Global Warming Scientists Trapped in Antarctic Ice

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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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The Captain of the ship told Turney to return to the ship immediately, but the dumbass delayed for hours and when he finally returned it was too late, but keep on making excuses for him.

Actually I think he sounds like quite the self absorbed prick, and I don't believe for a second he is devoid of any fault, but thanks for giving us all another glimpse into your processing abilities by paraphrasing a source to me that I just told you I question. I knew you'd avoid the question I spelled out, but the circular reasoning there is a real bonus.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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You just can't help yourself from attempting to define other people's argument for them, can you? Kindly fuck off with that shit.

I am not defending or condemning the crew, I am not defending or condemning the scientific background of those aboard, nor am I delving into climate debate. I am addressing the OP's sentiment of "If they couldn't save themselves how can they save the world?!"
(one echoed by every parrot in this thread, you included) in lieu of a maritime concept that applies everywhere else on the globe wrt to the safety and wellbeing of a vessel and those on it. Responsibility for ship and passenger safety falls to the skipper. Period. End of sentence. Case closed. This has been explained previously, yet Turney's role as exploration organizer/leader keeps being spewed up like that changes something.

Either the sentiment I mentioned is completely ignorant and the stuff of trolls, or Turney is a Captain and really did jeopardize everyone by failing in his responsibility. So let's see this license! I shouldn't have to go into how that is not the same thing as supporting his views on climate change, or rather, I won't.
Turney's role as expedition leader changes everything. He made the decision to sail at a certain time, via a certain route, at times of historically heavy sea ice. (In fact, a route whose last 60 km is now blocked by permanent ice, during a historically heavy sea ice period. Spirit of Mawson, recreating Mawson's voyage.) Pack ice is not something one can simply steer around, it covers vast areas. If one chooses to sail through those areas, one takes the chance that one may not get through, period. This is NOT the captain's fault as the captain was not in charge of plotting the route; that was set by Turney. Nor did Turney follow the captain's orders to re-embark because of the coming blizzard, which would compact the pack ice and likely trap them. Because, again, Turney was the expedition leader, not Igor. The ship sailed a route selected by Turney, with stops selected by Turney and of a duration determined by Turney. Unless Turney can creditably claim he was somehow deceived that the Akademik Shokalskiy had the ability to fly, the fault is his, not his captain's.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Actually I think he sounds like quite the self absorbed prick, and I don't believe for a second he is devoid of any fault, but thanks for giving us all another glimpse into your processing abilities by paraphrasing a source to me that I just told you I question. I knew you'd avoid the question I spelled out, but the circular reasoning there is a real bonus.

There's multiple records of what Turney did and some of them are from tweets from his own crew and have been linked in this thread. Try giving them a read.
 

ralfy

Senior member
Jul 22, 2013
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GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
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Thanks, Gaia for the informative posts. As I mentioned, I just don't have the chemistry skills to really get a handle on ocean acidification. Softwater acidification is pretty straightforward and I've seen the effects of that first hand, but the ocean has massive buffering capacity and it's simply over my head to understand even orders of magnitude reactions. As I understand it the problem as studied relates to reef-building corals and to a lesser extent most crustacea which rely on carbonate ions to build shells. As seawater acidifies, the equation moves left, with fewer carbonate ions and more dissolved CO2. It's difficult for me to make a judgement on the magnitude of the problem as so much of the literature is clearly alarmist, but the ecological importance of reefs is hard to overstate. (Although it can be done; one paper below puts the number of people who rely on reefs for their daily food and income at 500,000 million - about one in twelve for the whole Earth.) Some links on the matter:

Carbonic acid is quite weak.

The equilibrium constant in sea water for CO2 + H2O <===> H2CO3 is quite small.

[H2CO3]/[CO2]&#8776; 1.2×10&#8722;3.

This leads to the production of 2.5*10^-4 moles of H+.
The large majority of it remain in the water as CO2.

We can disregard the dissociation of HCO3- as it only adds 4.6×10&#8722;7 moles of H+.

Now the following equation is the equation that threatens the calcium carbonate dependent creatures.

Ca(CO3)2 + 2 H+ <=> Ca2+ +2HCO3-

The problem is you also have the following equilibrium .

H2CO3 <==> HCO3&#8722; + H+

So as you add CO2 to the water and get more H2CO3 that will generate H+ that will then attack Ca(CO3)2, you get HCO3-.

But as you increase HCO3- concentration you get Ca(CO3)2.

I'll do some basic calculation to see how much CO2 you need in the atmosphere to change pH in a meaningful way - it is said that the increase of CO2 concentration from pre industrial levels to today made a change of 0.01 pH.
 
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bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
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Hot off the presses from the final draft of a report to be published later this month by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the ultimate watchdog whose massive, six-yearly &#8216;assessments&#8217; are accepted by environmentalists, politicians and experts as the gospel of climate science.

They FINALLY admit a mistake. This is HUGE. It almost appears like they are acting like scientists and admitting that their theory has been falsified to some degree. Watershed moment folks.

Yet the leaked report makes the extraordinary concession that over the past 15 years, recorded world temperatures have increased at only a quarter of the rate of IPCC claimed when it published its last assessment in 2007.

Back then, it said observed warming over the 15 years from 1990-2005 had taken place at a rate of 0.2C per decade, and it predicted this would continue for the following 20 years, on the basis of forecasts made by computer climate models.

But the new report says the observed warming over the more recent 15 years to 2012 was just 0.05C per decade - below almost all computer predictions.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uters-got-effects-greenhouse-gases-wrong.html
 
Nov 30, 2006
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You'll have to wait for BEST to conduct further studies.
Thank you for essentially admitting that the BEST study to date hasn't supported mainstream views beyond confirming the temperature record (see Post #436 where you claimed it did). In fact, I would say that Mueller's conclusions regarding his curve fitting exercise flies directly in the face of current mainstream views. The climate is known to be much more complex than a mere correlation of global temperatures to just volcanic activity and CO2. It's an interesting exercise...but correlation is not causation.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Carbonic acid is quite weak.

The equilibrium constant in sea water for CO2 + H2O <===> H2CO3 is quite small.

[H2CO3]/[CO2]&#8776; 1.2×10&#8722;3.

This leads to the production of 2.5*10^-4 moles of H+.
The large majority of it remain in the water as CO2.

We can disregard the dissociation of HCO3- as it only adds 4.6×10&#8722;7 moles of H+.

Now the following equation is the equation that threatens the calcium carbonate dependent creatures.

Ca(CO3)2 + 2 H+ <=> Ca2+ +2HCO3-

The problem is you also have the following equilibrium .

H2CO3 <==> HCO3&#8722; + H+

So as you add CO2 to the water and get more H2CO3 that will generate H+ that will then attack Ca(CO3)2, you get HCO3-.

But as you increase HCO3- concentration you get Ca(CO3)2.

I'll do some basic calculation to see how much CO2 you need in the atmosphere to change pH in a meaningful way - it is said that the increase of CO2 concentration from pre industrial levels to today made a change of 0.01 pH.
Thanks.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
3,622
0
0
Thank you for essentially admitting that the BEST study to date hasn't supported mainstream views beyond confirming the temperature record (see Post #436 where you claimed it did). In fact, I would say that Mueller's conclusions regarding his curve fitting exercise flies directly in the face of current mainstream views. The climate is known to be much more complex than a mere correlation of global temperatures to just volcanic activity and CO2. It's an interesting exercise...but correlation is not causation.

How climate blogging &#8216;profoundly affected&#8217; Ben Santer

Posted on January 18, 2014 by Anthony Watts
Tom Nelson points out quite an admission:
&#8220;Blogging is affecting me profoundly. Obviously, Mr. McIntyre has profoundly affected my life&#8221;.
That&#8217;s from this video:
The General Public: Why Such Resistance? (to global warming)
(February 25, 2010) Ben Santer, a research scientist from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, discusses the recent problems with the use of the freedom of information act for non-US citizens to demand complete records, including emails, on scientific research projects. Santer posits that this is a dangerous dilemma that will ultimately inhibit scientific research.
This course was originally presented in Stanford&#8217;s Continuing Studies program.
The video and several key points of interest in the video follow.

Nelson writes:
The video is 1 hour 46 minutes long. The best stuff is around 42:30 to the end.
Santer uses words like harassment, frivolous, nonsense, hatred, bullies, &#8220;forces of unreason&#8221;, abuse, and McCarthyism. He&#8217;d like to get some support/protection from the Obama administration.
Santer at 1:26:37 &#8220;Blogging is affecting me profoundly. Obviously, Mr. McIntyre has profoundly affected my life&#8221;.
 
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ralfy

Senior member
Jul 22, 2013
484
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Hot off the presses from the final draft of a report to be published later this month by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the ultimate watchdog whose massive, six-yearly &#8216;assessments&#8217; are accepted by environmentalists, politicians and experts as the gospel of climate science.

They FINALLY admit a mistake. This is HUGE. It almost appears like they are acting like scientists and admitting that their theory has been falsified to some degree. Watershed moment folks.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uters-got-effects-greenhouse-gases-wrong.html

That was from last September. See also "Scientists take the Mail on Sunday to task over claim that warming is half what IPCC said last time" from Carbon Brief.http://www.carbonbrief.org*********...laim-that-warming-is-half-what-ipcc-expected/

(Sorry, the URL keeps getting asterisked.)
 
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ralfy

Senior member
Jul 22, 2013
484
53
91
Thank you for essentially admitting that the BEST study to date hasn't supported mainstream views beyond confirming the temperature record (see Post #436 where you claimed it did). In fact, I would say that Mueller's conclusions regarding his curve fitting exercise flies directly in the face of current mainstream views. The climate is known to be much more complex than a mere correlation of global temperatures to just volcanic activity and CO2. It's an interesting exercise...but correlation is not causation.

BEST argues that it has countered all of the claims made by skeptics regarding biases to explain the temperature anomaly increase:

http://berkeleyearth.org/summary-of-findings

Also, the argument of complexity works both ways.

Finally, from what I gathered the argument is not a direct correlation between CO2 ppm and temperature anomaly but the effect of the former on positive feedback factors. See the NAS final report for details.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,700
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BEST argues that it has countered all of the claims made by skeptics regarding biases to explain the temperature anomaly increase:

http://berkeleyearth.org/summary-of-findings

Also, the argument of complexity works both ways.

Finally, from what I gathered the argument is not a direct correlation between CO2 ppm and temperature anomaly but the effect of the former on positive feedback factors. See the NAS final report for details.


The fact is that CO2 is the primer of the AGW theory.

But not only CO2 seem to have as much effect in temperature as the AGW theory defends, none of the positive feedbacks have surfaced.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,700
406
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S_bm_extent_hires.png


Poor guys just chose a bad time to go to the south pole.

s_timeseries.gif


seaice-recent-antarctic.gif


Apparently the heat hiding in the oceans didn't "slosh" to the south pole yet.

global-daily-ice-area-withtrend1.jpg


World sea ice seems immune to the CO2 global warming.

But maybe they listen to stuff like:

"If we were to invent a set of conditions conducive to retreat of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, this would be it," said Don Blankenship, senior research scientist at The University of Texas at Austin's Institute for Geophysics and co-author on the new paper. "With its smooth bed that slopes steeply toward the interior, we could find no other region in West Antarctica more poised for change than this newly discovered basin at the head of the Filchner-Ronne Ice Shelf. The only saving grace is that losing the ice over this new basin would only raise sea level by a small percentage of the several meters that would result if the entire West Antarctic Ice Sheet destabilized."

"We can lose an awful lot of ice to the sea without ever having summers warm enough to make the snow on top of the glaciers melt," said the study's lead author Hamish Pritchard of the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, United Kingdom. "The oceans can do all the work from below."

"The melting of the Greenland ice sheet is already well documented with Greenland seting a new melt record in 2010, and Greenland melting in 2011 well above average with near-record mass loss. We may be witnessing the start of the destabilization of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS). The collapse of these ice sheets, once started will be impossible to stop and will contribute to substantial sea level rise that will affect coastal areas of Australia and around the world. Sea levels will rise slowly, then accelerate and continue for several centuries. In the distant past sea levels have risen at a speed of up to one metre per 20 years, although we are unlikely to see that rate this century."

That West Antarctic Ice Sheet really seems to be shrinking... erm, expanding.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,763
10,066
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Apparently the heat hiding in the oceans didn't "slosh" to the south pole yet.

One might argue the South Pole is in isolation unique to its geography. The minor warming we have seen thus far does not yet disturb it.

World sea ice seems immune to the CO2 global warming.

The Arctic would disagree by its considerable losses. Yet there is hope for recovery when the North Atlantic turns cold after a future shift in the AMO.

It remains to be seen whether Sea Ice will return to normal within our life times. 2013 was a good year for Sea Ice, but it was just a year. We will need more than that to start a trend to rival the past 20 years of considerable melt.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,700
406
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One might argue the South Pole is in isolation unique to its geography. The minor warming we have seen thus far does not yet disturb it.



The Arctic would disagree by its considerable losses. Yet there is hope for recovery when the North Atlantic turns cold after a future shift in the AMO.

It remains to be seen whether Sea Ice will return to normal within our life times. 2013 was a good year for Sea Ice, but it was just a year. We will need more than that to start a trend to rival the past 20 years of considerable melt.

Unique geography as in being in a pole?
The poles should be the ones warming up faster.

The Antarctic Ocean is much bigger than the Arctic Ocean.

The difference is that the Antarctic Ocean is surrounding a land mass while the Arctic Ocean is surrounded by land mass.

I don't see any considerable melt, unless you mean the Arctic isolated and not the global sea ice.

But remember the Arctic is weather. The Antarctic is weather. Only global average matter. :)
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,763
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Unique geography as in being in a pole?

As in your own quote:
The difference is that the Antarctic Ocean is surrounding a land mass while the Arctic Ocean is surrounded by land mass.
Antarctic being land surrounded by Ocean gives it a more rigid polar vortex which provides stronger thermal isolation compared to the Arctic. In short, it has less warm weather to disturb it.

The poles should be the ones warming up faster.
Agreed, along with minimum day time temperatures. The coldest aspects of our weather are what we will see moderate or warm the most.

I don't see any considerable melt, unless you mean the Arctic isolated and not the global sea ice.

But remember the Arctic is weather. The Antarctic is weather. Only global average matter. :)
A year is weather. Do not tout 2013 in front of us as if it holds greater meaning.
 

ralfy

Senior member
Jul 22, 2013
484
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ralfy

Senior member
Jul 22, 2013
484
53
91
S_bm_extent_hires.png


Poor guys just chose a bad time to go to the south pole.

s_timeseries.gif


seaice-recent-antarctic.gif


Apparently the heat hiding in the oceans didn't "slosh" to the south pole yet.

global-daily-ice-area-withtrend1.jpg


World sea ice seems immune to the CO2 global warming.

But maybe they listen to stuff like:

"If we were to invent a set of conditions conducive to retreat of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, this would be it," said Don Blankenship, senior research scientist at The University of Texas at Austin's Institute for Geophysics and co-author on the new paper. "With its smooth bed that slopes steeply toward the interior, we could find no other region in West Antarctica more poised for change than this newly discovered basin at the head of the Filchner-Ronne Ice Shelf. The only saving grace is that losing the ice over this new basin would only raise sea level by a small percentage of the several meters that would result if the entire West Antarctic Ice Sheet destabilized."

"We can lose an awful lot of ice to the sea without ever having summers warm enough to make the snow on top of the glaciers melt," said the study's lead author Hamish Pritchard of the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, United Kingdom. "The oceans can do all the work from below."

"The melting of the Greenland ice sheet is already well documented with Greenland seting a new melt record in 2010, and Greenland melting in 2011 well above average with near-record mass loss. We may be witnessing the start of the destabilization of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS). The collapse of these ice sheets, once started will be impossible to stop and will contribute to substantial sea level rise that will affect coastal areas of Australia and around the world. Sea levels will rise slowly, then accelerate and continue for several centuries. In the distant past sea levels have risen at a speed of up to one metre per 20 years, although we are unlikely to see that rate this century."

That West Antarctic Ice Sheet really seems to be shrinking... erm, expanding.

From the same source:

"Arctic vs. Antarctic"

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/difference.html

i.e., significant decrease for the arctic vs. a slight increase for the antarctic. The article also refers to

"Environment: Trends"

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/environment/trends.html

Finally, related information from the same site:

On global warming and sea ice extent:

http://nsidc.org/news/press/day_after/q2.html

FAQ on sea ice extent, etc:

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/faq/#studying_sea_ice
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,700
406
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By the way you linked the same article twice.

Date of article, 2012.
Lets have a look.

1."Emissions
At the heart of all IPCC projections are "emission scenarios:" low-, mid-, and high-range estimates for future carbon emissions. From these "what if" estimates flow projections for temperature, sea-rise, and more.

Projection: In 2001, the IPCC offered a range of fossil fuel and industrial emissions trends, from a best-case scenario of 7.7 billion tons of carbon released each year by 2010 to a worst-case scenario of 9.7 billion tons.

Reality: In 2010, global emissions from fossil fuels alone totaled 9.1 billion tons of carbon, according to federal government's Earth Systems Research Laboratory."

Are CO2 emissions a positive feedback of CO2?


"Temperature
IPCC models use the emission scenarios discussed above to estimate average global temperature increases by the year 2100.

Projection: The IPCC 2007 assessment projected a worst-case temperature rise of 4.3° to 11.5° Fahrenheit, with a high probability of 7.2°F.

Reality: We are currently on track for a rise of between 6.3° and 13.3°F, with a high probability of an increase of 9.4°F by 2100, according to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Other modelers are getting similar results, including a study published earlier this month by the Global Carbon Project consortium confirming the likelihood of a 9ºF rise."

Lets see the reality outside of the MIT computer model.

IPCC_Warming_Predictions_Wide.jpg


So not only temperature isn't a positive feedback of CO2, the actual temperature is way lower than predicted by teh IPCC, opposed to what the article linked claim.

3."Arctic Meltdown
Five years ago, the summer retreat of Arctic ice wildly outdistanced all 18 IPCC computer models, amazing IPCC scientists. It did so again in 2012.

Projection: The IPCC has always confidently projected that the Arctic ice sheet was safe at least until 2050 or well beyond 2100.

Reality: Summer ice is thinning faster than every climate projection, and today scientists predict an ice-free Arctic in years, not decades. Last summer, Arctic sea ice extent plummeted to 1.32 million square miles, the lowest level ever recorded – 50 percent below the long-term 1979 to 2000 average.

Why the miss? For scientists, it is increasingly clear that the models are under-predicting the rate of sea ice retreat because they are missing key real-world interactions."

Again I don't see how the Arctic meltdown is a positive feed back of CO2.

Additionally after the low of 2012, 2013 seen a rebound.

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

"2013 in review

While the most notable aspect of 2013 was the much higher September ice extent relative to the record low for 2012, extent in 2013 was nevertheless low overall. The maximum extent for 2013 of 15.13 million square kilometers (5.84 million square miles), recorded on 15 March was the sixth lowest over the period of satellite observations. The minimum of 5.10 million square kilometers (1.97 million square miles), recorded on 15 September, was also the sixth lowest.

Continuing a recent pattern, ice extent remained below average over the northern North Atlantic throughout the year. Sea ice retreat began unusually early in the northern Barents and Kara seas. By comparison, sea ice retreated from the Alaskan coast later than in recent years. This occurred despite unusually active late winter fracturing of the ice pack in the region. The fraction of the Arctic sea ice cover comprised of old ice continued to decline.

Summer weather patterns during 2013 were very different from those seen in 2007 to 2012. Overall it was considerably cooler. There was little evidence of the summer dipole pattern seen in recent years. Relatively cool conditions also characterized the Greenland Ice Sheet, and surface melt was much less extensive than for 2012. The year 2013 reminds us that natural climate variability is very strong in the Arctic.

In Antarctica, sea ice extent has been well above average, setting record extents for both the summer minimum and winter maximum. For a long period over the winter and spring months, ice extent was at a record for the modern satellite era. While remarkable, it is important to note that trends in Antarctic sea ice extent remain small (1 to 4%) and are statistically significant relative to inter-annual variation only for the late autumn, winter, and early spring months. Early satellite records (the Nimbus satellite series in 1964, 1966, and 1969) provide further evidence that Antarctic sea ice extent is highly variable; the three years covered by Nimbus show September extents that were both higher and lower than seen in the modern continuous, calibrated satellite record."

And of course, globally 2013 was a year above average for Sea Ice, due to record highs from the Antarctic Ocean.

global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg


Lets go to the next feedback.

4."Ice Sheets
Greenland and Antarctica are melting, even though IPCC said in 1995 that they wouldn’t be.

Projection: In 1995, IPCC projected "little change in the extent of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets… over the next 50-100 years." In 2007 IPCC embraced a drastic revision: "New data… show that losses from the ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica have very likely contributed to sea level rise over 1993 to 2003."

Reality: Today, ice loss in Greenland and Antarctica is trending at least 100 years ahead of projections compared to IPCC's first three reports."

Erm, doesn't look like a positive feedback.

But lets look at the rest.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20120013495_2012013235.pdf

"Mass Gains of the Antarctic Ice Sheet Exceed Losses

Zwally, H. Jay; Li, Jun; Robbins, John; Saba, Jack L.; Yi, Donghui; Brenner, Anita; Bromwich, David

Abstract:

During 2003 to 2008, the mass gain of the Antarctic ice sheet from snow accumulation exceeded the mass loss from ice discharge by 49 Gt/yr (2.5% of input), as derived from ICESat laser measurements of elevation change. The net gain (86 Gt/yr) over the West Antarctic (WA) and East Antarctic ice sheets (WA and EA) is essentially unchanged from revised results for 1992 to 2001 from ERS radar altimetry.

Imbalances in individual drainage systems (DS) are large (-68% to +103% of input), as are temporal changes (-39% to +44%). The recent 90 Gt/yr loss from three DS (Pine Island, Thwaites-Smith, and Marie-Bryd Coast) of WA exceeds the earlier 61 Gt/yr loss, consistent with reports of accelerating ice flow and dynamic thinning. Similarly, the recent 24 Gt/yr loss from three DS in the Antarctic Peninsula (AP) is consistent with glacier accelerations following breakup of the Larsen B and other ice shelves. In contrast, net increases in the five other DS of WA and AP and three of the 16 DS in East Antarctica (EA) exceed the increased losses.

Alternate interpretations of the mass changes driven by accumulation variations are given using results from atmospheric-model re-analysis and a parameterization based on 5% change in accumulation per degree of observed surface temperature change. A slow increase in snowfall with climate warming, consistent with model predictions, may be offsetting increased dynamic losses."

Video presenting the study above. http://vimeo.com/46429608


http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v6/n8/full/ngeo1874.html

"Limits in detecting acceleration of ice sheet mass loss due to climate variability

B. Wouters, J. L. Bamber, M. R. van den Broeke, J. T. M. Lenaerts & I. Sasgen

Nature Geoscience (2013) doi:10.1038/ngeo1874
The Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets have been reported to be losing mass at accelerating rates1, 2. If sustained, this accelerating mass loss will result in a global mean sea-level rise by the year 2100 that is approximately 43&#8201;cm greater than if a linear trend is assumed2. However, at present there is no scientific consensus on whether these reported accelerations result from variability inherent to the ice-sheet–climate system, or reflect long-term changes and thus permit extrapolation to the future3. Here we compare mass loss trends and accelerations in satellite data collected between January 2003 and September 2012 from the Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment to long-term mass balance time series from a regional surface mass balance model forced by re-analysis data. We find that the record length of spaceborne gravity observations is too short at present to meaningfully separate long-term accelerations from short-term ice sheet variability. We also find that the detection threshold of mass loss acceleration depends on record length: to detect an acceleration at an accuracy within ±10&#8201;Gt&#8201;yr&#8722;2, a period of 10 years or more of observations is required for Antarctica and about 20 years for Greenland. Therefore, climate variability adds uncertainty to extrapolations of future mass loss and sea-level rise, underscoring the need for continuous long-term satellite monitoring."

Reality doesn't seem to compute with article linked, but hey, what do Satellites and Nasa know about the subject? Computer models FTW.

5.Sea-Level Rise
The fate of the world's coastlines has become a classic example of how the IPCC, when confronted with conflicting science, tends to go silent.

Projection: In the 2001 report, the IPCC projected a sea rise of 2 millimeters per year. The worst-case scenario in the 2007 report, which looked mostly at thermal expansion of the oceans as temperatures warmed, called for up to 1.9 feet of sea-level-rise by century's end.

Today: Observed sea-level-rise has averaged 3.3 millimeters per year since 1990. By 2009, various studies that included ice-melt offered drastically higher projections of between 2.4 and 6.2 feet sea level rise by 2100.

Why the miss? IPCC scientists couldn't agree on a value for the contribution melting Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets would add to sea-level rise. So they simply left out the data to reach consensus. Science historian Naomi Oreskes calls this – one of IPCC's biggest underestimates – "consensus by omission."

Again, this isn't a positive feedback.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback

"Positive feedback is a process in which the effects of a small disturbance on a system include an increase in the magnitude of the perturbation.[1] That is, A produces more of B which in turn produces more of A.[2] In contrast, a system in which the results of a change act to reduce or counteract it has negative feedback.[1][3]"

In the case of AGW a positive feedback would be CO2 causing temperature to raise and the raising temperature would cause the water vapor (the most important GHG) concentration in the atmosphere to raise, which would lead to higher temperatures.

(by the way water vapor concentration hasn't raised)

But again lets go back to this opinion article.

http://sealevel.colorado.edu/conten...grace-over-2002–2011-and-its-impact-sea-level

Title Continental mass change from GRACE over 2002–2011 and its impact on sea level
Publication Type Journal Article
Year of Publication 2012
Authors Baur, O., M. Kuhn, and W. Featherstone
Journal Journal of Geodesy
Date Published 07/2012
ISSN 1432-1394
Keywords grace, sea_level, terrestrial_water
Abstract Present-day continental mass variation as observed by space gravimetry reveals secular mass decline and accumulation. Whereas the former contributes to sea-level rise, the latter results in sea-level fall. As such, consideration of mass accumulation (rather than focussing solely on mass loss) is important for reliable overall estimates of sea-level change. Using data from the Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment satellite mission, we quantify mass-change trends in 19 continental areas that exhibit a dominant signal. The integrated mass change within these regions is representative of the variation over the whole land areas. During the integer 9-year period of May 2002 to April 2011, GIA-adjusted mass gain and mass loss in these areas contributed, on average, to -(0.7 ± 0.4) mm/year of sea-level fall and + (1.8 ± 0.2) mm/year of sea-level rise; the net effect was + (1.1 ± 0.6) mm/year. Ice melting over Greenland, Iceland, Svalbard, the Canadian Arctic archipelago, Antarctica, Alaska and Patagonia was responsible for + (1.4±0.2) mm/year of the total balance. Hence, land-water mass accumulation compensated about 20 % of the impact of ice-melt water influx to the oceans. In order to assess the impact of geocentre motion, we converted geocentre coordinates derived from satellite laser ranging (SLR) to degree-one geopotential coefficients. We found geocentre motion to introduce small biases to mass-change and sea-level change estimates; its overall effect is + (0.1 ± 0.1) mm/year. This value, however, should be taken with care owing to questionable reliability of secular trends in SLR-derived geocentre coordinates."

So the science points to a sea level rise of 1.7 mm year but the article linked thinks it should be 3.3mm/year since 1990.

Ok.

6."Ocean Acidification
To its credit, the IPCC admits to vast climate change unknowns. Ocean acidification is one such impact.

Projection: Unmentioned as a threat in the 1990, 1995 and 2001 IPCC reports. First recognized in 2007, when IPCC projected acidification of between 0.14 and 0.35 pH units by 2100. “While the effects of observed ocean acidification on the marine biosphere are as yet undocumented,” said the report, “the progressive acidification of oceans is expected to have negative impacts on marine shell-forming organisms (e.g. corals) and their dependent species.”

Reality: The world’s oceans absorb about a quarter of the carbon dioxide humans release annually into the atmosphere. Since the start of the Industrial Revolution, the pH of surface ocean waters has fallen by 0.1 pH units. Since the pH scale is logarithmic, this change represents a stunning 30 percent increase in acidity.

Why the miss? Scientists didn’t have the data. They began studying acidification by the late 1990s, but there weren’t many papers on the topic until mid-2000, missing the submission deadline for IPCC’s 2001 report. Especially alarming are new findings that ocean temperatures and currents are causing parts of the seas to become acidic far faster than expected, threatening oysters and other shellfish."

Again not a positive feedback.

First lets begin to say that the oceans are basic with a pH of around 8.0-8.2.
Second the oceans are a large buffer.
Third rivers pH is lower and significantly so.

Fourth there is no reliably data and instruments to measure ocean pH.
http://oceanhealth.xprize.org/competition-details/overview

"The Market Failure

While ocean acidification is well documented in a few temperate ocean waters, little is known in high latitudes, coastal areas and the deep sea, and most current pH sensor technologies are too costly, imprecise, or unstable to allow for sufficient knowledge on the state of ocean acidification."

Fifth shell organisms evolved 250 millions ago when the CO2 concentration was far higher than today and had no problems developing shells.

Sixth no study (afaik) was able to dissolve shell organisms by only inserting CO2 in ocean water.

7."Thawing Tundra
Some carbon-cycle feedbacks that could vastly amplify climate change – especially a massive release of carbon and methane from thawing permafrost – are extremely hard to model.

Projection: In 2007, IPCC reported with “high confidence” that “methane emissions from tundra… and permafrost have accelerated in the past two decades, and are likely to accelerate further.” However, the IPCC offered no projections regarding permafrost melt.

Reality: Scientists estimate that the world’s permafrost holds 1.5 trillion tons of frozen carbon. That worries scientists: The Arctic is warming faster than anywhere else on earth, and researchers are seeing soil temperatures climb rapidly, too. Some permafrost degradation is already occurring.

Large-scale tundra wildfires in 2012 added to the concern.

Why the miss? This is controversial science, with some researchers saying the Arctic tundra is stable, others saying it will defrost only over long periods of time, and still more convinced we are on the verge of a tipping point, where the tundra thaws rapidly and catastrophically. A major 2005 study, for instance, warned that the entire top 11 feet of global permafrost could disappear by century's end, with potentially cataclysmic climate impacts. "

Finally a positive feedback example. Unfortunately it returns as a hand of nothing and considering that the temperature is raising slower than expected even though that CO2 concentration is rising more than expected, this positive feedback is nowhere to be seen.

8."Tipping points
The IPCC has been silent on tipping points – non-linear "light switch" moments when the climate system abruptly shifts from one paradigm to another.

Projection: IPCC has made no projections regarding tipping-point thresholds.

Reality: The scientific jury is still out as to whether we have reached any climate thresholds – a point of no return for, say, an ice-free Arctic, a Greenland meltdown, the slowing of the North Atlantic Ocean circulation, or permanent changes in large-scale weather patterns like the jet stream, El Niño or monsoons. The trouble with tipping points is they’re hard to spot until you’ve passed one.

Why the miss? Blame the computers: These non-linear events are notoriously hard to model. But with scientists recognizing the sizeable threat tipping points represent, they will be including some projections in the 2013-14 assessment."

Erm, something.

I'm sorry but I think you linked twice to the wrong place, because your links show no positive feedback mechanisms surfacing.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,700
406
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From the same source:

"Arctic vs. Antarctic"

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/difference.html

i.e., significant decrease for the arctic vs. a slight increase for the antarctic. The article also refers to

"Environment: Trends"

http://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/environment/trends.html

From the same site.

n_plot.png

s_plot.png


Poor Antarctic Ocean must feel discriminated.
Whenever people talk about global warming they use the north pole but not the south pole. Is it Global warming or is it North Pole Warming?

Doesn't seem that slight increase now, does it?

In fact the only way for the Global Sea Ice to have increased is for the Antarctic gains surpass the Arctic losses.

global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg

Now this is both oceans combined.


Finally, related information from the same site:

On global warming and sea ice extent:

http://nsidc.org/news/press/day_after/q2.html

FAQ on sea ice extent, etc:

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/faq/#studying_sea_ice

Why words when the numbers talk without any bias?
 
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