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Going back to green: a rant

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SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,331
17
76
No you don't have to format, but it's good to do if you can even with nvidia cards. There are just so many issues that can be due to prior driver installations it ends up easier to do.
I disagree, no need to crack a nut with a sledge hammer. A fresh install with programs is hours and hours of work....I dont know any technician that would do that?!
 

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
106
Take a look at the following article

http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/43383-amd-eats-into-nvidia-intel-graphics-market-share

So if you combine information from your graph and from tgdaily article it looks like ATI actually caused twice as many issues as nVidia on per card basis...
According to that table you linked it looks like Nvidia has 50% more market share than ATI.

But the Pie graph shows three times as many crashes for Nvidia. Therefore can we assume Nvidia is responsible for twice as many crashes on a per card basis?
 
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blanketyblank

Golden Member
Jan 23, 2007
1,149
0
0
I disagree, no need to crack a nut with a sledge hammer. A fresh install with programs is hours and hours of work....I dont know any technician that would do that?!
I disagree with that analogy. It's more like fumigating your home after finding a cockroach.
Yes it's excessive, but it can take out the bugs and other things that may have been hiding there and causing problems. It's not like residual video drivers are the only possible problem, and a fresh install can eliminate a lot of possible errors.

I like to do a reformat every now and then just to ensure no virus or trojan somehow got past my antivirus.
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,618
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blame early adopters? besides Vista being crappy on release I cant think of any early adopter issues I have had. Windows 7 was tested out a lot more than Vista and I know of NO specific video card conflicts with it. I bought Nvidia DX10 8xxx cards back on release and never had any notable issues. I also bought the gtx260 not long after release and no notable issues there either.

really ATI is having quite a few issues and just to say its because its new hardware is no excuse at this point. even disregarding all their regular issues they have had 5 months to get their shit togther on the 5xxx series but still havent done it. hell didnt the newest ATI drivers screw up more than it fixed?
it is not a blame, but a fact of life. as things mature, they become more stable. plain and simple. for oss i usually don't move up, if i do and usually only if certain software i use needs it, is usually after the first service pack. the exception may be win7 but in a vm enviornment first. again, win7 has been out for some time in differet rcs, so i wouldnt even call it new.

personally i haven't run w/ a nvidia card since the ti4200, more because when the upgrade cycle came the ati card was the better value and haven't had any issues - but agian, running on xp pro still. even when i got my last gpu, a 4850, it did have the fan issues, but changing the fan profile in the firmware was an easy fix, which i did and it has been rock stable for quite some time. hopefully ati will get these fixes that people are talking about rectified in the short term, my next upgrade, if necessary will probably be a 5850 :) we will see.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,649
1,157
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I'm overall happy with my 5770, but will be relieved when competition returns to the arena. I think historically I've been happier with Nvidia products, nothing against ATI though.

Speaking of early adopters, the people who bought 9700Pro or 8800GTX on release were golden for YEARS, lol.
 

SolMiester

Diamond Member
Dec 19, 2004
5,331
17
76
I disagree with that analogy. It's more like fumigating your home after finding a cockroach.
Yes it's excessive, but it can take out the bugs and other things that may have been hiding there and causing problems. It's not like residual video drivers are the only possible problem, and a fresh install can eliminate a lot of possible errors.

I like to do a reformat every now and then just to ensure no virus or trojan somehow got past my antivirus.
Trouble with Cockies, is that the fumigation doesnt kill the eggs AFAIK....Perhaps you need better A/V and malware software?
 

Allio

Golden Member
Jul 9, 2002
1,904
28
91
I absolutely concur with everything pro-green on this thread. I swear that some people on this site are paid to come here and say AMD is the best. Granted I can see ATI has a lot of pros to it recently (basically price/raw performance), but to me it just doesn't outweigh them mostly sucking dick for my uses.

If I had to buy a card right now, it would be an GTX 285. Even if i could get a 5870 for 50$, it would never touch my PCI-e lanes.
I love how "your uses" turned out to be this:

but if your one of the three users out there than need to run D3d6- code uncapped in windows 7, ATI is not a good choice.
I think three users is optimistic. How's that 3000 frames per second in Quake II working out for you? Honestly, what made you think that the unavailability of a non-essential software function in games that are well over a decade old in the very latest 64 bit OS justified your dick-sucking rant back there? An argument that ATI cards are better because the control panel has more red in it would probably have more merit.
 

Ben90

Platinum Member
Jun 14, 2009
2,866
2
0
I think three users is optimistic. How's that 3000 frames per second in Quake II working out for you? Honestly, what made you think that the unavailability of a non-essential software function in games that are well over a decade old in the very latest 64 bit OS justified your dick-sucking rant back there? An argument that ATI cards are better because the control panel has more red in it would probably have more merit.
What if I made a healthy amount of money playing Quake? I'm just telling you my situation, I'm sure its different from yours. I'm sorry you are having a hard time understanding that not everyone uses a computer the same way you do.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
I bought a 4850 and had a hell of a time with it out of the box. At first the ATI control panel was unable to determine my monitor supported 1600X1200. I mean seriously?????
After forcing it to 1600X1200 I had all sorts of issues with black screens, game crashes, and driver recoveries. I found uninstalling CCC fixed all of my problems. Stability has been pretty good since CCC went away.
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
3
81
I didn't really read the whole thread, but I assume there's a whole bunch of bickering back and forth from both sides. Since I got back into desktops in 2007, my graphics cards have been 8800GTX 640MB, 8800GTS 512, HD4870, GTX295, and HD5870, never mind the many other rigs and systems I've built, set-up, or worked on for other people. I've never really had any "deal breaker" issues with either side, maybe because I run a pretty standard system and with a pretty standard software suite. I think it'd be prudent of people with issues to do their homework before buying a part. If you buy a 5870 because it's the fastest GPU out there, you can't be pissed when the F@H performance is less than that of your GTX285 because F@H isn't optimized for AMD hardware; that isn't AMD's fault, it's yours. In response to the OP, it's well known that the 5000 series kicks into a low power (UVD?) mode when running multiple monitors to increase stability - it's not AMD's fault that you didn't do your homework. Furthermore, one can always re-edit and tweak the BIOS to lower power consumption again. I had a GTX295 that was a god damn furnace, which I was well aware of when I bought it. When summer came around, you know what I did? I re-edited the BIOS and lowered both the 2D and 3D voltages to curb power consumption by more than 30% instead of coming on to the forums and writing a post complaining about it.
 

Cookie Monster

Diamond Member
May 7, 2005
5,161
32
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you can't be pissed when the F@H performance is less than that of your GTX285 because F@H isn't optimized for AMD hardware; that isn't AMD's fault, it's yours.
This could apply to people who didnt do the homework and expected high F@H performance from the new DX11 part. The key word here is "expect". F@H didn't just pop up from no where, nor is it something new. We've had this for quite along time and people could rightly expect something to be done to AMD's lacking F@H performance. Im not sure what the reasons are but they fail to deliver in this front which is what matters.

In response to the OP, it's well known that the 5000 series kicks into a low power (UVD?) mode when running multiple monitors to increase stability - it's not AMD's fault that you didn't do your homework.
Actually, because the cards downclock to their idle clocks, users with multiple monitors suffer from instability because the 2D clocks are too low. One of the fixes are to completely forgo the idle clocks, but this means the user is losing that excellent idle power consumption figure. AMD could be blamed for being lazy, but nVIDIA too is guilty of this (its a problem thats been around forever and Id wish both of the IHVs would pay more attention to multi-monitor users). However most people would expect such basic feature to work straight out of the box.

Getting back to topic, Im in the same situation as Mrk6. Ive owned cards from the FX days to the present. Ive yet to encounter a driver issue that would make me so mad that I would turn on my PC and start a new thread about how IHV A is ****. Sure I encounter some issues, but being a PC enthusiast encourages me to find a solution to these issues (both software and hardware). But one thing for sure is that not all people will share the same experience. IMHO no one has the right to say that the OP is wrong because she/he didn't have the same experience with drivers as I did for example.

As long as the user is satisfied there is no reason to switch to IHV A because the majority is satisfied with that particular IHV.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,829
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Actually, because the cards downclock to their idle clocks, users with multiple monitors suffer from instability because the 2D clocks are too low. One of the fixes are to completely forgo the idle clocks, but this means the user is losing that excellent idle power consumption figure. AMD could be blamed for being lazy, but nVIDIA too is guilty of this (its a problem thats been around forever and Id wish both of the IHVs would pay more attention to multi-monitor users). However most people would expect such basic feature to work straight out of the box.

It's not just multi-monitor, though I've read some posts about people with a lot of artifacts running multi-monitors that is fixed by boosting the blocks.

I'm using 1 monitor, and if I started using my computer more than 2 hours a day, I think I could average at least one 2D/Desktop crash a day on my 5770. On the weekend, when I use it for 5+ hours, it crashes under idle load just web-surfing. Yesterday, it initiated by closing a browser window. The standard fix is to bump up the idle clocks by editing a profile; this "fix" has been out since December '09 on the AMD forums, and they still haven't done jack shit. I'm probably going back to Nvidia after this; my old 7600gt was near flawless, only crashed a few times in 3+ years during heavy gaming.
 

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
4,810
5
76
www.ultimatehardware.net
I bought a 4850 and had a hell of a time with it out of the box. At first the ATI control panel was unable to determine my monitor supported 1600X1200. I mean seriously?????
After forcing it to 1600X1200 I had all sorts of issues with black screens, game crashes, and driver recoveries. I found uninstalling CCC fixed all of my problems. Stability has been pretty good since CCC went away.
I bought a Gainward Radeon 4850 and although the performance was good it got really hot during the summer which made my computer crash so went back to my XFX GeForce 8800 GT.
 

CurseTheSky

Diamond Member
Oct 21, 2006
5,401
1
0
No, I was smart enough to know NOT to install that operating system. (Vista).
I went from XP to windows 7 64 bit
Then you missed a perfectly good operating system. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Vista, and in fact, it's nearly identical to Windows 7. The bad rep it got was simply from shoddy drivers for early adopters (and a lot of this blame is placed on Nvidia, apparently) and unnecessary horror stories that even persist to this day. Windows 7 is simply Vista with a few features thrown in, a few revisions, and a few things removed. You know how almost all Windows 2000 drivers are the same for Windows Xp? It's the same thing for Vista / 7. Underneath the skin, they're built the same way. The differences between Windows 2000 / Xp are far more dramatic than Vista / 7, though.

I happen to have two systems sitting next to me. The desktop in my signature, and the SFF. My HD 5770 arrives today. Seeing as I'll own a card on both sides of the fence, I think it's time to install it, play games for a few days, and come back with a conclusion about where the problem really lies. I have dual monitors, too, so I'll be testing that as well.
 
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MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
3
81
Then you missed a perfectly good operating system. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Vista, and in fact, it's nearly identical to Windows 7. The bad rep it got was simply from shoddy drivers for early adopters (and a lot of this blame is placed on Nvidia, apparently) and unnecessary horror stories that even persist to this day. Windows 7 is simply Vista with a few features thrown in, a few revisions, and a few things removed. You know how almost all Windows 2000 drivers are the same for Windows Xp? It's the same thing for Vista / 7. They're essentially the same operating system.
Amen. I thought two years after release this FUD would have died off, but I guess not. Although I suppose I should be happy, because all the unfounded Vista bashing ended up with a great OS being practically given away :).

I happen to have two systems sitting next to me. The desktop in my signature, and the SFF. My HD 5770 arrives today. Seeing as I'll own a card on both sides of the fence, I think it's time to install it, play games for a few days, and come back with a conclusion about where the problem really lies. I have dual monitors, too, so I'll be testing that as well.
I'd be very interested in hearing your personal experience; looking forward to it.
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,618
19
81
I bought a Gainward Radeon 4850 and although the performance was good it got really hot during the summer which made my computer crash so went back to my XFX GeForce 8800 GT.
there was an issue w/ the early 4850s, not sure when you got yours, but basically the fan didn't kick on until 69C - you had to, back when the card first came out modify the cards firmware and fix the fan profile. that was the only issue i had from when i got my 4850 quite some time ago, until NOW w/ their ccc 10.x setup, going back to 9.12. shouldn't have opened my mouth earlier in this thread, jinxed me :(
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
My fan works just fine and it doesnt overheat. Actually it is kind of annoying the fan kicks in while watching youtube lol
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,143
32
91
Every rumor, my God! Not just one rumor, or a handful, but EVERY rumor points to it being disappointing. Wait wait, SEVERELY disappointing, sorry. I was about to wait and see what Fermi actually did, you know, in real life, but in the face of such strident rumerical evidence (is "rumerical" a word? I heard from several sources that it was so it must be), I have bought a $729 5970 instead of waiting.
don't look at rumors, look at past history. how many times has a video card company been this late to the game and produced a world-changing beast of a card? Nvidia absolutely bombed last fall, missing both xmas AND the win7 release, but yeah, they'll probably have everything perfect with no hardware and/or driver issues the day fermi releases. Any time I've bought a next gen card within 6-9 mos of release from either camp I've had issues; I waited 9 mos and bought a gtx260 last year and have been extremely happy with it. If you're more concerned about stability/usability than absolutely cutting edge performance then I'd look at a 4870/gtx260/gts250 class card, probably even a used one. last time I checked they were $100 or less and they come with fewer headaches.

nice new word btw. that needs to get in the urban dictionary pronto!
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,143
32
91
Wow take literal the noise level I stated and say something about it not having a fan, speaking of indications....

There is no easy way to disable the power saving feature. So "as you understand" and "layman's terms" means little to me.

Again, are my expectations too high - the CCC made for ATi cards should not have a bunch of bugs with them.

Perhaps the 280 did have some issues when released, I dunno I bought 2 285s and if I bought a 280 and it had issues and they weren't easily remedied I would also have made a rant thread about it.
um, why don't you just oc it by 1 mhz?
 

bob4432

Lifer
Sep 6, 2003
11,618
19
81
after trying ver 10.1 of ccc, i have to say ati did something bad w/ that. i had to clock the 3d clocks down to 620/940 just to get it to be somewhat stable. i uninstalled, rebooted into safe mode, ran driver sweeper to get rid of all things ati and put 9.10 back and let it "auto tune" its oc - went to 690/1115 and just gamed for an hour straight w/out so much as a hiccup and went up to 60C (coh high or very high graphics / 1920x1200 and according to fraps 40-50fps in the sparse areas, ~20 in dense areas w/ a lot of fighting/explosions, buildings, etc).

what exactly was introduced in the latest 10.1 version? i will concede, it is pretty bad since i am running a mature card on xp 32 - nothing new here and 10.1 destroyed it.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,143
32
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I noticed with my 3870 that my oc seemed to go down pretty often when new drivers were released. keep in mind that they are often getting more out of the card with the new drivers, so, for example 750/1100 could be generally faster with cat 10.1 than 775/1200 was with cat 9.12. I don't have my benchmarks lying around anymore, but iirc I had this exact scenario in crysis with my 3870. I stopped doing benchmarks with my 4850 and gtx 260 so I don't know if that is a typical scenario these days, however.
 

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