Glutamine

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Thanks dodging the question I asked and yet calling me out before.

I use supplements based on my experience with them...I try them based on 'extensive research'...I try them based on 'Y0 f00 yous Trollin!' too sometimes.

glad to see you went back to the glutamine argument though...personally I think it works for me...if it really doesn't it's so cheap I don't really care.

If you wanna see my lifts, check out my journal. It's not relevant to this thread. I wasn't seriously saying that I deserve more credibility due to my performance levels and that's why I didn't answer the question. My journal has a new post in it almost every other day so you can see what I lift regularly.

Also, since supplementing one amino acid has been shown to have a negative affect on the absorption of other amino acids, glutamine can actually have more cons than pros. Keep that in mind.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
The run of the mill nutrition tract doesn't really have any 'performance' info unless you specialize.

Since many of the studies, especially those regarding protein consumption, are performed on athletes of all levels, I think their conclusions are very applicable.

Originally posted by: alkemyst
What did your 'elite athlete' friends do for sport? What was their diet?

Several D1 ice hockey players (who are in the NHL now) and several track & field athletes. Back in those days, I was into bodybuilding and spent some time picking their brains about what they ate, supplements and the like. They certainly ate a lot - you need tons of calories for 4+ hours of daily training - but that was really about it. Like your evidence, it's completely anecdotal, but these athletes were successful at very high levels without massive amounts of protein, supplementation, drugs, etc. But again, I only brought it up to show you that anecdotal evidence is NOT terribly useful: it's possible that they would've done even better with more protein or supplements. Likewise, it's possible you would've done just as well (or better) without them. Without a proper study setup to minimize all external variables, it's impossible to say.

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Thanks for letting us know you are going off other's conclusions though. I have made my own conclusions.

Yes, my conclusions are based on a number of peer reviewed scientific studies. They are far from perfect and could certainly be wrong, but I find their evidence much more compelling than the biased (unintentionally or intentionally), unscientific, and unreproducible opinions of some random guy at the gym or an online forum.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Also, since supplementing one amino acid has been shown to have a negative affect on the absorption of other amino acids, glutamine can actually have more cons than pros. Keep that in mind.

thanks for letting me know You will have a different outlook on your post here in 10 years.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: alkemyst
The run of the mill nutrition tract doesn't really have any 'performance' info unless you specialize.

Since many of the studies, especially those regarding protein consumption, are performed on athletes of all levels, I think their conclusions are very applicable.

Originally posted by: alkemyst
What did your 'elite athlete' friends do for sport? What was their diet?

Several D1 ice hockey players (who are in the NHL now) and several track & field athletes. Back in those days, I was into bodybuilding and spent some time picking their brains about what they ate, supplements and the like. They certainly ate a lot - you need tons of calories for 4+ hours of daily training - but that was really about it. Like your evidence, it's completely anecdotal, but these athletes were successful at very high levels without massive amounts of protein, supplementation, drugs, etc. But again, I only brought it up to show you that anecdotal evidence is NOT terribly useful: it's possible that they would've done even better with more protein or supplements. Likewise, it's possible you would've done just as well (or better) without them. Without a proper study setup to minimize all external variables, it's impossible to say.

Originally posted by: alkemyst
Thanks for letting us know you are going off other's conclusions though. I have made my own conclusions.

Yes, my conclusions are based on a number of peer reviewed scientific studies. They are far from perfect and could certainly be wrong, but I find their evidence much more compelling than the biased (unintentionally or intentionally), unscientific, and unreproducible opinions of some random guy at the gym or an online forum.

please don't post on your 'friends' laurels anymore...

if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't keep bringing up friends we all know you would not be there for every meal, pill, drink for.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
please don't post on your 'friends' laurels anymore...

if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't keep bringing up friends we all know you would not be there for every meal, pill, drink for.

Ok buddy, continue on with your trolling. You clearly have it all figured out and I'm sure everyone reading this is now fully convinced, thanks to you, that stuffing your body with huge quantities of supplements and random drugs is the way to go.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Also, since supplementing one amino acid has been shown to have a negative affect on the absorption of other amino acids, glutamine can actually have more cons than pros. Keep that in mind.

thanks for letting me know You will have a different outlook on your post here in 10 years.

Lol, no, no I won't. That one has been proven in all individuals. Amino acids share transmembrane transporter proteins. When one amino acids saturates that, the others are unable to bind. I won't have a different outlook at any point.

It seems you have gone back to just saying that nobody knows what they're talking about... the nutritionist, the exercise biologist/athlete, and the avid crossfitter who reads and experiences fitness first hand. We clearly know nothing from our books and our research articles and our personal experience.

 

[allies]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Kipper

Originally posted by: alkemyst

didn't ask about PhD...are you a scientist...like have you had more than just Bio and Chem 101?

Most have no idea what being an athlete is about...hell many see acrobatics and think it's CG or done with strings.

The biochemistry of an elite athlete is very different than a gamer who maybe walks a total of 5 miles in a week and lives off Ballz and Chipotle. Are they RADICALLY different? I don't know what the qualifiers are in your opinion....but one is a hell of a lot more efficient and gets far more utilization out of their foods.

Clearly, your definition of "scientist" is different from mine. But I have had a fair amount of graduate-level class work, particularly in this area (nutrition & foods).

The biochemistry of an elite athlete MAY be "different" in the sense that things are happening more rapidly and to a greater degree (e.g. metabolism, protein turnover, etc.) but that doesn't mean that the major rules are any different than they are for "regular" people. Blood glucose cannot be out of control or you get diabetes. Insulin still drives nutrients into cells. Various hormones still do whatever they do.

Look at it this way: the gamer is a Civic, and an elite athlete is a Hummer. They burn gas at different rates, but when you boil it down they both run off of gas, they essentially have the same type of engineering put into them, but one uses much less gas than the other and might have a nicer interior.

nutrition and foods as nothing to do with how they affect athletes.

Again like the other guy you can believe what you want if it makes you feel you are no different than an athlete and know what it's like since you can read about being one.

I have both a science background, have studied nutrition, and used to train 3-4 hours a day at a minimum. I played football, wrestling, competed in martial arts, ran, and did heavy weight lifting for over a decade. Since then I tapered down to 3-4 days a week of running/lifting. My needs now are far different than they were then.

Nutrition goes hand in hand with the human body sir.

 

[allies]

Here's some anecdotal evidence - I was taking 20 hours of classes a week, working 25 hours a week, and I trained for a marathon. Guess what - I ran it in 2:45. You know what I was supplementing with? After my 20 mile training runs, I'd mix .5g of glutamine in my OJ (to ensure my immune system wouldn't take a hit). I didn't supplement with ANYTHING else. I did eat 4 meals a day (breakfast, lunch, dinner, late dinner after work) and snacks in between. I reckon I was consuming 3-4k calories a day.

PS - My mom has worked with olympic (read: elite) athletes and she doesn't recommend anything more than 1 g protein/kg of body weight. You know why? Because EVERYTHING points towards anything above that is completely unnecessary. But alky, you can go on living with what you think is right, since it obviously makes you happy. And it also makes the supplement companies happy.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: alkemyst
please don't post on your 'friends' laurels anymore...

if you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't keep bringing up friends we all know you would not be there for every meal, pill, drink for.

Ok buddy, continue on with your trolling. You clearly have it all figured out and I'm sure everyone reading this is now fully convinced, thanks to you, that stuffing your body with huge quantities of supplements and random drugs is the way to go.

never said that son.

However, your take that they are worthless is extremely wrong.

The casual lifter would see some benefit from creatine, a good round of vitamins and just eating right. I really like the way creatine makes me feel lifting.

At that point one then just needs to take gains. If they start slowing down too much or they are feeling too worn down between lifting days then they can start planning on what will help them train better.

A lot of the shit out there does nothing...even if 5 time all american blah blah blah is swearing by it. A lot of the shit that works really good for one person may not work for you...a different brand may help or not.

These are my points. It's been what I have EXPERIENCED for myself as well.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Also, since supplementing one amino acid has been shown to have a negative affect on the absorption of other amino acids, glutamine can actually have more cons than pros. Keep that in mind.

thanks for letting me know You will have a different outlook on your post here in 10 years.

Lol, no, no I won't. That one has been proven in all individuals. Amino acids share transmembrane transporter proteins. When one amino acids saturates that, the others are unable to bind. I won't have a different outlook at any point.

It seems you have gone back to just saying that nobody knows what they're talking about... the nutritionist, the exercise biologist/athlete, and the avid crossfitter who reads and experiences fitness first hand. We clearly know nothing from our books and our research articles and our personal experience.

dude you are 20 right. You are the one arguing with someone that's been lifting longer than your were alive. You are probably the only one out of the above that has any real EXPERIENCE so that goes a long way in my eyes of someone just spouting off what they read.

Again the point is I personally feel glutamine works well for me post-workout in my shake when I am training hard. If I am doing basic lifting and not training hard I really get no benefit even from eating as good.

When I push myself hard the supplements I take make be feel better, help me gain muscle faster/have more endurance, I sleep better and my recovery is quicker.

Those are my points. To those just being nutrition people they are usually learning what works well for the masses and the masses aren't power lifters, marathon runners, or acrobats. They could specialize sure, but most don't. My point to them is the athlete's body works very differently than someone that isn't doing a high level of activity and it's far outside just what different calories account for.

I think you and I are on the same page on that. The other dudes I don't think have set foot in a gym except on student orientation day.

 

[The Sauce]

Well, I am going to say that I got exactly 0 good informations on glutamine out of this discussion. Oh well.

 

[allies]

If you read through it, there's plenty of info - basically it boils down to: don't take it unless you think you're pushing yourself hard enough that you think you'll have a negative impact on your immune system, as glutamine *may* decrease the negative hit on your immune system.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: The Sauce
Well, I am going to say that I got exactly 0 good informations on glutamine out of this discussion. Oh well.

What are to doing post-workout? That's going to be the key. I used to down a dextrose, protein powder, glutamine concoction and it was tasty and I felt better the next day once I started doing them.

I can't remember the dextrose amount, but I took whatever the recommended glutamine was and whatever the serving of Optimum Whey was. I don't really get into 'sweets' but when you are eating right a shake like this felt like a dessert. The trick is to nail it down right after the workout though...if you wait too long it doesn't work the same.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: The Sauce
Well, I am going to say that I got exactly 0 good informations on glutamine out of this discussion. Oh well.

Well, pretty much we discussed how glutamine has been shown to have no real benefits in research. Also in research, like I've said multiple times, supplementing one amino acid (like glutamine) can negatively affect absorption of other amino acids. I think those two pieces of information are fairly helpful in deciding to use glutamine or not.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Okay so I have recently been taking a physiological psychology class. It often talks about the anatomy of the brain and the physiology/mechanisms of certain phenomena. We often talk of hormones and their effects on the body. Recently we discussed how dietary factors can significantly modify neurotransmitter production.

As amino acids are digested, they are transported into the bloodstream. They reach the blood-brain barrier and are transported across via astrocytes and some other transmembrane proteins (methinks). Supplementation of amino acids has shown to significantly modify transport of amino acids and production of neurotransmitters. Do you know what glutamine is? It's one amino group different from glutamic acid, the most dominant excitatory neurotransmitter in the forebrain. You could be doing your brain a severe discourtesy by doing things like this.

Extra excitatory action can induce things like stimulants do (ie anxiety, panic attacks, hypomania/mania which is part of bipolar disorder). Don't supplement glutamine in itself. It has no real competition at the brain level and can have a severe effect on the brain. And for what? Some hearsay advantage to physical betterment? Mind is just as important as body and it seems to me that the con's especially outweigh the pro's.

Please, consider the above when thinking about supplementing a single amino acid. It can have drastic repercussions in your body that are totally unrelated to your intentions.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged

Lulz. I can honestly use the same argument. I have competed in sports all my life (track, cross country, soccer, water polo, basketball), am finishing my bachelor's in exercise biology this year with an emphasis on nutrition (and a psych minor, heyo!). Along with that, I performed at high levels as a sprinter and currently am approaching numbers to be fairly competitive in the powerlifting community. I still believe the research because it can be easily reproduced. Sometimes there are other variables that modify the application in the real world, yes, but that doesn't mean the research isn't right (if valid and consistently repeatable).

Plus, you seem not to be THAT experienced if you trained for 3-4 hours a day. Quality, not quantity matters. I could workout 6 hours a day, but would that make my argument more compelling? No, not exactly.

so WTF are you trying to say? Supplements are worthless? Protein is worthless? That an athlete's needs are the same as the guy sitting on the couch just that he needs some more calories?

seriously...

btw what's your BW and big three? I don't think I have seen you mention that ever.

The supplements that have been proven via research are great. Whey protein and creatine have been proven in the lab and in the gym time and time again. I use them because of the extensive research though. An athlete's needs for protein is much greater than a gamer due to a large need for muscle repair. However, glutamine has been proven over and over not to help stuff like this.

Mmm. I pulled and read most of the available literature on glutamine. I agree that the data is not good, but that does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that all benefit has been disproven. It just says "we don't know yet." The studies were all small "n", poorly designed and generally unconvincing. I would say that, at best, the jury is still out but no proven benefit, yet.

 

[Kipper]

Would you care to elaborate on these "problems" with the studies? Your objections to the studies are incredibly vague, (and quite common) at best.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: The Sauce
Mmm. I pulled and read most of the available literature on glutamine. I agree that the data is not good, but that does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that all benefit has been disproven. It just says "we don't know yet." The studies were all small "n", poorly designed and generally unconvincing. I would say that, at best, the jury is still out but no proven benefit, yet.

If you'd like to look at my most recent post, it has been shown that neurotransmitter production can be affected by skew of amino acids that come into the body. If you severely shift the balance via supplementation, you can change your hormonal balance.

Do you know what hormonal balance does? It's the genetic component responsible for susceptibility to anxiety disorder, panic attacks, panic disorder, bipolar disorder, and I'm sure there are more. Look into something called excitotoxicity. Too much excitatory neurotransmitters in the brain naturally results in Huntington's disease. Do you really wanna to even get close to inducing that?

If you feel the other data is "unconvincing," you should read into this. It has been reproduced over and over again and makes inherent sense since amino acids are transported into the brain via transporters (proteins and astrocytes if I'm not mistaken).

 

[Blintok]

I have been using L-Glutamine for over 10yrs and swear by it. I take it not so much for muscle building but as a preventative
to getting sick. It seems like it really does enhance your immune system. Back before i discovered Glutamine it used to drive me batty that every
time i started training really hard i ALWAYS got a cold. I learned that hard workouts deplete your glutamine stores and that it is used by
the immune system. "Precursor for rapidly dividing immune cells, thus aiding in immune function" (wikipedia)

Seriously, since i have been taking this i very rarely get sick. (colds) when i do feel a cold coming on i increase the amount i take and the cold goes away.
i usually end up getting what i call, quarter colds. A colds symptoms and duration is 75% less of what it would have been without the supplement.

placebo effect? maybe. but i dont think so. i do not need to take tons of it either. a 400g container lasts me 1year. I take ~ 1-2grams per day.