God: A Mass Murderer?

[totalnoob]

He could have cleaned up everything but in order to do so, to prevent challenges like this in the future, he would have to eliminate "free will"

Preventing earthquakes, tsunamis, parasites, disease, cancer, birth defects, etc eliminates our free will HOW exactly?

 

[Blackjack200]

Well he did promise clean up everything and eliminate sickness and death in the future. He could have cleaned up everything but in order to do so, to prevent challenges like this in the future, he would have to eliminate "free will". But receiving worship from "robots" does not serve any point or purpose.

I don't understand how eliminating sickness eliminates free will, and I don't even understand what that concept has to do with God tolerating the torment of an innocent man.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

God didn't partake in those things, he let it happen.

Isn't that a bit like taping a lit firecracker to a baby's hand, and then trying to say you didn't "partake" in blowing the baby's fingers off? You just "let it happen," after all.

The mental contortions of which theists are capable never cease to astound me.

Well once the point is proven, there will be no more challenges or rebellions because there is precedent. He took the future into consideration.

It's also pretty silly to say that God knows the future infallibly yet does not "partake" in the future he created with that infallible foreknowledge. We penalize people in civil court for things that they could reasonably foresee as consequences of their choices, yet nobody indicts God for infallibly foreseeing the consequences of his choice to create exactly this universe.

 

[totalnoob]

This thread reminds me of Thunderf00t's video..

The Internet: Where Religions Come to Die - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rqw4krMOug

 

[Blackjack200]

Awesome, I didn't know people on here watched his videos. They were pretty much the last straw for me in terms of becoming an atheist. I was already having doubts, but his arguments really blew it away. He's pretty talented.

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

So God is incapable of issuing challenges on his own? He's incapable of properly engineering a being, and then debugging his own design? He needs someone else to torment and torture his beloved creations to tease out flaws?

While I'm ok with some animal testing, done for things like live-saving medicines, well, we humans don't have "all-knowing" on our resumes. The Christian god does. I'd expect even just a reasonably-advanced alien race to be capable of creating a simulation which would show how a human brain would react to any given situation. Certainly an all-knowing, all-powerful entity would be able to just give the scenario an idle thought, and arrive at a conclusion, all without the torture and such inflicted by one of his out-of-control creations.

Even amonst us, simulations are not accepted as hard evidence. Because the real world has many different x factors.

Ok, then how would you have created the angels and humans then? What would you have done differently? If you make every creation only capable of good then you've already eliminated "free will" which doesn't give any purpose to the act of creation itself. In a real life scenario, if you had kids, would you rather your kids love you and respect you by coming to the decision on their own or would you reengineer them, put inhibitors in their brain so that they never fall out of line?

 

[MJinZ]

Even amonst us, simulations are not accepted as hard evidence. Because the real world has many different x factors.

Ok, then how would you have created the angels and humans then? What would you have done differently? If you make every creation only capable of good then you've already eliminated "free will" which doesn't give any purpose to the act of creation itself.

Because I don't have wings and I can't fly I don't have free will?

Because I can't swim like a fish I don't have free will?

Things you can't do in life.

In a real life scenario, if you had kids, would you rather your kids love you and respect you by coming to the decision on their own or would you reengineer them, put inhibitors in their brain so that they never fall out of line?

Uh, are you dumb?

We are engineered to love our parents. No free will.
We respect them 'cause they're bigger than us. No free will.
We are also engineered to want to socialize. No free will.
We are also engineered to not want to hurt babies. No free will.

Fuck, I guess we don't really have free will after all.

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

It doesn't matter what local traditions were at the time..The bible is supposed to contain the supreme moral law by a flawless being. Forcing rape victims to marry their rapists would be considered quite sick by modern standards. The fact that genocide, rape, slavery, etc were common thousands of years ago is no excuse for a timeless god. He would have known these things were wrong and issued commandments against them, rather than prescribing twisted rules for how they were to be carried out. Mere mortals should never be able to surpass the morality of a timeless god, but apparently we have.

He did issue commandments against them but not all were punishable by death. Like today's modern laws. Those directions were only stipulations in case the law wasn't followed. And if you consider the traditions of those times, that was a pretty good arrangement. Just because we think it is sick today doesn't mean our standards applied to back in the day. And according to the New Testament, Christians don't even follow the Mosaic Law anymore. (e.g. Circumcision is not required)

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

Preventing earthquakes, tsunamis, parasites, disease, cancer, birth defects, etc eliminates our free will HOW exactly?

For that you'll have to go back to the challenge presented in the Garden of Eden. By eating the forbidden fruit, humankind decided they can rule themselves without God. Because they chose to leave then they need to deal with their problems on their own. That means no intervention from God. Preventing earthquakes does not have anything to with eliminating free will. I don't get your point.

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

I don't understand how eliminating sickness eliminates free will, and I don't even understand what that concept has to do with God tolerating the torment of an innocent man.

see above.

 

[Regs]

Rationalization.

Our actions become increasingly depended on cold calculations and efficiency, than our values and traditions. Some say we're sacrificing the fabric that keeps society civil for faster output and productivity. God was never the true murderer, but he was a good excuse.

 

[shortylickens]

Rationalization.

Our actions become increasingly depended on cold calculations and efficiency, than our values and traditions. Some say we're sacrificing the fabric that keeps society civil for faster output and productivity. God was never the true murderer, but he was a good excuse.

Arguably we've been doing that since the Dark Ages ended.

 

[totalnoob]

Awesome, I didn't know people on here watched his videos. They were pretty much the last straw for me in terms of becoming an atheist. I was already having doubts, but his arguments really blew it away. He's pretty talented.

a good playlist I recommend..

http://www.youtube.com/user/AronRa#grid/user/126AFB53A6F002CC (watch his "second foundational falsehood of creationism" video. It only takes him 2 minutes 8 seconds to COMPLETELY DESTROY every religion)

more good atheist channels..

http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup#p/u/3/T69TOuqaqXI
http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector
http://www.youtube.com/user/AtheistExperience
http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007
http://www.youtube.com/user/BionicDance
http://www.youtube.com/user/EdwardCurrent
http://www.youtube.com/user/FFreeThinker
http://www.youtube.com/user/ZOMGitsCriss

 

[Gibsons]

For that you'll have to go back to the challenge presented in the Garden of Eden. By eating the forbidden fruit, humankind decided they can rule themselves without God. Because they chose to leave then they need to deal with their problems on their own. That means no intervention from God. Preventing earthquakes does not have anything to with eliminating free will. I don't get your point.

He's intervened lots of times according to some sources. Lots of smitings, lots of wars with god on one side.

 

[totalnoob]

And according to the New Testament, Christians don't even follow the Mosaic Law anymore. (e.g. Circumcision is not required)

Did Jesus not say "every jot and tiddle" of the old law was to be obeyed? In any case, the mosaic laws do not speak well of your "perfect" god. He gave explicit directions on how men could sell their daughters into slavery, how much people could charge for slaves, how hard they were allowed to beat their slaves, how they were to mark them as property (by driving a stake through their ear), etc. Even the "kindler gentler" new testament never condemns slavery. On the contrary..

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. - Ephesians 6:5

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. - 1 Timothy 6:1-2

That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. - Luke 12:47

For that you'll have to go back to the challenge presented in the Garden of Eden. By eating the forbidden fruit, humankind decided they can rule themselves without God.

Fail. This was the tree of KNOWLEDGE. Before they ate the fruit, they had no knowledge of right and wrong, good or evil. Without knowledge of the concept of evil, they had no means of knowing their actions were evil..yet they were punished anyway. Think about this buddy..God is timeless and omniscient, which means he knows everything that will ever happen. He created a man with an inquisitive nature (knowing how he would respond to the magic tree). He then proceeded to create the tree, create the evil talking snake, allow the snake into the garden, then allow the "crime" to take place. Unless God is flawed and possesses imperfect knowledge, he knew the millisecond he finished creating Adam that this would happen..yet he chose to do it anyway, rather than erasing him and starting over. It's just like dropping your cat/dog, then punishing it for hitting the ground.

If you want to cling the assumption that God is omniscient, the only conclusion you can draw from the Adam story is that "the fall" (and subsequent punishment of BILLIONS of Adam's descendants) was part of the plan from the beginning.

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

Isn't that a bit like taping a lit firecracker to a baby's hand, and then trying to say you didn't "partake" in blowing the baby's fingers off? You just "let it happen," after all.

The mental contortions of which theists are capable never cease to astound me.

Isn't taping a lit firecracker considered "partaking"?

It's also pretty silly to say that God knows the future infallibly yet does not "partake" in the future he created with that infallible foreknowledge. We penalize people in civil court for things that they could reasonably foresee as consequences of their choices, yet nobody indicts God for infallibly foreseeing the consequences of his choice to create exactly this universe.

Things that are significant to a child become less and less significant as they grow older. A child may cry that his favorite toy broke. Also a year to a child is feels like an eternity. As adults we don't care that our favorite toy broke back then and a year passes by pretty fast to us. The point is the way we perceive our world is relative to our age.

If we gain eternal life as was originally intended, the stuff we went through in our first 80 years or so will seem brief and insignificant. God also knows this and is planning accordingly.

 

[AMDZen]

Christians try and discount the Old testament. Apparently, only the new testament is valid in using as an argument against them.

This is how they honestly think

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

He's intervened lots of times according to some sources. Lots of smitings, lots of wars with god on one side.

He's intervened for the people that chose to follow him. But for mankind as a whole he's stopped intervening.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Rationalization.

Our actions become increasingly depended on cold calculations and efficiency, than our values and traditions. Some say we're sacrificing the fabric that keeps society civil for faster output and productivity. God was never the true murderer, but he was a good excuse.

Bingo. God was invented to rationalize what people wanted to do and were going to do anyway. Killing, raping, stealing, plundering, tormenting anyone who is not exactly like you, those are pretty horrible acts and they tend to weigh on the conscience after a while. But fabricate a big book of fairy tales where somebody more powerful than you demands such acts removes your personal sense of responsibility for your own deeds. Stanley Milgram did some great research on the acts man was willing to commit as long as it was validated by somebody higher up. He meant it as a study in war crimes to see what soldiers were capable of when following order, but it holds true for religion too. People desperately want somebody else to blame for their own animal instincts and an invisible man in the sky is a perfect solution.

 

[Gibsons]

He's intervened for the people that chose to follow him. But for mankind as a whole he's stopped intervening.

Or, maybe he never intervened anywhere at any time, because he doesn't exist.

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

Christians try and discount the Old testament. Apparently, only the new testament is valid in using as an argument against them.

This is how they honestly think

The Christians that do are in the wrong.
2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

The Mosaic Law was a covenant meant for the Hebrews. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from it. From studying the events of the Old Testament we are able to see how the laws were designed to protect the people. Once we understand the spirit of the Law, we can then apply it to our lives naturally.

 

[MJinZ]

The Christians that do are in the wrong.
2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

The Mosaic Law was a covenant meant for the Hebrews. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from it. From studying the events of the Old Testament we are able to see how the laws were designed to protect the people. Once we understand the spirit of the Law, we can then apply it to our lives naturally.

Awesome. Since the spirit of the laws are clearly punitive, sadistics, and moral less - I guess it makes perfect sense.

 

[Blackjack200]

a good playlist I recommend..

http://www.youtube.com/user/AronRa#grid/user/126AFB53A6F002CC (watch his "second foundational falsehood of creationism" video. It only takes him 2 minutes 8 seconds to COMPLETELY DESTROY every religion)

more good atheist channels..

http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup#p/u/3/T69TOuqaqXI
http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector
http://www.youtube.com/user/AtheistExperience
http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007
http://www.youtube.com/user/BionicDance
http://www.youtube.com/user/EdwardCurrent
http://www.youtube.com/user/FFreeThinker
http://www.youtube.com/user/ZOMGitsCriss

Can't watch from work but I recognize 4 of them. QualiaSoup and cdk especially make outstanding videos. Edward Current is decent, ZOMGitsCriss...

If I can recommend a couple of my own (don't have the link but they're very easy to search):

Pat Condell - former stand up comic that puts out a talking-head video ever 3 or 4 days, his sarcastic rants against Catholicism and Islam are absolutely fantastic.

DPRJones - Used to be really good but IMO has fallen off a bit recently. Watch some of his early stuff.

 

[sandorski]

fail

So sorry, negatory.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Isn't taping a lit firecracker considered "partaking"?

<sigh> :\

OF COURSE IT IS. That's the point I was making, moron. Isn't creating a universe that you know will result in the deliberate and unwarranted tormenting of one of your creations ALSO "partaking" in it?

Things that are significant to a child become less and less significant as they grow older. A child may cry that his favorite toy broke. Also a year to a child is feels like an eternity. As adults we don't care that our favorite toy broke back then and a year passes by pretty fast to us. The point is the way we perceive our world is relative to our age.

Ok... seriously... what the FUCK are you babbling about?

If we gain eternal life as was originally intended, the stuff we went through in our first 80 years or so will seem brief and insignificant. God also knows this and is planning accordingly.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the point I made.

Let me restate it: If God foreknows infallibly that his decision to create this exact universe would inescapably result in Job's unwarranted torment, how is it that you can claim god is not responsible? That he did not
"partake," as you put it?

NOTHING you posted came anywhere in the neighborhood of even acknowledging that you understood the question, let alone addressing the challenge posed by it.