Good op-ed from David Brooks, "Dems, Please Don’t Drive Me Away"

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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,359
4,640
136
So, what you are basically saying is Trump is so terrible that you could never vote for him, and if we could only find the perfect candidate that espouses every one of your racist misogynistic xenophobic attitudes you would vote for him, but only if they ran the perfect campaign, and only if they had no problematic history. If this perfect canidiate came up, you just might vote for him. But probably they would wear a tan suit and force you to vote for Trump anyway.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,438
10,730
136
Re: Buttigieg...
I'm not worried because Dems won't do it...
As if you or Glenn actually support Buttigieg's policy positions.

Do you favor the Mayor, if not, why not? If it's simply cause he's not your first pick I'd understand that, but it would be useful to the entire last page of discussion if you could explain the topic and not continue on with a fixation towards other posters.

For example, my first impression of Buttigieg is a positive one. He seems well spoken if not a little young. Not too young for the office, just maybe a bit young to command the stage and win the public. But he is easily in my top 3 and I'd love to see him engage in the later debates to see how he compares to the other front runners.
 
Last edited:

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
126
I don't know anyone that is actually "pro abortion."

what a weird tucking thing to claim to be.

Pro abortion rights I should say.

But hell I guess I do venture into a Mathusian line of thought where yes abortion could be seen as a positive as a means of population control. It’s brutal but the environmental degradation humanity’s cancerous expansion on this planet causes we should be in favor of things that slow it.

So while I realize you’re simply trying to come up with a quip to get me and grammar is a last resort I think unknowingly to you there may have been some truth behind it. ;)
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,617
33,336
136
So, what you are basically saying is Trump is so terrible that you could never vote for him, and if we could only find the perfect candidate that espouses every one of your racist misogynistic xenophobic attitudes you would vote for him, but only if they ran the perfect campaign, and only if they had no problematic history. If this perfect canidiate came up, you just might vote for him. But probably they would wear a tan suit and force you to vote for Trump anyway.
Sure I'd vote for him. He'd just have to say he is a Republican first.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Re: Buttigieg...



Do you favor the Mayor, if not, why not? If it's simply cause he's not your first pick I'd understand that, but it would be useful to the entire last page of discussion if you could explain the topic and not continue on with a fixation towards other posters.

For example, my first impression of Buttigieg is a positive one. He seems well spoken if not a little young. Not too young for the office, just maybe a bit young to command the stage and win the public. But he is easily in my top 3 and I'd love to see him engage in the later debates to see how he compares to the other front runners.

America being what it is, I think it would be a suicide mission for Dems to run an openly gay candidate for President. Which is why UC, Glenn, Greenman & others like them are telling us what a great idea it would be.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
As if you or Glenn actually support Buttigieg's policy positions. From Wikipedia-

I need to compromise on the positions a candidate holds yet will still be acceptable to vote for all the time. If you want to go down that particular list:

1. Universal healthcare: Fine sentiment that completely depends on how it's implemented. Mayor Pete is a smart guy and I think he realizes there's some pretty severe "pre-existing conditions" with the U.S. healthcare system that need to be addressed to change the system (to "universal" or anything else) and hopefully he will account for those. For example, most people get their healthcare via an tax subsidized employer benefit, if you go "universal healthcare" are you going to kill employer plans? There's pros and cons to either way. In short, I don't object to "universal healthcare" but do object to people like you not caring if you make things much worse for me because you want to give junior high dropout "free" healthcare when he says "hey y'all watch this" and does something stupid. The first rule of universal healthcare should be "don't make things much worse for people with decent healthcare now because you want to help people with less decent (or no) healthcare now."
2. Reducing income inequality: Again, a noble idea that completely depends on implementation. Want to pass laws that help everyone and will reduce income inequality at the same time, like more generous family leave (thus reducing the time mothers typically lose in their careers and thus earning power)? Go for it. Want to outlaw employers from asking about salary history since what you make now has nothing to do with what they should pay you tomorrow if hired? Sure. Want to simply exercise your blood lust hatred against the rich for "keeping you poor" because you bought their products and go full Zimbabwe white farmer land confiscation on them? No.
3. Pro-environmental policies: Fine, so long as you deal with the realities of physics and infrastructure while you're at it. Most of what the left considers "pro environmental policies" are just gripes about how others live instead of real fixes. The best way to help the environment will come with time (new technologies) and solutions the left won't like such as nuclear (because you have a big Luddite section that fears stuff like that and GMOs) or actual structural changes like mandating lots more telework where possible (and reducing fuel use for commuting in turn).
4. Cooperation between Dem party and organized labor: Fine with this. Doesn't mean I think that states with "right to work" laws are wrong or the practice should be prohibited.
5. Universal background checks for firearms: I've already said, Dems should pivot towards making checks free, fast, and able to be done by private individuals instead of only through FFLs. A lot of the objections to universal background checks aren't the checks themselves, it's that you've made them a pain in the ass to do. Most firearms supporters are fine with helping reduce gun violence and although many are skeptical of checks they would go along except maybe a loony fringe. The same kind that think we have no legal obligation to pay income taxes.
6. Equality Act - yes please! As a libertarian anytime civil rights are expanded it's a time for celebration.
8. Preserving DACA: DACA is fine although we do need to consider what to do with the other family. More broadly, the bigger "problem" with DACA is twofold. First, our immigraiton policy sucks. It should be focused on making LEGAL immigration easier (e.g. quotas, processes, etc) while still working hard against ILLEGAL immigration. Second and perhaps more importantly, the use (I'd say misuse) of Executive Orders to effectively create law or circumvent the will of Congress. That needs to be fixed either way no matter what happens with the DACA kids.
7. Gerrymandering, Overturn Citizens United, Electoral College: This would require a constitutional amendment. Probably not going to happen. My opinion and yours is irrelevant since a large enough supermajority of the country would never be raised to pass them. If you somehow could, I'd add a few more to the list like overturning Kelo v. City of New London (use of eminent domain) and prohibiting any future spying on American citizens.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
16,601
11,410
136
America being what it is, I think it would be a suicide mission for Dems to run an openly gay candidate for President. Which is why UC, Glenn, Greenman & others like them are telling us what a great idea it would be.

I kinda disagree on that because of what a crazy idea it was to run a black guy with a muslim name for President.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,824
16,095
136
I kinda disagree on that because of what a crazy idea it was to run a black guy with a muslim name for President.
I dont think you should undersell what that black man did to the segment that is now Trumps core base... I think its a hard choice between doing whats honestly right and playing the long meta game... Like what Pelosi is doing now with impeachment.. her acts may be sound from a strategic standpoint but it sure as hell is not the right thing to do right now. You want to win this battle to loose the war or vice versa.
Hard calls.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
I kinda disagree on that because of what a crazy idea it was to run a black guy with a muslim name for President.

2008 was unique. Circumstances & personalities being what they were at the time, McCain never had a chance. Obama's message & charm transcended the usual boundaries.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,250
55,801
136
I for one am very surprised that right wing opinion writers think the best way for Democrats to win is to move to the right.

It would be interesting if we could find a single situation, ever, where David Brooks thought the right strategy for Democrats was to move to the left.
 
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DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
America being what it is, I think it would be a suicide mission for Dems to run an openly gay candidate for President. Which is why UC, Glenn, Greenman & others like them are telling us what a great idea it would be.

If it was a standard election and the Republicans have a functional candidate, I would say you are right. It would be suicide to run someone that is openly gay, even if he is very qualified to run. It would also be harder to run a female candidate as well. However, in this next election, you have Trump, someone who even moderate conservatives realize is a walking shitstorm.

You won't be converting any of the Trump base but you don't need to, it's a waste of time and energy to even deal with them. They are pretty much a cult. What is needed now is to energy the Democrats and unify them. I still believe that Trump didn't win the last election, it's the democrats who lost it. Unless I am mistaken, Trump did not win more votes than the previous Republicans did, just that the Democrats were not excited about voting for Hillary.

For this election, I believe the chances of being able to vote in a gay or female candidate is much higher than people think. With a caveat of course. The message after the Democratic candidate is picked, is not how shitty Trump is, but what our new presidential candidate will do for our people. Focus on policy, policy, policy, educate the masses. Drone into their heads the facts and numbers of democratic plan vs Trump plan. Do not waste a soundbite on how shit tier Trump is. Don't make the same mistake of the previous election.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
I need to compromise on the positions a candidate holds yet will still be acceptable to vote for all the time. If you want to go down that particular list:

1. Universal healthcare: Fine sentiment that completely depends on how it's implemented. Mayor Pete is a smart guy and I think he realizes there's some pretty severe "pre-existing conditions" with the U.S. healthcare system that need to be addressed to change the system (to "universal" or anything else) and hopefully he will account for those. For example, most people get their healthcare via an tax subsidized employer benefit, if you go "universal healthcare" are you going to kill employer plans? There's pros and cons to either way. In short, I don't object to "universal healthcare" but do object to people like you not caring if you make things much worse for me because you want to give junior high dropout "free" healthcare when he says "hey y'all watch this" and does something stupid. The first rule of universal healthcare should be "don't make things much worse for people with decent healthcare now because you want to help people with less decent (or no) healthcare now."
2. Reducing income inequality: Again, a noble idea that completely depends on implementation. Want to pass laws that help everyone and will reduce income inequality at the same time, like more generous family leave (thus reducing the time mothers typically lose in their careers and thus earning power)? Go for it. Want to outlaw employers from asking about salary history since what you make now has nothing to do with what they should pay you tomorrow if hired? Sure. Want to simply exercise your blood lust hatred against the rich for "keeping you poor" because you bought their products and go full Zimbabwe white farmer land confiscation on them? No.
3. Pro-environmental policies: Fine, so long as you deal with the realities of physics and infrastructure while you're at it. Most of what the left considers "pro environmental policies" are just gripes about how others live instead of real fixes. The best way to help the environment will come with time (new technologies) and solutions the left won't like such as nuclear (because you have a big Luddite section that fears stuff like that and GMOs) or actual structural changes like mandating lots more telework where possible (and reducing fuel use for commuting in turn).
4. Cooperation between Dem party and organized labor: Fine with this. Doesn't mean I think that states with "right to work" laws are wrong or the practice should be prohibited.
5. Universal background checks for firearms: I've already said, Dems should pivot towards making checks free, fast, and able to be done by private individuals instead of only through FFLs. A lot of the objections to universal background checks aren't the checks themselves, it's that you've made them a pain in the ass to do. Most firearms supporters are fine with helping reduce gun violence and although many are skeptical of checks they would go along except maybe a loony fringe. The same kind that think we have no legal obligation to pay income taxes.
6. Equality Act - yes please! As a libertarian anytime civil rights are expanded it's a time for celebration.
8. Preserving DACA: DACA is fine although we do need to consider what to do with the other family. More broadly, the bigger "problem" with DACA is twofold. First, our immigraiton policy sucks. It should be focused on making LEGAL immigration easier (e.g. quotas, processes, etc) while still working hard against ILLEGAL immigration. Second and perhaps more importantly, the use (I'd say misuse) of Executive Orders to effectively create law or circumvent the will of Congress. That needs to be fixed either way no matter what happens with the DACA kids.
7. Gerrymandering, Overturn Citizens United, Electoral College: This would require a constitutional amendment. Probably not going to happen. My opinion and yours is irrelevant since a large enough supermajority of the country would never be raised to pass them. If you somehow could, I'd add a few more to the list like overturning Kelo v. City of New London (use of eminent domain) and prohibiting any future spying on American citizens.

Thanks for your long winded obfuscations & denials. You prove my point entirely. If you were honestly considering voting Democratic you'd favor a much more centrist Dem like Hickenlooper or some others. Even Biden, come to think of it.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,359
4,640
136
I for one am very surprised that right wing opinion writers think the best way for Democrats to win is to move to the right.

It would be interesting if we could find a single situation, ever, where David Brooks thought the right strategy for Democrats was to move to the left.

The real point of this is to tell us how they hate Trump and would never vote for him normally, but when they do it again next year it will be the Democrats fault, again.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Thanks for your long winded obfuscations & denials. You prove my point entirely. If you were honestly considering voting Democratic you'd favor a much more centrist Dem like Hickenlooper or some others. Even Biden, come to think of it.

So I should support a different guy who feels the exact same on the issues you cited in that post? Hickenlooper like Mayor Pete supports universal healthcare, is pro-environment, supports universal background checks, is pro-LGBTQ so I presume would support the Equality Act, etc.

Him being a "centrist" is you being stupid about thinking anyone who doesn't call for outright guillotining of the rich isn't a true Democrat.

https://www.ontheissues.org/John_Hickenlooper.htm

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politi...elieve-where-the-candidate-stands-on-7-issues
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
22,478
6,563
136
America being what it is, I think it would be a suicide mission for Dems to run an openly gay candidate for President. Which is why UC, Glenn, Greenman & others like them are telling us what a great idea it would be.
Absurd. Do you think the fifty people that post here are going to change the election results?
For the record, no one said it would be a great idea, we all said that we find the fellow to be well spoken and personable, and further claimed that being gay didn't strike us as being a huge issue. Those are reasonable opinions, to which you responded with claims of subterfuge. Get over it, we aren't out to get you.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Absurd. Do you think the fifty people that post here are going to change the election results?
For the record, no one said it would be a great idea, we all said that we find the fellow to be well spoken and personable, and further claimed that being gay didn't strike us as being a huge issue. Those are reasonable opinions, to which you responded with claims of subterfuge. Get over it, we aren't out to get you.

So far the reluctance to run "the gay guy" has been limited to @Jhhnn out of all the posters here of any political bent, so I think that's more a function of him looking for an excuse to vote his heart (against gays). He just wants what he thinks is plausible deniability by blaming a handful of conservative posters like UC for that decision. "You guys MADE me vote against him! I pre-exemptively voted against him first so you wouldn't be able to vote against him later!"

It's the same principle as the 2016 election - the huge amounts of people saying the Dems chose a terrible candidate and ranking her 2nd most unpopular ever were because we *really* knew what a great candidate she was and how we knew she'd win in a landslide. They're on to our reverse psychology operations.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Absurd. Do you think the fifty people that post here are going to change the election results?
For the record, no one said it would be a great idea, we all said that we find the fellow to be well spoken and personable, and further claimed that being gay didn't strike us as being a huge issue. Those are reasonable opinions, to which you responded with claims of subterfuge. Get over it, we aren't out to get you.

Yeh, Dems should def run the guy you wouldn't vote for if we held a gun to your head. Because reasons.

Your bullshit is the same bullshit being spread everywhere by right wingers trying to appear to be reasonable.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
The real point of this is to tell us how they hate Trump and would never vote for him normally, but when they do it again next year it will be the Democrats fault, again.

See Glenn's post, below.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
The real point of this is to tell us how they hate Trump and would never vote for him normally, but when they do it again next year it will be the Democrats fault, again.

See Glenn's post #119.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
So far the reluctance to run "the gay guy" has been limited to @Jhhnn out of all the posters here of any political bent, so I think that's more a function of him looking for an excuse to vote his heart (against gays). He just wants what he thinks is plausible deniability by blaming a handful of conservative posters like UC for that decision. "You guys MADE me vote against him! I pre-exemptively voted against him first so you wouldn't be able to vote against him later!"

It's the same principle as the 2016 election - the huge amounts of people saying the Dems chose a terrible candidate and ranking her 2nd most unpopular ever were because we *really* knew what a great candidate she was and how we knew she'd win in a landslide. They're on to our reverse psychology operations.
If Buttigieg is the Dem nominee, I'll vote for him. You obviously won't. You may have some difficulty choosing between Trump & some Libertopian Loser, however.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
"How will Trump reach out to Dem voters in his pursuit of re-election" is an Op-Ed that will never be written.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
"How will Trump reach out to Dem voters in his pursuit of re-election" is an Op-Ed that will never be written.

Well, he did grab a whole bunch of people right by the pussy in 2016. They loved the attention. His studliness was irresistible.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
"How will Trump reach out to Dem voters in his pursuit of re-election" is an Op-Ed that will never be written.

Do you really want his reach out?

images
 
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