God? What do you think:

[Cerpin Taxt]

We are physiologically wired to have spiritual experiences.

We're also physiologically wired to get high from marijuana, cocaine, psilocybin, mescaline, etc...

 

[Nik]

We're also wired to die in space without protective gear. That doesn't mean you should go do what you're wired to do.

 

[jupiter57]

If it weren't for the trials and tribulations you've faced then would you still be who you are?

Therein lies the problem with these so-called "Atheists".
They have yet to face any trials and tribulations.

We have an old saying amongst veterans: "There are no Atheists in foxholes".

 

[Nik]

Therein lies the problem with these so-called "Atheists".
They have yet to face any trials and tribulations.

We have an old saying amongst veterans: "There are no Atheists in foxholes".

If god existed, we wouldn't need foxholes to be in.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

Therein lies the problem with these so-called "Atheists".
They have yet to face any trials and tribulations.

We have an old saying amongst veterans: "There are no Atheists in foxholes".

You realize that's complete and total bull

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes

 

[SlitheryDee]

Therein lies the problem with these so-called "Atheists".
They have yet to face any trials and tribulations.

We have an old saying amongst veterans: "There are no Atheists in foxholes".

All that would mean is that your mental fortitude breaks down in times of stress. There is no honor in giving in to the temptation of an afterlife as a last grasping resort.

I could just as easily say "There are no faithful husbands in the playboy mansion". It amounts to the same breakdown of long term ideals for a short term relief doesn't it?

 

[datalink7]

Therein lies the problem with these so-called "Atheists".
They have yet to face any trials and tribulations.

We have an old saying amongst veterans: "There are no Atheists in foxholes".

Funny. I deployed to Iraq with the first Combat Brigade of the Surge during the height of a nasty civil war as part of the Infantry. I've seen men blown up, women killed and children tortured. I've been shot at and targeted with IED's.

I never once offered a prayer to God. I was an Atheist before, an Atheist during, and an Atheist after.

But I guess I didn't go through "any trials and tribulations".

 

[jonks]

Funny. I deployed to Iraq with the first Combat Brigade of the Surge during the height of a nasty civil war as part of the Infantry. I've seen men blown up, women killed and children tortured. I've been shot at and targeted with IED's.

I never once offered a prayer to God. I was an Atheist before, an Atheist during, and an Atheist after.

But I guess I didn't go through "any trials and tribulations".

Maybe you did, but did you spend any time in a foxhole? aha!

Therein lies the problem with these so-called "Atheists".
They have yet to face any trials and tribulations.

We have an old saying amongst veterans: "There are no Atheists in foxholes".

Good point! Only by seeing the complete fuckedupedness that mankind is capable of can one be convinced that a universal overseer has to be responsible for this shit. There's no way we could have possibly become this evil without some supernatural help.

 

[datalink7]

Maybe you did, but did you spend any time in a foxhole? aha!

Ok, technically no fox hole. It was Baghdad after all... not too much digging going on. I did jump into an IED crater to take cover once... does that count?

 

[bfdd]

Therein lies the problem with these so-called "Atheists".
They have yet to face any trials and tribulations.

We have an old saying amongst veterans: "There are no Atheists in foxholes".

define trials and tribulations? something hard you had to over come? been there done that. near death experience? been there done that, THREE TIMES. so which is it? None of my near death experiences have put the fear of God into me. None have made me religious. I wake up everyday unafraid of dying. I don't go out of my way to kill myself, but the thought doesn't perturb me one bit.

 

[irishScott]

Deist. I believe that God exists due to the presence of order in nature. I do not claim it as fact and believe many components of major regions have no more legitimacy than fairy tales.

 

[jonks]

Ok, technically no fox hole. It was Baghdad after all... not too much digging going on. I did jump into an IED crater to take cover once... does that count?

According to wikipedia, no, no it does not. Thus your entire post is negated. Shoo.

 

[JackBurton]

Therein lies the problem with these so-called "Atheists".
They have yet to face any trials and tribulations.

We have an old saying amongst veterans: "There are no Atheists in foxholes".

You understand that is just what the retarded religious people say, right?

 

[bvalpati]

We're all agnostic regardless what any of us think and there will never be peace nor real progress until every human accepts it.

 

[JackBurton]

define trials and tribulations? something hard you had to over come? been there done that. near death experience? been there done that, THREE TIMES. so which is it? None of my near death experiences have put the fear of God into me. None have made me religious. I wake up everyday unafraid of dying. I don't go out of my way to kill myself, but the thought doesn't perturb me one bit.

Yep. I went into surgery not knowing if I'd come out or not and it didn't bother me one bit. Put me under and if I don't wake up, I don't wake up. Let's do this!

Religious people are the ones that are afraid of dying. And why? Isn't that where all the good stuff is? I mean if you had a winning $250 million lottery ticket, are you going to wait years to pick it up?

 

[Malak]

We're all agnostic regardless what any of us think and there will never be peace nor real progress until every human accepts it.

I sure hope that was a joke and not a serious comment.

 

[Nik]

I sure hope that was a joke and not a serious comment.

His comment has more merit than any of your arguments so far.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

We're also physiologically wired to get high from marijuana, cocaine, psilocybin, mescaline, etc...

Hum.. I hope you see that I was simply stating that the idea that there is no empirical evidence supporting psychological reality of spiritual matters for some people is false. And in the end it's the reflection of the world that we see in our heads that we all must make peace with.

I doubt there are many that can say that they've seen someone that's had his life turned around by faith in Christ can honestly say that the person was better off being a junkie.

That's one of the most basic logical fallacies out there.

I offered my experience, no 'forced choice' was intended.

Though I don't see those as the only two options.

I don't either, please see my final statements in this post.

I believe my positive emotional response to life to be much more potent when I am not citing some nebulous "Spiritual" aspect as it's source.

I'm happy for you!

No doubt that there are many ways to bring about and activate that spiritual feeling; I feel awe at the concept of e. My experience shows that for some faith in Christ can be very very positive; the sort of thing that enables someone to function who otherwise would not be able to.

This may not work every time or for every psychological problem (everyone is wired differently) and has been exploited by many in the past in-order to cause much harm but despite this I still offer my experience so others might benifit:

I know three former free-base coke addicts that turned their lives around by having faith in Christ. I was bipolar and suicidal for many years until I gave up on self-pity and self-hate and re-directed those emotional pathways to my faith in Christ.

If you are happy and don't need "to be saved" or are dedicated to not believing in Christ for what ever reason, then I wish you the best of luck in living a fulfilled life, no doubt many have died having achieved their goals without ever believing in Jesus.

 

[JackBurton]

No doubt that there are many ways to bring about and activate that spiritual feeling; I feel awe at the concept of e. My experience shows that for some faith in Christ can be very very positive; the sort of thing that enables someone to function who otherwise would not be able to.

I completely agree. Some people are not strong enough to deal with cold hard reality so they use religion as a crutch to help them through their lives. Yes Santa is AWESOME and I would love to believe he brings presents on his magic sleigh every year, but the cold hard truth is, there is no Santa. You can believe in him all you want, but it doesn't make him any more real.

I know three former free-base coke addicts that turned their lives around by having faith in Christ. I was bipolar and suicidal for many years until I gave up on self-pity and self-hate and re-directed those emotional pathways to my faith in Christ.

You understand that if these addicts were in a center that preached Islam they'd be saved by Allah, right? Addicts are in a VERY vulnerable state when they are in rehab and that is where Christians LOVE to prey on people. They take advantage of these people and instead of showing them how to deal with reality, them give them a magic land to play in. It is an outlet for them, just like drugs were. And whenever they leave rehab, they still leave as an addict. They just turned their drug addiction into a Jesus addiction. And while the Jesus addiction is better than the drug addiction, it still has some nasty side effects.

If you are happy and don't need "to be saved" or are dedicated to not believing in Christ for what ever reason, then I wish you the best of luck in living a fulfilled life, no doubt many have died having achieved their goals without ever believing in Jesus.

That's like saying, "if you are dedicated to not believe in Santa..." There is really no "dedication." It's simply just a lack of your belief. It is a neutral state if you will. There is no active "not believing." It just is what it is.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

In the face of empirical social-psychological benefit to faith I find it illogical not to believe, you might call my rationalization of being irrational irrational; I say if a placebo works when you know it's a placebo then it's not a placebo, its the power of irrational faith and hope.

I don't know enough about the saving power of faith in the Quran, I would be open to hearing similar testimony regarding any other religion and would likely accept much of what was said; as I know that people of almost every faith have religious ecstatic experiences along the lines of "speaking in tongues". I've simple never heard such testimony and have experienced my own, which is why I share what I've observed.

This makes me wish I had more scientifically valid findings to report. I'm a right-well trained social scientists and will conduct a rigorous psychological study on this and get back to you all with my findings.

 

[Nik]

That placebo concept explains perfectly how the false concept of some sort of god can fool weak-minded people.

 

[zokudu]

Voted. Theist (Religious)

 

[Dr. Zaus]

That placebo concept explains perfectly how the false concept of some sort of god can fool weak-minded people.

What is weak minded about hope? I offered an example of placebo working even when the people where told that the pill had no efficacy, I offered the example of 3 people I know of that have overcome coke-addiction and my own overcoming of mental illness as examples for the efficacy of faith. How is it weak-minded to will yourself into a better state of being? I assure you that by every psychological metric those people I've seen come to faith in Christ are much more mentally stable than before they came to faith.

Weak mindednes is the state of being easily impressionable or possessing a weak sense of self-will, judgment or conviction.

That doesn't sound like many people of faith I've met, if anything they are strong willed goats unwilling to change their point of view, thus the reason for this flow chart:

So tell me, step one on having a conversation, is there anything I can possibly offer that will support for you the efficacy of faith? More aptly, I've offered qualitative empirical evidence (my experience) and corollary findings that are explained by my theory. This puts the ball in your court to offer counter evidence for your own claims.

I request, as per section 3, that you defend any counter points to the efficacy of faith with well ideas that have some basis in empiricism. Otherwise you are arguing from your emotional disdain for the 'irrationality' of those with faith, as much as a preacher is arguing from an emotional disdain for the 'evil' Atheists. This point of view requires that anyone holding a contrary view be automatically wrong and in violation of the most basic tenants of what is most important when it comes to being a person; this means that no matter what is said, anything involving faith is by nature the non-theistic equivalent of blasphemy, which of course precludes discussion.

I understand if you do not have any empirical counter examples; it is unlikely that much research has been done in this arena. As such I will conduct my own research, this will likely take a good number of months, but I will share my findings with ATOT when I've completed it.

 

[DJK Frank 16]

These results are very interesting.

 

[Nik]

They're weak willed because they'd rather believe some fairy tale bullshit someone else stuffed down their throat at a weak moment in their life, further breeding ignorance and enabling the brainwashing to continue.

Faith isn't my problem. I have faith in things every day and I'm not religious or spiritual in any way anymore.

Faith isn't the only thing needed for religion. You have to want to be ignorant. You have to want to believe in something when you have absolutely no reason to believe in it.