are mistaking 'showing how you're obviously wrong' for 'spinning'.

He tried to score some cheap points against the Obama administration but confused 'worker' with 'consumer'. Now he has clearly been shown his mistake, but refuses to acknowledge it, and digs his heels in.

Could there be a more perfect metaphor for the post-Reagan American Right?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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3. If median wages have stayed the same or declined but the sum total of wages has increased due to the greater number of total employed people, consumers are overall richer, correct?

So he entered a subject (trade deficit) where population (total employed) serves as a sum of consumer value. You have done well in presenting your point.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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You are mistaking 'showing how you're obviously wrong' for 'spinning'.

1. Everyone in the US is a consumer regardless of whether they are employed or not, correct?

2. An employed person is much richer (generally) than an unemployed person, correct?

3. If median wages have stayed the same or declined but the sum total of wages has increased due to the greater number of total employed people, consumers are overall richer, correct?

Your method of only using median wages would mean that if there were 5 employed people in the room making $100,000 and 5 unemployed people making $0, if the 5 unemployed people got jobs making $50k the people in that room would have just become poorer because the median wage declined. Nope, nope, nope.

Now, assuming you aren't having difficulty admitting you're wrong, feel free to make that admission at your leisure. (you might also question why no economist shares your view that there is less purchasing power out there now than before the stimulus)
Spin, spin, spin....you getting dizzy yet? FRED has a wonderful metric to measure household wealth which I previously posted. They also have another metric for disposable income which fails to support your assertion as well.

Screenshot-from-2015-07-15-131120.png


And if you wish to look at this from a purchasing power perspective...FRED has more inconvenient facts for you to rationalize. Come on eskimospy....you're smarter than this.

CPI3.png
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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Wow, you are really embarassing yourself. None of your charts say what you think they say. I suggest you approach this whole subject with a little more curiousity and humility or just leave the theard entirely. I wouldn't bet on it though.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Spin, spin, spin....you getting dizzy yet? FRED has a wonderful metric to measure household wealth which I previously posted. They also have another metric for disposable income which fails to support your assertion as well.

You're avoiding answering my questions because you have no answer. Just admit you screwed up and move on.

As for your new images and metrics, I don't think you understand what you're looking at. That is showing GDP and disposable income growth RATES.

Screenshot-from-2015-07-15-131120.png


Growth rates over time turns into this, showing richer consumers yet again:

fredgraph.png


and this:

fredgraph.png


And if you wish to look at this from a purchasing power perspective...FRED has more inconvenient facts for you to rationalize. Come on eskimospy....you're smarter than this.

ppdollar1914.png

Your final picture about inflation is pointless, as all the other metrics are adjusted for inflation. Speaking of your graph though, median income in 1914 was something around $15,000-$20,000 in today's dollars. How's that for purchasing power? Here's a hint, if you're going to use FRED data, use it yourself. Don't depend on other people to package it for you because you'll fall for their agenda.

Seriously, stop digging. If you aren't too proud to admit you're wrong, now is the time to do it.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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Well, that's the quickest way I've heard to drive American companies out-of-business.

I take it you've never heard of importing products?

Or, do you also want to stop product imports from non-American companies?

Fern

Yea we stopped doing it in that 70s and we are now basking in the results of that decision. I have never heard of a country that survived being a strictly service economy. Absolute dependence on your rivals for survival is hardly a recipe for success.

The jobs were NOT moved for survival, they were moved for short term profits. Now Asian companies are rising rapidly using the technology and manufacturing expertise given to them by American companies. It is only a matter of time before they start erasing all of those American companies who sold out America. All of the profits will be taken out of the pockets of the American monied elite and placed in the pockets of the Asian monied elite. Well at least that is my fear. Hopefully I am wrong.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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I think the lesson to be learned here is don't accuse other people of having difficulty admitting they are wrong and then steadfastly refuse to admit you're wrong after being shown so repeatedly.
I don't have a lot of time right now to respond, but I would appreciate it if you provide a metric from a legitimate source that shows that most consumers are RICHER to any significant degree. Your "voodoo math" was very amusing; however, I'd like to see something a little more credible if you don't mind.
 
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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
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Yea we stopped doing it in that 70s and we are now basking in the results of that decision. I have never heard of a country that survived being a strictly service economy. Absolute dependence on your rivals for survival is hardly a recipe for success.

The jobs were NOT moved for survival, they were moved for short term profits. Now Asian companies are rising rapidly using the technology and manufacturing expertise given to them by American companies. It is only a matter of time before they start erasing all of those American companies who sold out America. All of the profits will be taken out of the pockets of the American monied elite and placed in the pockets of the Asian monied elite. Well at least that is my fear. Hopefully I am wrong.

The problem with that narrative is that China's economic growth has slowed down recently in the face of the American economic expansion.

Since we like posting things from the Fed:

http://www.frbsf.org/economic-resea...ugust/china-economic-growth-miracle-slowdown/
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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I'm not going to argue any further, I understand your point of view, but I respectfully disagree.

Now the "Round em up and ship em home!" and "Build a wall with mines and autocannons!" people are insane, those are both horrible ideas not even worthy of discussion to me. But I'd have no problem with greatly increasing the penalties for companies knowingly hiring illegal immigrants, enforcing those laws, and letting the problem sort itself while we modernize our immigration policies. But that's the closest I can come to a compromise.

Indeed. Doesn't look like we disagree too much on a lot of this save the American bit.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
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If we're so beggard why are we sitting on $18 trillion GDP? Yeah, that's after (X-M). We grossed $2.3 trillion in imports last year, $466 billion from China. Less than 3% of GDP.

Chinese currency manipulation is a canard. It makes no sense to manipulate currency to affect the balance of trade, you manipulate your currency to stimulate or retard economic growth, and control inflation.

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/chinese-currency-manipulation-by-jeffrey-frankel-2015-02

I don't know if you noticed, but we engaged in some pretty heavy duty "currency manipulation" ourselves since 2008-2009 setting our interest rates at zero and three rounds of quantitative easing.

Face what you want shithead. The problem in this country is not the amount of economic activity or wealth, it's the way it's distributed.

Don't even fucking talk about the higher education situation in this country after all the federal and state cuts to education budgets.

First you say we aren't beggared, then you go to point out that the distribution is wrong (which I agree) but it is wrong because we have beggared specific classes to the benefit of others.

The byproduct of generating economic growth is balance of trade when the person you are trading against has an appreciated currency relative to yours and you do not let yours naturally float. This is the same problem Germany has with the rest of the Euro. A German DM should have a much higher rate than a Greek Drachma, because the current account deficits. However, since they have one currency, and Target2 doesn't result in currency adjustments, you get accumulation of reserves, through Target2, that doesn't result in relative appreciation, resulting in cheaper German goods being sent to a debtor nation without any adjustment for currency.

The problem with Frankel's analysis is that it relies almost solely upon the notion that a point in time (2014) matters. It doesn't. Especially when that point of time has other factors *and* the peg is in place within a narrow band. That narrow band has obviously resulted in lower growth, so what did China do? Depreciated to stimulate growth. Since they are export dependent that growth comes on the backs of the US, mainly because their goods become cheaper, while our goods exported to China become more expensive. Thus they accumulate more reserves.

Furthermore, he ignores that the automatic balancing of FCR, excluding temporal actions, would now lock China into a deflationary spiral that they couldn't get out of. They have fucked the entire globe, and themselves, and the US. They have allowed too much to accumulate, too quickly, and now it is at the peril of everybody. If they are lucky they'll get a Japan style malaise, but that's only after they'll try to depreciate the shit out of their currency, again, to generate economic gains through US consumers (and workers).

But our currency manipulation is wholly different. 1) Chinas (mostly) USD peg results in almost no differential for our system. Notice other countries that have become larger exporters to the US? Vietnam, pretty much pegged, among others. And 2) US is far less export driven. Please show where the US is a net energy exporter. Shale longevity is still unproven given the rapid decline of the wells.

You're a Johnny Come Lately to the student loan problem. I've been talking about state budgets for a very long time. If I didn't think you'd dox me I'd show you some actual work I've done on it, professionally. Here is one from 2014

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36578397&postcount=204

I also started discussing tuition costs in 2009.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
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And productivity is a measure of how hard people work?

Good thing you got your CFA in the turnstyle days. Now you actually need to know something.

Lol - the "turnstyle days". Nice, the pass rates for my cohorts were not very high. I took 1 in 04, 2 in 05 and 3 in 07 (took year off for illness in my family). Let me ask you, do you have your charter? Did you pass in one shot on all 3?