GM slashes top salaries by up to 50%

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: iversonyin
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: JS80


Union pay is not market so you're the ignorant one.


Unions are in the market. They're part of the big picture, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Get used to it.

Let's say you're opening up a car manufacturing plant... you want to hire people for $15 an hour with no health benefits but your competitor down the road has a union shop and pays $18 an hour with full benefits. Who will the best candidates choose? You'll be left with scraps.

Yes, unions influence the market, but that's because they have much more bargaining power than any individual employee. If anything, they keep the businesses honest. Otherwise, you'd see management cutting the workers' pay while they give themselves raises.


No neccessarily. Unions are the thing of the past. They were form to protect factory workers from working in hazard envirnoment and being underpaid.

That being said, unions are no longer neccessary because it makes U.S. workers less compeitive global wise.

Your example is flaw because you assume that people that doesn't belong in union and being paid less = less skilled. If there is a short of labor supply, then of course the business that pay higher with benefit will attract the best workers. But if there is plenty of labor supply, your argurment becomes flaw.

So tell me how Honda, Toyota, and other profitable car manufacturers survive with non-unions scraps?

You're wrong on almost all counts.

1. Unions are definitely still needed because with business becoming more cutthroat than ever, you need someone to stand up for your rights as a worker. If you were on your own, the business would pull a fast one on you and you'd have little to no say in the matter. They could do you dirty and get away with it.

But when employees team up and unionize, their voice carries much more weight. Companies can't get away with the dirty tactics that they normally can, and they are held accountable for their actions. They can also hire better lawyers that can more effectively argue their rights in court.

2. I didn't say that people that are non union and paid less are less skilled. What I said is that a more experienced worker that is looking for a job will obviously go for the higher paying job, and he'd be in a better position to land that job than someone who has less experience.

3. You seem to be under the false impression that Honda and Toyota have no autoworker unions, and that it's just an American thing. They do have unions. They have unions both in the US and back in Japan. Obviously they don't need to survive with non-union scraps when they have unions.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: JS80


Union pay is not market so you're the ignorant one.


Unions are in the market. They're part of the big picture, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Get used to it.

Let's say you're opening up a car manufacturing plant... you want to hire people for $15 an hour with no health benefits but your competitor down the road has a union shop and pays $18 an hour with full benefits. Who will the best candidates choose? You'll be left with scraps.

Yes, unions influence the market, but that's because they have much more bargaining power than any individual employee. If anything, they keep the businesses honest. Otherwise, you'd see management cutting the workers' pay while they give themselves raises.

A better analogy is workers have a gun pointed at your head and they tell you what they should get paid.

But it's the inflexibility (i.e. you can't fire anyone) that makes it not market wage.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: JS80


Union pay is not market so you're the ignorant one.


Unions are in the market. They're part of the big picture, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Get used to it.

Let's say you're opening up a car manufacturing plant... you want to hire people for $15 an hour with no health benefits but your competitor down the road has a union shop and pays $18 an hour with full benefits. Who will the best candidates choose? You'll be left with scraps.

Yes, unions influence the market, but that's because they have much more bargaining power than any individual employee. If anything, they keep the businesses honest. Otherwise, you'd see management cutting the workers' pay while they give themselves raises.

A better analogy is workers have a gun pointed at your head and they tell you what they should get paid.

But it's the inflexibility (i.e. you can't fire anyone) that makes it not market wage.
Oooo, you know what else doesn't make it the market wage, shipping out a $100,000/yr job oversees to pay someone $5,000-$10,000/yr. And I ain't talking about an autoworker. I'm talking about a VERY well educated programmer. Let's quit defending big business. I think they can fend for themselves just fine. Now if you are a corp exec and you are b!tching about unions, I can understand, you want to buy another corporate jet for yourself. Well let me cry you a river.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: JS80


Union pay is not market so you're the ignorant one.


Unions are in the market. They're part of the big picture, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Get used to it.

Let's say you're opening up a car manufacturing plant... you want to hire people for $15 an hour with no health benefits but your competitor down the road has a union shop and pays $18 an hour with full benefits. Who will the best candidates choose? You'll be left with scraps.

Yes, unions influence the market, but that's because they have much more bargaining power than any individual employee. If anything, they keep the businesses honest. Otherwise, you'd see management cutting the workers' pay while they give themselves raises.

A better analogy is workers have a gun pointed at your head and they tell you what they should get paid.

But it's the inflexibility (i.e. you can't fire anyone) that makes it not market wage.
Oooo, you know what else doesn't make it the market wage, shipping out a $100,000/yr job oversees to pay someone $5,000-$10,000/yr. And I ain't talking about an autoworker. I'm talking about a VERY well educated programmer. Let's quit defending big business. I think they can fend for themselves just fine. Now if you are a corp exec and you are b!tching about unions, I can understand, you want to buy anther corprate jet for yourself. Well let me cry you a river.

How is that not market wage? $10k in India you live like a fvcking king. You guys are so short-sighted. Liberals never get the big picture.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: JS80


Union pay is not market so you're the ignorant one.


Unions are in the market. They're part of the big picture, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Get used to it.

Let's say you're opening up a car manufacturing plant... you want to hire people for $15 an hour with no health benefits but your competitor down the road has a union shop and pays $18 an hour with full benefits. Who will the best candidates choose? You'll be left with scraps.

Yes, unions influence the market, but that's because they have much more bargaining power than any individual employee. If anything, they keep the businesses honest. Otherwise, you'd see management cutting the workers' pay while they give themselves raises.

A better analogy is workers have a gun pointed at your head and they tell you what they should get paid.

But it's the inflexibility (i.e. you can't fire anyone) that makes it not market wage.
Oooo, you know what else doesn't make it the market wage, shipping out a $100,000/yr job oversees to pay someone $5,000-$10,000/yr. And I ain't talking about an autoworker. I'm talking about a VERY well educated programmer. Let's quit defending big business. I think they can fend for themselves just fine. Now if you are a corp exec and you are b!tching about unions, I can understand, you want to buy anther corprate jet for yourself. Well let me cry you a river.

How is that not market wage? $10k in India you live like a fvcking king.

Do you live in India? If so that is fvcking great! If not, not so great.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: JS80
How is that not market wage? $10k in India you live like a fvcking king. You guys are so short-sighted. Liberals never get the big picture.
You added that afterwards. Please explain my short sightedness. I'd REALLY like to hear this.

Just a hint: I already know your argument, but please go on. Humor me.
 

dartworth

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
15,200
10
81
German auto workers earn about 30 euros ($35.96) an hour in wages and benefits plus they only have a 35 hour work week.
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Originally posted by: dartworth
German auto workers earn about 30 euros ($35.96) an hour in wages and benefits plus they only have a 35 hour work week.


And the German economy is the pinnacle that all first world countries should strive to match match. :roll: You should also check the German cars for reliability and such.....Mercedes is only kept from being on the bottom by Range Rover.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: dartworth
German auto workers earn about 30 euros ($35.96) an hour in wages and benefits plus they only have a 35 hour work week.

That's why Germany's unemployment rate is 12.1% and firms don't hire new workers. The only saving grace for German automakers is that BMW and Mercedes sell like hotcakes. If the luxury car market declines, they're pretty much fvcked.
 

iversonyin

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2004
3,303
0
76
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: dartworth
German auto workers earn about 30 euros ($35.96) an hour in wages and benefits plus they only have a 35 hour work week.

That's why Germany's unemployment rate is 12.1% and firms don't hire new workers. The only saving grace for German automakers is that BMW and Mercedes sell like hotcakes. If the luxury car market declines, they're pretty much fvcked.


JS, ignorant is a bliss. These guys have 0 clue linking their stat and real world together
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: iversonyin
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: dartworth
German auto workers earn about 30 euros ($35.96) an hour in wages and benefits plus they only have a 35 hour work week.

That's why Germany's unemployment rate is 12.1% and firms don't hire new workers. The only saving grace for German automakers is that BMW and Mercedes sell like hotcakes. If the luxury car market declines, they're pretty much fvcked.


JS, ignorant is a bliss. These guys have 0 clue linking their stat and real world together

I suppose...but if I am able to show the light to just one person, my job is done. I noticed there are certain people that just think a certain way and can't see beyond one layer of a scenario. These are people who don't understand globalization and believe corporations are evil.
 

iversonyin

Diamond Member
Aug 12, 2004
3,303
0
76
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: iversonyin
Originally posted by: 91TTZ
Originally posted by: JS80


Union pay is not market so you're the ignorant one.


Unions are in the market. They're part of the big picture, and aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Get used to it.

Let's say you're opening up a car manufacturing plant... you want to hire people for $15 an hour with no health benefits but your competitor down the road has a union shop and pays $18 an hour with full benefits. Who will the best candidates choose? You'll be left with scraps.

Yes, unions influence the market, but that's because they have much more bargaining power than any individual employee. If anything, they keep the businesses honest. Otherwise, you'd see management cutting the workers' pay while they give themselves raises.


No neccessarily. Unions are the thing of the past. They were form to protect factory workers from working in hazard envirnoment and being underpaid.

That being said, unions are no longer neccessary because it makes U.S. workers less compeitive global wise.

Your example is flaw because you assume that people that doesn't belong in union and being paid less = less skilled. If there is a short of labor supply, then of course the business that pay higher with benefit will attract the best workers. But if there is plenty of labor supply, your argurment becomes flaw.

So tell me how Honda, Toyota, and other profitable car manufacturers survive with non-unions scraps?

You're wrong on almost all counts.

1. Unions are definitely still needed because with business becoming more cutthroat than ever, you need someone to stand up for your rights as a worker. If you were on your own, the business would pull a fast one on you and you'd have little to no say in the matter. They could do you dirty and get away with it.

But when employees team up and unionize, their voice carries much more weight. Companies can't get away with the dirty tactics that they normally can, and they are held accountable for their actions. They can also hire better lawyers that can more effectively argue their rights in court.

2. I didn't say that people that are non union and paid less are less skilled. What I said is that a more experienced worker that is looking for a job will obviously go for the higher paying job, and he'd be in a better position to land that job than someone who has less experience.

3. You seem to be under the false impression that Honda and Toyota have no autoworker unions, and that it's just an American thing. They do have unions. They have unions both in the US and back in Japan. Obviously they don't need to survive with non-union scraps when they have unions.


1. Unions are keeping the business cost high. (ei: GM) and U.S. employment force less compeitive cost wise. There are plenty of labor laws that passed since unions were formed to protect U.S. workers. Unions are no longer useful to this day economy. Bargaining is for company that doesnt give out fair wage. When you have minimum wage standard and plenty of companies to work for with compeitive wages, whats the point of union? Companies use dirty tactics and unions don't? (ei: Transit worker strike in NY- asking for 8% raise- UNREASONABLE - their avg pay is $50k + benny).

2. Completely agree. But the higher paying jobs don't unneccessarily need to be unionized, no? Plenty of good paying jobs that don't require unions.

3. The unions member seem to be less demand than those in GMs. I do know they have UAW workers as well.

You have to understand, in order for GM to compete world wide, they need these UAW to give in. GM need to be compeitive cost wise and the only way to do that is auto workers become compeitive cost wise. Keep bargaining for higher wage and pension plan and GM will go down the drain.

 

dartworth

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
15,200
10
81
Interesting read:

Desperation Deal at GM
by Robert Kuttner

The United Autoworkers union has agreed to save General Motors over a billion dollars a year in health insurance costs. This is a disguised pay-cut, since workers will now pay more out of pocket for their healthcare.

The union agreed to this desperation deal to help keep GM alive. The once-dominant auto-maker posted a record $1.1 billion loss in the third quarter; and its former parts division, Delphi, with 34,000 union jobs, has just gone into bankruptcy. If and when it emerges, Delphi's $26-an-hour workers will be cut to something like $12. That gets your attention.

The union leadership was so eager to help GM survive that the UAW filed an unusual suit intended to block its own union retirees from challenging the negotiated health-benefit cuts. Now Ford has just reported a $284 million third-quarter loss, and wants the same kind of deal the UAW gave GM.

Even with these concessions, the industry that once was the core of America's blue-collar middle class is continuing its downward spiral, cutting jobs and cutting the pay and benefits of the workers that remain. General Motors, which a generation ago had about half a million union workers, will soon be down to 84,000.

But it would be a mistake to conclude that high wages or excess health benefits are bankrupting US industry. Look at our competitors. Japanese labor costs in the auto industry are comparable to American ones and German wages are far higher.

There are, however, two offsetting differences. First, the Japanese and Germans are ahead technologically and have a knack for making reliable cars that consumers want to buy. Second, their healthcare is financed socially.

So GM's biggest problem is not labor costs; it's that except for its profitable SUVs (which are becoming white elephants as gas prices rise), too few consumers are buying GM's products. When management makes dumb decisions about design, quality, or marketing, autoworkers end up paying the price.

GM spends also $5.6 billion a year on healthcare -- more than it spends on steel. Its foreign competitors spend nothing on healthcare. So GM and the UAW are common victims of America's failure to have national health insurance.

The UAW, to its credit, has advocated national health insurance since the days of its first president, Walter Reuther. General Motors, like the rest of American big business, has fiercely resisted it -- preferring to bear billions in expenses to having a national policy it considers socialistic. But it would be another mistake to conclude that autoworkers have had too good a deal on health insurance. The reality is that most Americans have had too bad a deal.

Somehow, the rest of the industrial world can provide health coverage for everyone, and only spend an average of about 10 percent of its national income, while we spend 14 percent and leave over 44 million people without health insurance.

How is that possible? Simple: we squander hundreds of billions of dollars processing claims, having dozens of competing insurers spend a fortune on marketing, paying HMO reviewers to second-guess physicians, evaluating who is ''insurable," and otherwise wasting about 30 cents on every premium dollar paying middlemen who provide no healthcare.

And we overpay dearly for treatment in emergency rooms, where tens of millions of poor people go when they get really sick, having been unable to afford cheaper and more cost-effective routine care. Other nations spend more efficiently on preventive care, because everyone can afford to see the doctor.

Here is one good idea, proposed by environmental activists Michael Shellenberger and Ted Nordhaus, and sponsored by Senator Barack Obama of Illinois as the Competitiveness and Accountability Act. Congress would offer automakers the following deal: If they invest substantially in fuel-efficient technology, Congress will relieve them of the health insurance burden of their retirees.

Isn't this a bailout? As Shellenberger and Nordhaus observe, after 9/11, Congress bailed out the airlines and asked nothing in return. This proposed subsidy would insist, in return, that auto-makers help themselves, their workers and consumers -- by building more competitive and fuel-efficient cars. A bankruptcy is also a bailout -- investors and workers bail out failing management.

If we could think more creatively, we wouldn't have to choose between saving the auto industry and having decent health coverage for its workers -- and everyone.

© Copyright 2005 Boston Globe
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: JS80
I suppose...but if I am able to show the light to just one person, my job is done. I noticed there are certain people that just think a certain way and can't see beyond one layer of a scenario. These are people who don't understand globalization and believe corporations are evil.

Hey, I'm still waiting for you to humor me...
 

tec699

Banned
Dec 19, 2002
6,440
0
0
I have to partially agree with Gatsby. Why should a high school hick make $50 an hour putting on mud flaps? It's insane. They should be getting paid minimum wage!


On the other hand can anyone survive on $6 an hour anymore?
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
9
0
Originally posted by: tec699
I have to partially agree with Gatsby. Why should a high school hick make $50 an hour putting on mud flaps? It's insane. They should be getting paid minimum wage!


On the other hand can anyone survive on $6 an hour anymore?


Who makes $50 a hour? Try around $18 to start and that is in a hot room for 12 hours straight. The UAW workers make right around the same amount per hour as does a toyota, honda, etc... worker in the US. That is how they have been able to keep unions away. Take care of your employees and they will not revolt. Toyota and other makers already know this, hence no unions.

 

JLGatsby

Banned
Sep 6, 2005
4,525
0
0
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
Most of you have no idea how right on JLGatsby is. I have worked for <insert one of the old big 3 here> for the past 6 years in Manufacturing, including production supervision.

First off I will point out a few things that many of you will be shocked to hear.

Every single day at every UAW plant, there is about a 20-25% absenteeism rate. What exactly does that mean? Well simply each plant must carry a workforce 20-25% larger than they are required to run. This also translates into the first hour of production being VERY low while each line supervisor figures out who is missing for the day and calls for one of the people in the ?reserve? pool. Now to the crazy part, sure they do not get paid when they skip work, however their benefits are not cut, so right off the bat the entire company is paying for 25% more cost of health care, life insurance, and all other benefits the company offers. Now, say one day you only get 15% of the people in the plant not showing up for work (in a large plant with 2000 workers, you can have 300-500 people skip work in one day) you are carrying around 150 extra people that are sitting around doing nothing. What does this translate into? People getting paid $28 dollars an hour with benefits to mop a clean floor, or cut the grass outside, or simply take a nap.

Punish these people you say? Sure! However, the UAW contract states that if they bring in proof that they were late or weren?t able to show up for due to a dr. appointment, then they can?t get into trouble. And with how good the health insurance is, it doesn?t cost a dime to get a doctors note that says you had a cough. Any number of excuses can be used here. Besides, even if they are too lazy to get an excuse, nothing can happen to the worker until they are written up 7 times. Oh, and you better not dare write anyone up, because they will make your line run slower when they show up for work next time and you will not make the production numbers you need.

Did I say I was a Production Supervisor? I meant I was a Manufacturing Advisor because if I ever said I was a supervisor, the UAW would have me thrown out of the plant for stepping over my line of duty because no one supervises the UAW, we can only suggest what we think would be the best option. If they don?t agree, then they don?t do it.

I have been flat out told to my face the following words from the people I was the ?supervisor? for: ?I?m not doing a f**ing thing you say, you are too young. Get me the committeeman.?

That is just the hourly line workers, the skilled *laugh* trades are even more ridiculous. There is a skilled trades person for each type of job. If you have a mechanical failure and the guy starts fixing it and an electrical connection is in his way, he will refuse to unplug it even if it is just a simple connector. The reason is if an electrician finds out he unplugged it, he will get written up for taking someone else?s job. So the line sits down, idling up to 70-100 workers for 15-45 minutes at $28 an hour while we wait for an electrician to show up and unplug a connector that takes less than 2 seconds.

Now say a Plant goes from 2 shifts down to 1 shift because no one is buying the cars. Each one of those people on the 2nd shift now get paid 90% of their salary as long as they show up in the morning. From that point a few may be asked to grab a mob bucket and clean while the rest browse the computer in the learning center.

Believe me when I say the UAW is a disease. What I have said above isn?t even the ½ of it.

:thumbsup: You're the man Cattlegod.

MIKEMIKE = pwned again.
 

Questionmark

Banned
Nov 14, 2005
75
0
0
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: Ronstang
It is important for GM to punish the executives that have led GM to the brink of disater so that the unions have no bitching point on the cuts that will face them for their part of this mess.

Shut it, the only people that need their salaries cut are the fat, overpaid, factory workers.

Some hick with barely a high school education screwing on mudflaps for $40 an hour in the name of "keeping the traditional middle class alive" is bullcrap.


Oooo! good point! if anything we need to throw the Unions out the window. Because the unions rape these companies for money and benifits, the companies have no choice but to move production outside the country. The unions got alot of good done, but now they are sucking jobs out of the country. Piss on the Unions!
 

ahurtt

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
4,283
0
0
50% paycut and he still probably makes 25x more than the average GM worker. . .why only 50%?
 

JLGatsby

Banned
Sep 6, 2005
4,525
0
0
Originally posted by: ahurtt
50% paycut and he still probably makes 25x more than the average GM worker. . .why only 50%?

He is in charge of running a $12billion company, shouldn't he atleast be paid a decent salary?

Would you want some dolt who only makes a few hundred thousand a year responsible for 320,000 workers?

Take off your jealousy colored glasses. It isn't the factory workers who are going to save GM, it's a CEO, and you better make it worth his wild if you want him to work at his best or hire someone worth a $30 million a year salary, there are many many people out there worth every penny of that.
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: ahurtt
50% paycut and he still probably makes 25x more than the average GM worker. . .why only 50%?

He is in charge of running a $12billion company, shouldn't he atleast be paid a decent salary?

Would you want some dolt who only makes a few hundred thousand a year responsible for 320,000 workers?

Take off your jealousy colored glasses. It isn't the factory workers who are going to save GM, it's a CEO, and you better make it worth his wild if you want him to work at his best or hire someone worth a $30 million a year salary, there are many many people out there worth every penny of that.

Absolutely, though I would never want to actually put hard limits on salaries. People can make what they can make, that's fine...doesn't mean I won't think they're overpaid though.

In my experience CEO's are lying, worthless, self-centered bastards that exploit the population for personal gain. Not that all are of course, just the few that I've known. In my opinion people should get paid based on what they do and how hard they work. If you're risking your life, working 100 hours a week, inventing the cure for cancer...then you deserve to make a lot of money. Otherwise, piss off and accept a living wage and learn to be happy in life.
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
0
0
Originally posted by: Qosis
Originally posted by: TGS
Originally posted by: Qosis
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: Ronstang
It is important for GM to punish the executives that have led GM to the brink of disater so that the unions have no bitching point on the cuts that will face them for their part of this mess.

Shut it, the only people that need their salaries cut are the fat, overpaid, factory workers.

Some hick with barely a high school education screwing on mudflaps for $40 an hour in the name of "keeping the traditional middle class alive" is bullcrap.

JLGastby, I think you are one of the biggest douchebags on this forum. But I've never agreed more with you, or likely anyone else on this forum. The people who work at GM are overpaid, on every level. From management down to the floor. The people on the floor deserve no more than $10-$12 per hour. It's not rocket science, really.

Hiring people to farm internet game gold, has given the youth such insight into modern business.

Take a look at my edit.

At least I made profit, it's a claim that GM can't make.

If you don't think that differing cost structures are largely, if not completely, responsible for disparities between competing auto makers you are misguided. Wages are not the only component of employee costs, and in the case of GM they seem to be of relatively minimal concern.


I'm certain you were paying your "farmers" a fair wage, with health benefits and a retirement plan as well? :)

I'm glad that you think factory workers should be paid close to minimum wage. If the market demands they be paid more who cares, that's the rate the market sets. Now if corporations are trying to stay afloat with health care and retirements being their chief concerns, that's a problem they created. If they didn't offer these benefits the workers would have moved on to other companies, most likely a direct competitor. Almost all corporations like to dangle such incentives, in order to get the attention of prospective employees. It's part of the way business works. The market sets a rough salary cap on positions, and it's up to employeers to offer the benefits to get the workers, who possess the skillsets for particular openings.
 

SLU MD

Senior member
Aug 14, 2003
471
0
0
Yep, and the fat overpaid ceo's

Some idiot sitting there, coozing up to politicians, and smoking cigars and his secretary..or misses gives him a hummer under the desk is bullcrap.

my dad is the CEO of his company. took him many years to move up the corporate ladder including 80-100 work weeks my whole life. He still works 60 hrs a week and travels at least 1-2 nights per week.

you are a moron.

 

Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
Originally posted by: JLGatsby
Originally posted by: Cattlegod
Most of you have no idea how right on JLGatsby is. I have worked for <insert one of the old big 3 here> for the past 6 years in Manufacturing, including production supervision.

First off I will point out a few things that many of you will be shocked to hear.

Every single day at every UAW plant, there is about a 20-25% absenteeism rate. What exactly does that mean? Well simply each plant must carry a workforce 20-25% larger than they are required to run. This also translates into the first hour of production being VERY low while each line supervisor figures out who is missing for the day and calls for one of the people in the ?reserve? pool. Now to the crazy part, sure they do not get paid when they skip work, however their benefits are not cut, so right off the bat the entire company is paying for 25% more cost of health care, life insurance, and all other benefits the company offers. Now, say one day you only get 15% of the people in the plant not showing up for work (in a large plant with 2000 workers, you can have 300-500 people skip work in one day) you are carrying around 150 extra people that are sitting around doing nothing. What does this translate into? People getting paid $28 dollars an hour with benefits to mop a clean floor, or cut the grass outside, or simply take a nap.

Punish these people you say? Sure! However, the UAW contract states that if they bring in proof that they were late or weren?t able to show up for due to a dr. appointment, then they can?t get into trouble. And with how good the health insurance is, it doesn?t cost a dime to get a doctors note that says you had a cough. Any number of excuses can be used here. Besides, even if they are too lazy to get an excuse, nothing can happen to the worker until they are written up 7 times. Oh, and you better not dare write anyone up, because they will make your line run slower when they show up for work next time and you will not make the production numbers you need.

Did I say I was a Production Supervisor? I meant I was a Manufacturing Advisor because if I ever said I was a supervisor, the UAW would have me thrown out of the plant for stepping over my line of duty because no one supervises the UAW, we can only suggest what we think would be the best option. If they don?t agree, then they don?t do it.

I have been flat out told to my face the following words from the people I was the ?supervisor? for: ?I?m not doing a f**ing thing you say, you are too young. Get me the committeeman.?

That is just the hourly line workers, the skilled *laugh* trades are even more ridiculous. There is a skilled trades person for each type of job. If you have a mechanical failure and the guy starts fixing it and an electrical connection is in his way, he will refuse to unplug it even if it is just a simple connector. The reason is if an electrician finds out he unplugged it, he will get written up for taking someone else?s job. So the line sits down, idling up to 70-100 workers for 15-45 minutes at $28 an hour while we wait for an electrician to show up and unplug a connector that takes less than 2 seconds.

Now say a Plant goes from 2 shifts down to 1 shift because no one is buying the cars. Each one of those people on the 2nd shift now get paid 90% of their salary as long as they show up in the morning. From that point a few may be asked to grab a mob bucket and clean while the rest browse the computer in the learning center.

Believe me when I say the UAW is a disease. What I have said above isn?t even the ½ of it.

:thumbsup: You're the man Cattlegod.

MIKEMIKE = pwned again.

What a bunch of crap. Absenteeism must be below 2% for a quarter at my plant or a more stringent policy comes into effect. There are no excuses for absenteeism. You are allowed 5 personal days per year. Now if you are talking about management pre-approved vacation days then I don't see your point.

Disobeying a direct order is grounds for dismissal. If a supervisor cannot command respect in the union environment then maybe they shouldn't be a supervisor. The supervisor has all the ammunition in a test of wills. If you lose that fight then you need to rethink your career choice.

I'm a skilled tradesman and I've done plenty of jobs that weren't necessarily in my classification, but if I pull a plug that is in my way and it somehow causes some unforeseen machine downtime I'm sure you'd be the first to write me up for working out of my classification.

Yes, I've seen abuses by union members, but I've also seen such behavior when I've worked at non-union shops.

I don't know where you're working at, but I've worked for 27 years as a union die maker and I'll take any challenge from any competition to out perform me.