God: A Mass Murderer?

[gimmewhitecastles]

Did Jesus not say "every jot and tiddle" of the old law was to be obeyed? In any case, the mosaic laws do not speak well of your "perfect" god. He gave explicit directions on how men could sell their daughters into slavery, how much people could charge for slaves, how hard they were allowed to beat their slaves, how they were to mark them as property (by driving a stake through their ear), etc. Even the "kindler gentler" new testament never condemns slavery. On the contrary..


Quote:
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. - Ephesians 6:5

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. - 1 Timothy 6:1-2

That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. - Luke 12:47

The passage in Ephesians was referring to earthly governments.
The passage in Timothy (and 1st Timothy in general) was referring to Christians working to serve the congregation.
And the passage Luke is an illustration not a law.
You have to read the full context of the scripture before taking it literally.

Fail. This was the tree of KNOWLEDGE. Before they ate the fruit, they had no knowledge of right and wrong, good or evil. Without knowledge of the concept of evil, they had no means of knowing their actions were evil..yet they were punished anyway. Think about this buddy..God is timeless and omniscient, which means he knows everything that will ever happen. He created a man with an inquisitive nature (knowing how he would respond to the magic tree). He then proceeded to create the tree, create the evil talking snake, allow the snake into the garden, then allow the "crime" to take place. Unless God is flawed and possesses imperfect knowledge, he knew the millisecond he finished creating Adam that this would happen..yet he chose to do it anyway, rather than erasing him and starting over. It's just like dropping your cat/dog, then punishing it for hitting the ground.

If you want to cling the assumption that God is omniscient, the only conclusion you can draw from the Adam story is that "the fall" (and subsequent punishment of BILLIONS of Adam's descendants) was part of the plan from the beginning.

Adam did know that if he ate the fruit that he would die.
Genesis 2:17 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So he chose to disobey knowing full well what the consequences were.
I've already explained before but starting over doesn't mean the same mistake won't happen again. He had to let the mistake run its full course to let everybody who was involved learn from it.

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

<sigh> :\

OF COURSE IT IS. That's the point I was making, moron. Isn't creating a universe that you know will result in the deliberate and unwarranted tormenting of one of your creations ALSO "partaking" in it?



Ok... seriously... what the FUCK are you babbling about?


This has absolutely nothing to do with the point I made.

Let me restate it: If God foreknows infallibly that his decision to create this exact universe would inescapably result in Job's unwarranted torment, how is it that you can claim god is not responsible? That he did not
"partake," as you put it?

NOTHING you posted came anywhere in the neighborhood of even acknowledging that you understood the question, let alone addressing the challenge posed by it.

Ok I think you misunderstood the original post. When I used "partake" in the original post, I meant God did not kill all of Job's livestock and children. It was the Devil who carried it out. So I was using the term in the context of that event.

As for the responsiblity argument, by your logic car manufactures are 100% responsible for the deaths and injuries caused by reckless individuals in vehicular related accidents because they know fully well that this statistic exists.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Ok I think you misunderstood the original post. When I used "partake" in the original post, I meant God did not kill all of Job's livestock and children. It was the Devil who carried it out. So I was using the term in the context of that event.

And in my example, the person who put the firecracker in the baby's hand did not blow the baby's fingers off. The firecracker "carried it out." Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

As for the responsiblity argument, by your logic car manufactures are 100% responsible for the deaths and injuries caused by reckless individuals in vehicular related accidents because they know fully well that this statistic exists.

<sigh> :\ My kingdom for a theist with an IQ greater than his shoe size...

Here's a newsflash, Poindexter: car manufacturers are held liable for manufacturing defects that they should've reasonably foreseen would cause problems. That's why they do recalls. More to the point, however, is the fact that car manufacturers are not infallible foreknowers who also created the universe with the infallible foreknowledge of exactly all that would happen as a consequence. You're comparing apples and trolley cars.

 

[Kirby]

True agnostics are intellectuals (like me)

I think this is the strongest argument for being a theist.

 

[gimmewhitecastles]

And in my example, the person who put the firecracker in the baby's hand did not blow the baby's fingers off. The firecracker "carried it out." Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?


<sigh> :\ My kingdom for a theist with an IQ greater than his shoe size...

Here's a newsflash, Poindexter: car manufacturers are held liable for manufacturing defects that they should've reasonably foreseen would cause problems. That's why they do recalls. More to the point, however, is the fact that car manufacturers are not infallible foreknowers who also created the universe with the infallible foreknowledge of exactly all that would happen as a consequence. You're comparing apples and trolley cars.

That's not the example I'm talking about.
What about for cases where there are no manufacturing defect. Just a plain old drunk driver. The manufacturers know that some of their cars might be used by these individuals. Are they liable then?

To correlate:
God created the earth and universe. The Devil wanted to drive it to the ground. He did drive it to the ground. God knew there was chance this will happen. In fact he knew it was inevitable because all unless there is precedent challenges will be made. But he did have a plan B to restore everything. The fact that he did issue a plan B means he is taking responsibilty for everything even though he didn't cause any of the calamities.

The final state after everything is restored will in effect be ultimately better off than if God constantly hit the reset button.

 

[totalnoob]

Can't watch from work but I recognize 4 of them. QualiaSoup and cdk especially make outstanding videos. Edward Current is decent, ZOMGitsCriss... 😀

Here's one more series I recommend. You'll probably find it very interesting given that you recently "deconverted" - http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3#g/c/A0C3C1D163BE880A 🙂

You can skip a few at the beginning. Just watch 2.1 - 3.0 when you find time.

 

[flexy]

The fundamental problem is looking AT THE BIBLE (or whatever other scriptures there are from whatever random religion) - and take what we read as a basis of our religion.

Truth is that many people over the ages might have written, interpreted and added to this "bible" simply because they have an AGENDA...mostly an evil one which has to do with power, intolerance etc..etc..

Not only that..."unconvenient" stuff was simply deleted or didnt make it in the bible in the first place.

The bible therefore is less a mirror of real teachings of a religion..but a collection of HIGHLY BIASED stuff which might have not the slightest to do with what the actual religion (once) was about...rather a tool for manipulation and oppression for the people in power.

The problem is that "hardcore religious people" take whats written in the bible as a fundament of their religion - instead of focusing on the true message.

 

[totalnoob]

You have to read the full context of the scripture before taking it literally.

The full context is that God commanded the Israelis to enslave their enemies and gave explicit instructions for how they were to go about it. The practice of slavery was never repudiated by god, anywhere in the bible, ever. Perhaps he should have removed one of the commandments related to his own vanity and jealousy and replaced it with something in there like "Thou shalt not own another human being."

 

[Ns1]

The fundamental problem is looking AT THE BIBLE (or whatever other scriptures there are from whatever random religion) - and take what we read as a basis of our religion.

Truth is that many people over the ages might have written, interpreted and added to this "bible" simply because they have an AGENDA...mostly an evil one which has to do with power, intolerance etc..etc..

Not only that..."unconvenient" stuff was simply deleted or didnt make it in the bible in the first place.

The bible therefore is less a mirror of real teachings of a religion..but a collection of HIGHLY BIASED stuff which might have not the slightest to do with what the actual religion (once) was about...rather a tool for manipulation and oppression for the people in power.

The problem is that "hardcore religious people" take whats written in the bible as a fundament of their religion - instead of focusing on the true message.

this x infinity

 

[IGBT]

it's His universe and we're all in play.. weather you believe or not.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

That's not the example I'm talking about.
What about for cases where there are no manufacturing defect. Just a plain old drunk driver. The manufacturers know that some of their cars might be used by these individuals. Are they liable then?

Did the auto manufacturers create the drivers? Did the auto manufacturers know with infallible certainty what the drivers would do once they were created? Is it possible that you fully lack the capacity to understand this distinction?

God knew there was chance this will happen.

WRONG. Unless you have some uncommon concept of God, then there was no mistaking -- God foreknew with infallible certainty what was going to happen after he created the universe. That makes him fully culpable for the consequences of his choice to move forward with that creation. EVERYTHING that has happened, is happening, and will happen is God's fault.

In fact he knew it was inevitable because all unless there is precedent challenges will be made. But he did have a plan B to restore everything. The fact that he did issue a plan B means he is taking responsibilty for everything even though he didn't cause any of the calamities.

Again, your puny theist brain is failing to grasp this simple concept. If you know the inevitable consequence of your choice to act, then you are the cause of those consequences.

The final state after everything is restored will in effect be ultimately better off than if God constantly hit the reset button.

Yeah, right. Promises, promises. 🙄

 

[JD50]

Are you saying that we only justify killing when someone is convicted of a crime?

How about you just make your point instead of playing some ridiculous little game?

 

[flexy]

WRONG. Unless you have some uncommon concept of God, then there was no mistaking -- God foreknew with infallible certainty what was going to happen after he created the universe.

something can not be right with that theory.

One time, he had to send a flood to destroy "his creation"....some other time people in certain cities (Sodom etc.) started to do weird things -so he decided to wipe them.

Doesnt look to me as if things went "as planned"

 

[sandorski]

something can not be right with that theory.

One time, he had to send a flood to destroy "his creation"....some other time people in certain cities (Sodom etc.) started to do weird things -so he decided to wipe them.

Doesnt look to me as if things went "as planned"

Since the Alleged God has shown Others the future, it would seem this Alleged God does know what will happen. You're just seeing one of the inconsistencies within the Bible.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

something can not be right with that theory.

One time, he had to send a flood to destroy "his creation"....some other time people in certain cities (Sodom etc.) started to do weird things -so he decided to wipe them.

Doesnt look to me as if things went "as planned"

No shit, Sherlock. Don't expect me to defend or reconcile these glaring inconsistencies in orthodox Christian doctrine. The fact remains that a creator who infallibly foreknew the totality of events which would inevitably result as consequences of his decision to create this universe is thereby culpable for those consequences.