Glutamine

[The Sauce]

I have been using glutamine for about 4 months now as a workout supplement mixed in with my drinks. I have done a brief scientific literature review and nothing convincing out there scientifically to support it for weight-lifting that I could find.

Anyone use it? Love it? Hate it? Waste of money? Anecdotes welcome.

 

[StageLeft]

nothing convincing out there scientifically to support it for weight-lifting that I could find

That's why I don't bother. Most of these supplements are as useful as tits on a bull, so unless there is clear proof/indication that they help, you're simply flushing money in the toilet, or worse, since your body has to assimilate everything it takes in. How do you know such an addition is even safe?

Anecdotes are fun, but no replacement for real data. Apparently a very well reputed Japanese runner used to take the regurgitate from wasps (like honey, but from a wasp, though I didn't even know they made much "regurgitate!"). This person swore by it, but should you take it?

 

[dealmaster00]

never heard of it.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

nothing convincing out there scientifically to support it for weight-lifting that I could find

That's why I don't bother. Most of these supplements are as useful as tits on a bull, so unless there is clear proof/indication that they help, you're simply flushing money in the toilet, or worse, since your body has to assimilate everything it takes in. How do you know such an addition is even safe?

Anecdotes are fun, but no replacement for real data. Apparently a very well reputed Japanese runner used to take the regurgitate from wasps (like honey, but from a wasp, though I didn't even know they made much "regurgitate!"). This person swore by it, but should you take it?

:thumbsup:

I think that supplements are, generally, very much like baseball at-bat rituals. Does adjusting your batting gloves and touching your body in a complicated pattern make you, objectively, a better batter? Hell no. I can't become Albert Pujols simply by copying what he does at the plate. For Albert, though, his pre-AB ritual is crucial. It locks him in and let's his body know that it's time to hit.

The function of the ritual is simply to let the body know what's coming. The same is true for many of these crazy supplements that elite athletes swear by. They don't do a damn thing themselves, but they provide a psychological boost or reassurance to the athlete.

 

[MrMatt]

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Originally posted by: Skoorb

nothing convincing out there scientifically to support it for weight-lifting that I could find

That's why I don't bother. Most of these supplements are as useful as tits on a bull, so unless there is clear proof/indication that they help, you're simply flushing money in the toilet, or worse, since your body has to assimilate everything it takes in. How do you know such an addition is even safe?

Anecdotes are fun, but no replacement for real data. Apparently a very well reputed Japanese runner used to take the regurgitate from wasps (like honey, but from a wasp, though I didn't even know they made much "regurgitate!"). This person swore by it, but should you take it?

:thumbsup:

I think that supplements are, generally, very much like baseball at-bat rituals. Does adjusting your batting gloves and touching your body in a complicated pattern make you, objectively, a better batter? Hell no. I can't become Albert Pujols simply by copying what he does at the plate. For Albert, though, his pre-AB ritual is crucial. It locks him in and let's his body know that it's time to hit.

The function of the ritual is simply to let the body know what's coming. The same is true for many of these crazy supplements that elite athletes swear by. They don't do a damn thing themselves, but they provide a psychological boost or reassurance to the athlete.

To an extent there probably IS a psychosomatic component to supplementation. But supplements are just that: Supplements. They are to make up for an area that's holding you back in your diet. Think of a bottleneck on your computer. If your RAM is holding back your overclocking efforts, or FPS rate in a game, getting a faster processor isn't going to change anything. So if you're getting plenty of creatine, and lacking in say, protein, taking a creatine supplement isn't going to do anything.

OP, look at your diet, what's lacking in it? Can you fix it with food? Would a supplement be cheaper/easier/more convenient? If so, go with the supplement. When I look at my diet, I currently don't see anything that's lacking, so I don't bother with supplements. In the past I took protein, and saw a positive effect because I wasn't getting as much as I could've. I tried creatine and it didn't do a damn thing since I already eat a TON of tuna, and steak. It's all about supplementing your diet with nutrients that might be lacking.

 

[StageLeft]

Speaking of supplements. Next time you're about to run a race, pace around for 30 minutes beforehand with Linkin Park cranked up (not their new crap stuff but the old good). Free, safe, works effectively showing quantifiable performance benefits in athletes with the name Skoorb

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I'm all and good with whey supplementation because it contains all the proper amino acids. However, I'm not good with supplementing one specific amino acid. With supplementation of one amino acid, you can saturate the certain transmembrane proteins that take in an array of amino acids. Because of this, you can really affect overall absorption of the range of amino acids. Essentially when you supplement one amino acid, you really hinder absorption of a lot more. That's why supplementation of just one amino acid is foolish and that's why it has no scientific positivity (or if it did, it would be at a fairly high cost). Don't supplement one amino acid. It's not good for you at all.

 

[Titan]

Does glutamine reduce sugar cravings?

Check out the guy who does "underground wellness" on youtube. A lot of cool videos and info. Sorry I couldn't find the link where he was saying if you have a sugar craving, take glutamine. Like crack open the capsule and put it under your tongue until it's gone.

It was glutamine he said, still looking for the vid.

 

[Kipper]

Absolutely zero evidence to support glutamine use except in patients after gut surgery...I wrote a paper on AA supplementation about four months ago. In fact, there's very little evidence supporting use of other amino acids for increases in sports performance, as well. The only one that comes to mind are the BCAAs, particularly leucine. Some evidence out there to As a supplement it's not cheap, though - around $1-1.50/dose.

In addition to what SociallyChallenged mentioned, the upshot of creating a chronic amino acid imbalance in your body from oversupplementation is that generally nonessential amino acids can suddenly become essential (because there's not enough to go around or convert to/from), which can result in interference with protein synthesis, and perhaps even neurotransmitter imbalances. Of course, this is somewhat theoretical but since there's little evidence to support it anyway and it costs a ton, why bother? Save your $$$.

 

[allies]

My mom has some evidence that supplementing your body with glu after a particularly draining event/training session will help your immune system recover quicker/lessen the blow to your immune system. I'll try to have her track down the journal articles if you guys want.

 

[Kipper]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18806122

"Eccentric exercise-induced muscle damage does not affect plasma glutamine concentrations (38). There is no scientific evidence for a beneficial effect of oral glutamine supplementation on muscle repair after exercise-induced damage and no evidence of reduced muscle soreness when consuming glutamine compared with placebo."

"

An inadequate dietary intake of protein impairs host immunity with particularly detrimental effects on the T-cell system, resulting in increased incidence of opportunistic infections (42). Although it is unlikely that athletes would ever reach a state of such extreme malnutrition, the impairment of host defense mechanisms is observed even in moderate protein deficiency. Dietary protein is also required to promote muscle protein synthesis after exercise. Interestingly, there is some evidence that an additional intake of 20?30 g/d protein can restore depressed plasma glutamine levels in over-trained athletes (16). Hence, ensuring an adequate intake of protein is important for athletes but consuming glutamine supplements is not."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17618004 (I can't access this one, but the title speaks for itself.)

The list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I did a few quick PubMed searches and turned up at least a dozen reviews - of which a cursory look at their abstracts suggested that there was little benefit, if any, to glutamine...unless you're overtraining, in which case "maybe." Of course, maybe the reviews are all bad - but that seems unlikely. It IS used in clinical situations involving gut surgery for faster recovery - enterocytes use both exogenous and endogenous glutamine both for energy and for cell division.

I'd be interested in seeing these studies, if you can find them.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Speaking of supplements. Next time you're about to run a race, pace around for 30 minutes beforehand with Linkin Park cranked up (not their new crap stuff but the old good). Free, safe, works effectively showing quantifiable performance benefits in athletes with the name Skoorb

LOL. I'll do a "study" and see if that works for athletes named PricklyPete.

 

[Titan]

finally found the video.



Text

At 6:15 in, he reccomends glutamine supplement .5g to 1g to reduce sugar cravings.


Good channel to subscribe to for holistic, new age diet info. A lot of facts and references even if you're not into that sort of thing.

edit: sorry link fixed now.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Titan
finally found the video.

Text


At 6:15 in, he reccomends glutamine supplement .5g to 1g to reduce sugar cravings.


Good channel to subscribe to for holistic, new age diet info. A lot of facts and references even if you're not into that sort of thing.

You've linked directly back to this thread. But based on what you've written, seems all too like the "gurus" who dispense dietary advice without a shred of evidence to back it beyond questionable effects on neurotransmitters (glutamine is a precursor to neurotransmitter GABA). These "experts" can be a mixed bag. Some are genuinely knowledgeable about what they say (i.e. they have considerable training in biochemistry and nutritional sciences), others come straight out of left field.

Edit: As I suspected, the Youtube links directs to a person whose qualifications in nutrition are very questionable. He has ZERO background in nutrition sciences besides a degree in Kinesiology, which generally more exercise physiology focused. The two faux certificates in nutrition are not particularly notable.

A few choice snippets from his bio:

He epitomizes the idea that we DO NOT have to depend on misinformed medical doctors, government agencies, and pharmaceutical companies to achieve superior health and vitality.

You have been warned.

 

[darkxshade]

glutamine I believe is only beneficial for endurance exercises e.g marathon runners

 

[KoolDrew]

The whole reputation glutamine obtained as a muscle building supplement goes back to a study that found adding glutamine to muscle tissue in rats increased protein synthesis and decreased protein breakdown. The studies done on humans for both oral consumption and infusion show no impact on performance, muscle building or recovery.

One study did show glutamine having a slight benefit for fat loss, but we're talking such a small amount of calories burned that it's not very cost effective. I think it was something like 25 grams increasing fat oxidation by an extra 40 calories or something. Small doses *may* be beneficial in protecting the immune system with a very high training load, but the research isn't very conclusive. The only proven benefit is healing of the gut post surgery, as Kipper said.

 

[Eric62]

If you're already using 200 + grams of whey protein a day in addition to a well balanced diet, there is no chance you'll notice any benefit in using glutamine.
If your a veg head, with 0 grams of animal source protein (and 0 protein supplements), then glutamine might be beneficial....

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Eric62
If you're already using 200 + grams of whey protein a day in addition to a well balanced diet, there is no chance you'll notice any benefit in using glutamine.
If your a veg head, with 0 grams of animal source protein (and 0 protein supplements), then glutamine might be beneficial....

Because as everybody knows, plants don't have any protein in them. :disgust:

C'mon. And 200g of whey a day? Jeezus.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Kipper

Originally posted by: Eric62
If you're already using 200 + grams of whey protein a day in addition to a well balanced diet, there is no chance you'll notice any benefit in using glutamine.
If your a veg head, with 0 grams of animal source protein (and 0 protein supplements), then glutamine might be beneficial....

Because as everybody knows, plants don't have any protein in them. :disgust:

C'mon. And 200g of whey a day? Jeezus.

It's definitely harder to get the amount of protein you need for body building on a vegetable only diet. Oh an have you seen Eric62? If he's following the 1 - 1.5gr protein per lb of bodyweight formula he's getting 400gr of protein a day easy.

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

It's definitely harder to get the amount of protein you need for body building on a vegetable only diet. Oh an have you seen Eric62? If he's following the 1 - 1.5gr protein per lb of bodyweight formula he's getting 400gr of protein a day easy.

Which, unless he weighs 400 pounds, is far, far, far, too much protein using a "formula" which was probably intended for KILOGRAMS, rather than POUNDS. The literature recommends around 1.5-1.7 g/kg for weight lifters, strength, and power athletes. That works out to ~0.8 g/lb.

Getting high protein on a vegetable-based diet is harder, but not impossible. Soy packs nearly as much protein as meat, by weight. It is deficient in certain aminos, but nothing th at a balanced diet won't take care of.

But to get back to the point, simply because you are a vegetarian doesn't mean that you will see a benefit from using glutamine (and you won't).

Edit: I see he does weigh nearly 320. Still too much protein, in my opinion, for what it's worth.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Kipper

Originally posted by: Eric62
If you're already using 200 + grams of whey protein a day in addition to a well balanced diet, there is no chance you'll notice any benefit in using glutamine.
If your a veg head, with 0 grams of animal source protein (and 0 protein supplements), then glutamine might be beneficial....

Because as everybody knows, plants don't have any protein in them. :disgust:

C'mon. And 200g of whey a day? Jeezus.

It's definitely harder to get the amount of protein you need for body building on a vegetable only diet. Oh an have you seen Eric62? If he's following the 1 - 1.5gr protein per lb of bodyweight formula he's getting 400gr of protein a day easy.

400g is still far too much for his size. The original statement is 1-1.5g protein per lb lean muscle mass, which is a very different number. He could probably get about 250g of protein and be a-okay.

Also, I don't necessarily agree with vegetarian weightlifting, but plants have a significant amount of protein if you eat the right stuff (legumes, grains, nuts, etc). Balance that with some eggs, milk, cheese, etc and it's not half bad. I agree that meat should be in the weightlifters diet, but it's not impossible to do without.

 

[Eric62]

Responce to Kipper:
I presently weigh 317 with cuts.
I learned long ago that academic "formula's" yield little real world results.
If your goal is 20" arms (for example), and you've reached your goal eating soy beans and peanuts - then power too you.
Most aren't that genetically gifted. We (the genetically average) have to utilize every trick in the nutritional book (along with the training and supplementation books) for decades to reach super hero proportions.
BTW: I do count calories and keep a nutritional log, but I haven't calculated the macro nutrient breakdowns of those calories for several years. I do add 6 scoops of whey to my beverages on non training days, and an additional 6 (12 total) on training days. Seems to work for me, but then I annually have my blood checked for potential problems...

 

[Kipper]

Originally posted by: Eric62
Responce to Kipper:
I presently weigh 317 with cuts.
I learned long ago that academic "formula's" yield little real world results.
If your goal is 20" arms (for example), and you've reached your goal eating soy beans and peanuts - then power too you.
Most aren't that genetically gifted. We (the genetically average) have to utilize every trick in the nutritional book (along with the training and supplementation books) for decades to reach super hero proportions.
BTW: I do count calories and keep a nutritional log, but I haven't calculated the macro nutrient breakdowns of those calories for several years. I do add 6 scoops of whey to my beverages on non training days, and an additional 6 (12 total) on training days. Seems to work for me, but then I annually have my blood checked for potential problems...

Well, if you want to dispense with the scientific method, that's your prerogative. It is true that sometimes research doesn't translate particularly well to the real world, but to apply that label to all studies is a bit shortsighted.

Any caliber of elite athlete has gotten there via a combination of genetics and training, but both go only so far. You are NOT going to be able to pull a random person off the street and train them into an elite Olympic weightlifter. Doesn't matter how much supplementation (legal or illegal) you shove down their throat and into their veins. Some people are simply not built to be able to lift 450 lbs over their head, just as some people are not designed to complete Ironman triathlons in five hours. From that standpoint, you are probably certainly less genetically average than you claim to be. After all, if EVERYBODY could do it, why would certain people be elite and others not?

I'll also point to another reason why people believe that certain supplements "work." The placebo effect. There is a measured placebo effect with many supplements. If I give you a sugar pill and your strength increases, does that mean that sugar pills work? Of course not. For example, I've read on boards every so often that people taking DHEA claim it works. Unfortunately, there isn't any data to back up the claim that DHEA works and it's extremely hard to separate fact from fiction in testimonials.

That said, it is virtually next to impossible to take in 400g of protein without some sort of supplementation or without favoring animal products, true. It is certainly doable, if you have a large enough stomach. But first, there's the question of whether more is better (which research tells us isn't true, since there is a definite tapering effect) or if it is absolutely true that you NEED to eat animal products in order to increase LBM (also not true). The deciding factor is probably more to do with the quantity of food and the planning necessary to consume large amounts of protein, than whether or not it works or not.

If you think 400 g of protein works for you, fine. Provided your kidneys are okay (signs of which may or may not show up on a blood test - there are tests to measure kidney function) there is probably little harm in taking that much in, besides the hit to the wallet. All I am saying is that there are a lot of other people on the other side of the fence that don't think that is the case. My two cents.

Edit: And 400 g of protein or not, glutamine does not work. That much is true. Any effects you're probably seeing are like I said, placebo.

 

[alkemyst]

most here don't train at the level that supplements really start to matter. Diet should be the key focus for about 90% here.

For those that have their diets locked down and still aren't seeing the results and/or having problems with recuperation or performance then can start looking at those issues and target supplements.

I don't lift seriously anymore. My life used to revolve around lifting and sports. So much that I had at one time 4 gym memberships (2 were free though) just so I always had a gym by where I'd be. I didn't miss workouts.

Now the thing with supplements is they don't work the same for everyone and not all manufacturers follow the same guidelines.

Things that worked for me:

Creatine...put on visible size whether it was all water or not. I got better gains during it.

post workout I mixed up a Glutamine, Vanadyl, dextrose and a couple other items in a shake. I felt better the next day drinking these than when I ran out.

NO products...I'd get pumped up in the gym...some though were total duds.

Various vitamins. I was sweating and pissing/eliminating a lot more...most are very cheap anyway.

ECA stacks...worked great for fat burning and energy.

Protein powder...yeah yeah yeah...so many will say "just eat whole foods", fuck that noise. You train hard and get to about 160-170lbs cut you are going to be finding you are eating more than just about anything else during the day. I ate about every 3 hours. Carrying a meal-replacement or protein only powder, shaker bottle and using water was the only way I could do it. I ate a real breakfast, a real lunch and a real dinner. My last meal of the day was also a real food (usually something like cottage cheese before bed).

Even if you can do it all with whole foods many find it impossible to keep the carbs and fats under control unless they are dealing with uber budgets.

I did a month or so of pro-hormones and got freaking excellent results. I didn't put on so much in size as I did in pure strength and endurance gains. The thing with real pro-hormones (I am not sure if all of them are even still legal, they were the ones the athletes were getting scrutiny for) is they cost more than steroids do. I have never used steroids, but I know of many that did. They had no health problems, their nuts/dick didn't shrink, I don't know any that had any constant acne...they got fucking built like tanks though if they wanted too or like a greek statue if that's what they wanted. They had incredible energy levels and recovery.

If you are interested in buying them bodybuilding.com usually ended up being my one-stop shop. there is a pricewatch site: http://www.drumlib.com/bestprice.htm that you can hunt down the best prices for supplements.

all that said most would do better focusing on their lifts and getting their weights up.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Kipper

Originally posted by: Eric62
Responce to Kipper:
I presently weigh 317 with cuts.
I learned long ago that academic "formula's" yield little real world results.
If your goal is 20" arms (for example), and you've reached your goal eating soy beans and peanuts - then power too you.
Most aren't that genetically gifted. We (the genetically average) have to utilize every trick in the nutritional book (along with the training and supplementation books) for decades to reach super hero proportions.
BTW: I do count calories and keep a nutritional log, but I haven't calculated the macro nutrient breakdowns of those calories for several years. I do add 6 scoops of whey to my beverages on non training days, and an additional 6 (12 total) on training days. Seems to work for me, but then I annually have my blood checked for potential problems...

Well, if you want to dispense with the scientific method, that's your prerogative. It is true that sometimes research doesn't translate particularly well to the real world, but to apply that label to all studies is a bit shortsighted.

Any caliber of elite athlete has gotten there via a combination of genetics and training, but both go only so far. You are NOT going to be able to pull a random person off the street and train them into an elite Olympic weightlifter. Doesn't matter how much supplementation (legal or illegal) you shove down their throat and into their veins. Some people are simply not built to be able to lift 450 lbs over their head, just as some people are not designed to complete Ironman triathlons in five hours. From that standpoint, you are probably certainly less genetically average than you claim to be. After all, if EVERYBODY could do it, why would certain people be elite and others not?

I'll also point to another reason why people believe that certain supplements "work." The placebo effect. There is a measured placebo effect with many supplements. If I give you a sugar pill and your strength increases, does that mean that sugar pills work? Of course not. For example, I've read on boards every so often that people taking DHEA claim it works. Unfortunately, there isn't any data to back up the claim that DHEA works and it's extremely hard to separate fact from fiction in testimonials.

That said, it is virtually next to impossible to take in 400g of protein without some sort of supplementation or without favoring animal products, true. It is certainly doable, if you have a large enough stomach. But first, there's the question of whether more is better (which research tells us isn't true, since there is a definite tapering effect) or if it is absolutely true that you NEED to eat animal products in order to increase LBM (also not true). The deciding factor is probably more to do with the quantity of food and the planning necessary to consume large amounts of protein, than whether or not it works or not.

If you think 400 g of protein works for you, fine. Provided your kidneys are okay (signs of which may or may not show up on a blood test - there are tests to measure kidney function) there is probably little harm in taking that much in, besides the hit to the wallet. All I am saying is that there are a lot of other people on the other side of the fence that don't think that is the case. My two cents.

Edit: And 400 g of protein or not, glutamine does not work. That much is true. Any effects you're probably seeing are like I said, placebo.

Many true powerlifters and bodybuilders have shown what 'medicine' says works/doesn't work is quite different in their experiments. The main problem with 'scientific research' is other they can't quite get the exact type of subjects they need and try to extrapolate the data to it. It doesn't always hold true...the first seven years of my education was deep in biological science and chemistry esp focusing on what could help my performance in the gym.

My triglycerides were off the chart, but I was in perfect health. It wasn't until I started going to a D.O. that specialized in sports medicine and weight lifters that I was really getting proper advice/treatment for injury and my health.