Good 5970 vs. 480 reviews? Who's the peoples' champ

[Keysplayr]

A very good guess. Yes, I may have some sort of degree in philosophy.

So are you basically saying that a large percentage of all threads in this forum should not exist because the definition of value is unique to each individual? That asking a question like "What do you guys think about this card?" is a total waste of time and a never ending debate over a value one person feels while the other does not? You'd be right I guess. But this is a technical forum, not so much a philosophical forum. People feel very strongly about the values they have placed in certain products, and look for it to be contagious to others and are gratified when that does happen. It shows that person that they were right all along.
IMHO, philosophical discussions are even more endless than technical discussions, so you'd just be replacing a hopelessness with an even greater void of hopelessness.

That's just me and my values.

 

[yh125d]

Admission of defeat accepted. Thanks for playing.

Oh yeah bro, you won this round. What were we playing again? Who can make up a strawman argument and see who disagrees?

:hmm:



So nice you were able to extract all this from ben saying a few companies' top products are bad values though

 

[tincart]

So are you basically saying that a large percentage of all threads in this forum should not exist because the definition of value is unique to each individual?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I was trying to clarify certain concepts people were using. I raised some questions about what the "value" of a certain product is and HOW that value comes about in order to get some clarification from others.

What I discovered was that some people were unclear as to what the terms they were using actually meant and were unwilling to think about those terms any further.

The only positive statement I made was that an individual's value judgments regarding consumer products are not universal and there are very clear reasons for why that is. Anything you wish to take from that basic, rather uncontroversial statement, is entirely your business.

IMHO, philosophical discussions are even more endless than technical discussions, so you'd just be replacing a hopelessness with an even greater void of hopelessness.

That's just me and my values.

Well, that's good. In philosophy we don't generally take such opinions seriously.

I wonder, however, exactly how me being in philosophy has anything to do with the content of my posts. I'm fairly sure I didn't mention any philosophers, nor even any distinctly philosophical concepts. All I have done is attempt to clarify two key terms that were used - "fair" and "value" - using language and ideas that are common to pretty much everyone.

 

[ronnn]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I was trying to clarify certain concepts people were using. I raised some questions about what the "value" of a certain product is and HOW that value comes about in order to get some clarification from others.

Defining value should be left to the pr guys. Nvidia has had a huge focus to make power use, heat etc not part of the discussed value, while AMD of course would like that to be of prime importance. Which of course muddies the waters for the rest of us and a person really needs to know their own priorities.

I like quiet, cheap with decent gaming, another person may value having the fastest no matter the cost or even want fast for video editing. Mind you not a lot of video editing is discussed here. And some may value 3 monitors - takes all kinds.

 

[shangshang]

I wonder, however, exactly how me being in philosophy has anything to do with the content of my posts.

lol Keys,
you have to admit that Tincart's statement above sound awfully familiar to your reply to the ATI fanboys! And Keys you said this is a tech forum. And I would futher say that not only a tech forum, but somewhat of an enthusiat forum too. 5970 vs 480 comparison should belong here.

I'm willing to bet the ATI fans would love to see this comparison. And the NV fans would say it's not fair.

It's ok guys, it's a little bit of a human nature to hide our weaknesses. People come with many synonymous words and many classifications for the purposes of hiding weaknesses and displaying strongness. Marketing folks are expert at this game.

only a matter of time before this comparison will be done. Like I said, reviewers don't want show the 480 as a "not so good value" card just yet, unless they wanna be in NV doghouse for next generation release. lol

 

[Nemesis 1]

In September, when the 5870 launched, you felt a bit different about comparing a dual GPU card to a single one. In this case, GTX295 vs. HD5870.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=28659469&postcount=499

So according to you, we should be comparing 5970 to SLI'd GTX480s ?

Straighten us out here.

Keep in mind that I'm not disputing that AMD has the performance crown with the 5970 as far as a single card goes. Just as I didn't dispute the 5870 had the single GPU performance crown when it launched, or that Nvidia held the single card crown when the 5870 launched. Single GPU which you describe as not having all "the pitfalls of a multi-GPU solution" goes to the 480 at this point in time.

Yes keys I agree with ya here on the single card dual gpu thing . I have always said that never waivering on that point. Now I could go and dig up old post were peoples have changed what they say. Depending on their agenda . You know this is true correct.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Oh yeah bro, you won this round. What were we playing again? Who can make up a strawman argument and see who disagrees?

:hmm:



So nice you were able to extract all this from ben saying a few companies' top products are bad values though

You have 4,000 + You know dam well this is a debating game point counter point . For most of us its passing time and defending what ever brand you prefer , Its human nature , denial is futle. The winner gets a cookie you know this . It is true that for some its more than a game as they are paid ( given free hardware to do so). Keys has it in his sig . So we know it which is fine . Its the stealth marketers that hurt forums because when they win its more than a cookie and the losers many times end up with a ban.

 

[BenSkywalker]

The way I see you talking about value involves relating performance to cost, correct?

Not at all, that would be ignorant and narrow minded. It seems that you have issues comprehending the rather trivial nature of making certain that cross platform considerations were given their due course to eliminate any potential critique of the logic behind my statement.

(B) In a current product line
(C) Relative to the specific needs of the user

As is clearly understood by the even the most rudimentary following of the technology industry, all of the top line products have offerings at a lesser price point with identical feature sets within the same product line. (B) is entirely negated. (C) Was also clearly handled in the initial post by bringing in the comparison of cross fire 5850s which given the feature parity of a given GPU in either configuration then addressed users whose targets required a dual GPU solution. All three of the 'points' that you raise in the context of my post were rather clearly dealt with, only those lacking basic comprehension could possibly fail to see them clearly for precisely what they were.

A 5850 offers me NO value at all if I am not in the market for a video card or if it lacks the feature or level of performance I am looking for. If I am in the market for the highest-performing product out there, then once again, there is NO value in a 5850, it does not have what I am looking for.

The highest performing product available in terms of a GPU solution would be phase change modified tri SLI GTX 480s- which nVidia doesn't sell. Your argument fails on that aspect as well as what you are talking about is something none of the companies offer that I listed; which using your criteria my statement still holds as entirely accurate no matter what angle you wish to try and use.

 

[tincart]

Trying to write like I do, how cute. Nice to have imitators. On to your points, with the rhetoric removed.

As is clearly understood by the even the most rudimentary following of the technology industry, all of the top line products have offerings at a lesser price point with identical feature sets within the same product line. (B) is entirely negated.

Premises do not entail conclusion here. (B) is a necessary limiting factor to narrow the field of objects we are talking about. If everyone already knows that we should only be talking about the most recent products (e.g. those identified by B) then the correct conclusion is that my statement is a truism, not that it is negated. In "basic logic" you don't refute a conclusion by offering arguments for it .

B was offered precisely because it would be obvious to everyone.

(C) Was also clearly handled in the initial post by bringing in the comparison of cross fire 5850s which given the feature parity of a given GPU in either configuration then addressed users whose targets required a dual GPU solution. All three of the 'points' that you raise in the context of my post were rather clearly dealt with, only those lacking basic comprehension could possibly fail to see them clearly for precisely what they were.

I already addressed a point like this above and it's probably because you think I'm trying to make the same kind of claim you are. I'm not. Here's why pointing out an exception fails:

Your universal claim: All top end products are poor value
My claim: That only makes sense as a non-universal claim for certain components and certain people
You mistaking my claim for another universal claim: Oh yeah? Well here's an exception!

You can point out all the exceptions you like, it does nothing to my point. In order to prove me wrong, you need more than an exception, you need to establish the exception as the rule.

Again, your claim is that (1) "In all cases, the highest end product is a poor value" and my claim (2) "In some cases, the highest end product is a poor value for some people" which is logically equivalent to "In some cases, the highest end product is a good value for some people." Case (1) will topple under one exception, case (2) will not.

Conclusion: Your 5850 CF example doesn't do the work you think it does. In basic logic a counter-example only works against a universal claim, not an existential one.

The highest performing product available in terms of a GPU solution would be phase change modified tri SLI GTX 480s- which nVidia doesn't sell. Your argument fails on that aspect as well as what you are talking about is something none of the companies offer that I listed; which using your criteria my statement still holds as entirely accurate no matter what angle you wish to try and use.

It's annoying to see contradictions within such short arguments. It seems I mentioned a limiting clause that would eliminate products that aren't for sale... maybe "(B) In a current product line" entails identifying only products that are available on the market. Strange that you would argue, poorly, against it and then bring up a case where it's use is obvious.

 

[Keysplayr]

Trying to write like I do, how cute. Nice to have imitators. On to your points, with the rhetoric removed.

At least you don't have an ego problem of any kind. How refreshing!!
When you're all finished looking at others down the slope of your nose, feel free to get back to the thread topic. Thanks.

/back down to earth.

 

[Elfear]

At least you don't have an ego problem of any kind. How refreshing!!
When you're all finished looking at others down the slope of your nose, feel free to get back to the thread topic. Thanks.

/back down to earth.

Lol. Ya, not at all.


Back OT - I think a comparison of the 5870, GTX 480, and 5970 would be very useful for consumers. They all occupy different price brackets so letting consumers see how much performance they get for the extra money spent would be very beneficial.

 

[NoQuarter]

At least you don't have an ego problem of any kind. How refreshing!!
When you're all finished looking at others down the slope of your nose, feel free to get back to the thread topic. Thanks.

/back down to earth.

The funny thing is, you can paraphrase his argument to 'it's a waste of money unless you want the top of the line.'


I think we all inherently realize what he's arguing.. it's fairly uncontroversial. However the market for excess is fairly small. Generally when people are going to talk value here it's going to be price/performance for enthusiast parts. If someone's criteria require the highest performance or a specific feature set then they don't need to ask the question.

So I would assume if they are asking the question, the 5850x2 is a good value for them. If they aren't asking the question, they bought 1-3 GTX 480's.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Trying to write like I do, how cute. Nice to have imitators. On to your points, with the rhetoric removed.

In terms of a general conversation your style indicates a lack of experience interacting with others or youth. You attempt to write in a fashion that implies a superior command of communication and yet fail at very basic levels of comprehension.

Your universal claim: All top end products are poor value

Is English not your first language? I ask as nowhere did I state anything resembling that nor did I ever approach implying it. Absolutes are something I almost never use, those that do when entering into discourse are easy to spot as those that are poorly educated, sloppy, or simplying trying to look the part of the fool... most of the time

My claim: That only makes sense as a non-universal claim for certain components and certain people

You took issue with my application of the word value.

Again, your claim is that (1) "In all cases, the highest end product is a poor value" and my claim

That is a flat out lie. My posts are unedited in this thread. I made specific statements about four specific cases, I didn't come close to universal.

In basic logic a counter-example only works against a universal claim, not an existential one.

Using basic logic you don't lie about someone's stated position when the evidence is directly in front of everyone. You make a shocking leap from four specific examples to an absolute, it is hard to comprehend how one can make such a stretch and attempt to claim anything resembling logic.

It seems I mentioned a limiting clause that would eliminate products that aren't for sale

And when did I ever bring such a product up exactly? My use of words is rarely accidental. Are you making another false leap in bringing up value being placed on the highest performing part for a given segment and then assuming that the only parts in said segment were one of those from one of the four companies I listed? That was interrogative, not declarative. It seems to me that you are making that leap, it is hard to comprehend how someone could make so many errors on such a basic level. Perhaps your language skills are better then your mathematics by a shocking amount and you confuse four with all?

 

[tincart]

Wow, quite a bit more rhetoric and some more personal attacks. I'd belabor my point in identifying the various fallacies here.

Responding to the complaint that I am lying and/or misrepresenting your position. Consider the two statements you made:

-That amd/ati/nvda top-end products have a poor value proposition.
-"As is clearly understood by the even the most rudimentary following of the technology industry, all of the top line products have offerings at a lesser price point with identical feature sets within the same product line."

Now, as you have pointed out, I have a poor ability to understand and command language but it seems that the first point provides a claim about the top end products of three particular companies all of which offer poor value and then we get the "all of the top line products..." statement.

My understanding of the word "all" is a bit shaky but that would seem to be a universal claim. If you have an alternative understanding of the word "all", please elucidate that meaning for my flagging mental powers.

The two claims taken together amount, in logic, to what we call an "argument." Something like this:

Premise 1. For ALL top of the line products there exist products that are
1.a Cheaper ("at a lesser price point")
2.a Have "identical feature sets within the same product line"
Premise 2. There exists particular top end products of AMD/ATI/NVDA/INT that are of poor value
Conclusion: All top line products are of poor value.

The structure is similar to this more basic argument:

P1: Everyone loves a lover
P2: Sarah Loves Fred
C: Everyone Loves Everyone

Premise 1 establishes a universal rule, premise 2 establishes that a particular instance of P1 exists in the domain we are talking about (in this case, the domain is "the world" or "all people" or something like that) since you need to establish the existence of at least one particular to which P1 applies, and C follows necessarily from P1 and P2.

This is all pretty basic syllogistic logic. I can show it to you in predicate logic, but given your shaky understanding of what logic IS, I imagine the effort would be lost.

If you want to abandon your universal claim regarding top end products now, that's fine. You will still be wrong since, as per my previous points, the specific products we are talking about will be valuable to some people.

 

[Qbah]

Would you mind discussing the meaning and use of "value" somewhere else? Like, let's say, the Off-Topic forum here? It has nothing to do with the thread and is just a huge derailment.

 

[Skurge]

Would you mind discussing the meaning and use of "value" somewhere else? Like, let's say, the Off-Topic forum here? It has nothing to do with the thread and is just a huge derailment.

This.

My eyes glazed over just reading their posts.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Premise 1. For ALL top of the line products there exist products that are
1.a Cheaper ("at a lesser price point")
2.a Have "identical feature sets within the same product line"
Premise 2. There exists particular top end products of AMD/ATI/NVDA/INT that are of poor value
Conclusion: All top line products are of poor value.

Startling how poor your level of comprehension is. You make a staggering leap of the absolute used in terms of feature support relative to other parts to somehow make said term carry over to a broad based absolute in terms of value over everything in existance.

A) All McLarens come with tires

In no way equates to

B) Every vehicle that moves uses a V12 engine

You make staggering leaps in your attempt at discourse. My feature comment stands, in no way does that claim have the least bit to do with the matter of an absolute placed on value which is an entirely different angle of approach. As stated before, my choice of words is very rarely accidental. You can not quote the profoundly ignorant statement you are trying to state I made as it did not happen. Before you attempt to make serious headway in logical discourse, you first need to work on basic comprehension.

 

[nemesismk2]

another vote for the 5850 being the peoples champ

 

[Madcatatlas]

lol what is wrong with you guys, this is pure gold. Please keep the discussion going. And nice last post Tincart.
I would support your claim of "all" being closer to the "term" "universal", than the opposite.

(my native tongue is not english, but i do like to read it, and i just dont command the language aswell as you guys to write good input in this discussion)

 

[SlowSpyder]

I have to give tincart credit, in only 13 posts he collected a few compliments on his posting style, more or less declared himself a philosopher, annoyed the CPU mod, got into a pissing contest with one of the 'elite' members as well as accused said member of trying to post in his style, and taken this discussion pretty off topic. And in all of this I can't tell if he's going to be a troll who swings his dick around as being a superior thinker than the rest of us or if he'll add a lot of value and another view point to our discussions. Nice job for only 13 posts!

As far as the topic is concerned, the 5850 is the Rocky Balboa of the current crop in my opinion. Relatively cheap, very acceptable power/heat, great availability, non-reference designs everywhere for those who want it, and it generaly overclocks through the roof.

 

[Grooveriding]

5970 is boatloads faster than GTX 480.

There is no reason to buy a single GTX 480, as for the same price you can get two 5850s, which is boatloads faster than a GTX 480.

Only time a GTX 480 is worth buying, is if you are buying two for SLI, as in that situation it offers superior performance, for $1100. If you feel the additional performance 480 SLI offers over the $650 5970 is worth $450 more, then grab it.

Or get 5850CF or 5970 if you are only interested in buying one 480, as one 480 is not worth it considering the competition.

 

[jbh545]

5970 is boatloads faster than GTX 480.

There is no reason to buy a single GTX 480, as for the same price you can get two 5850s, which is boatloads faster than a GTX 480.

5850 = roughly $330
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...n=5850&x=0&y=0
GTX 480 = $500
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...tx+480&x=0&y=0


hth

 

[shangshang]

yeah what's wrong with you guys, Tincart's stuff is gold. It's not often that you'll find a person well versed in syllogism taking his time to post online. Plus, for the non native speakers like myself, we can learn a lot from his English.

Maybe he's showboating his command of syllogism a bit, but it's all good. I say don't hate it, learn from it.

Anyway, you guys seen those Discovery or Military channel programmes where people will do crazy shit just for the sake of doing it??? Ugh.... I'm thinking this is supposed to be an enthusiast techy-nerdy forum and some of you have a problem with 480 vs. 5970 comparison???? LOL c'mon now let's do this comparison and let the sparks fly!

(BTW, Benskywalker, I have nothing against you bro so this is not a diss on you. But I just want point out something you said regarding Tincart's command of language being better than his command of mathematics. Mathematics is considered a language. And back in the old days, mathematics would be grouped with the departments of liberal arts and languages. And back in antiquity, mathematicians are in most cases philosophers themselves too. In fact, the whole existence of the Western World today is made by philosophers in antiquity. I'm not saying you put Tincart on pedestals, but you seem to hint or value math more than philosophy when it's philosophy that's the precursor to mathematics. Math, like most languages, is just a tool. It's philosophy that empowers you make those tools)

 

[BenSkywalker]

It's not often that you'll find a person well versed in syllogism taking his time to post online.

Not in tech forums as they tend to be better for a good laugh then any sort of logical discourse. As a culture, we had the age of Enlightenment, syllogism belongs in antiquity for good reason. This forum due to its' very nature is pragmatic.

Mathematics is considered a language. And back in the old days, mathematics would be grouped with the departments of liberal arts and languages.

That is a rather interesting perspective. I'm assuming using that line of thought you consider Pythagoras the father of Mathematics? Do you consider Euclid's Elements to be the basis of current mathematics? I have to admit never having heard of mathematics being considered a language, where is it precisely that you were given that interesting perspective?

And back in antiquity, mathematicians are in most cases philosophers themselves too.

Back in antiquity most people of higher levels of education were highly educated in all areas and not nearly as specialized as they are today. You could make the statement that back in antiquity most mathematicians were philosophers and philosophy is simply an application of mathematical principles to societal issues.

I'm not saying you put Tincart on pedestals, but you seem to hint or value math more than philosophy when it's philosophy that's the precursor to mathematics.

That is an extremely interesting perspective. I would point out that most people acknowledge that the applied mathematic evolution of the Egyptians had already made significant progress over the course of the millenia prior to philosophers moving it into a more abstract level of thought. In fact, the amount of time mathematics was in wide spread use for commerce and engineering prior to Pythagoras is comparable to the amount of time from his life until now.

Also- I make the distinction between mathematics and philosophy to try and isolate the basic logical breakdown of Tincart's posts. At this point in time it is rather clear his issue is in elementary comprehension or intentional trolling.

 

[Obsoleet]

In September, when the 5870 launched, you felt a bit different about comparing a dual GPU card to a single one. In this case, GTX295 vs. HD5870.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=28659469&postcount=499

So according to you, we should be comparing 5970 to SLI'd GTX480s ?

Straighten us out here.

Keep in mind that I'm not disputing that AMD has the performance crown with the 5970 as far as a single card goes. Just as I didn't dispute the 5870 had the single GPU performance crown when it launched, or that Nvidia held the single card crown when the 5870 launched. Single GPU which you describe as not having all "the pitfalls of a multi-GPU solution" goes to the 480 at this point in time.

That's why I posted this thread. I'm making a point of the double standards.

Then, it was OK to compare a dual GPU Geforce to a single Radeon.
Now, it's NOT ok to compare a dual GPU Radeon to a single Geforce.

No foot in mouth, besides your own, and other people who choose to change their views depending on who they're shilling for.

Fair is fair. I'm going with your standards from yesterday.