Global Warming Scientists Trapped in Antarctic Ice

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,732
10,037
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One additional note:

The main focus of climate change efforts in the political sphere should be finding ways to go around the denier community and mitigate the damage that they can do. We've tried convincing people for decades with the science but it seems more like an emotional rejection at this point. There's no arguing with that.

Good luck with that. With your assault on our economy. Good luck convincing the developing world to condemn billions of people to poverty and despair.

All this talk of bypassing us is cute and all, but even if you removed the US and Europe off the face of the earth, CO2 still = prosperity. There are billions waiting for it, to live the life we have lived. You will not stop them. CO2 will continue to rise for centuries to come.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
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Sure there does, you need propaganda like the BEST "study". Headed by a "skeptic" that has been an alarmist for 30+ years. You need this propaganda because ALL you have is a correlation. We warmed for some 20 years, 20-30 years go. During the 80s and 90s. That short term trend looks like a disaster when linearly extrapolated, ignoring all natural factors.

If you ignore science, Global Warming can be made to appear a disaster. You NEED to pound the news stories, repeatedly and frequently. Nothing else will sell your hollow fears. That is why things like the hockey stick are fabricated.

It's funny because the very guy you are claiming is some secret 'alarmist' plant is someone who came out against the 'hockey stick' itself. None of this surprises me though, you think a guy who did a study whose single largest funder was the Koch brothers is really just a conspiratorial plant.

This is what I mean when I say you reject science. As soon as you get even more inconvenient information the source just becomes part of the conspiracy.

Yeah, since the 80s and 90s. Prior to that it was an ice age scare. Gee, I wonder why that is. You alarmists take a short 20 year trend and foretell the end of the world. Lucky for us you cannot sweep the news stories from the 70s under the rug. Nor can you deny the more truthful IPCC reports of that past which CLEARLY show a greater Medieval Warm Period, or that the Northern Hemisphere had been cooling before the 80s.

This is a baffling lack of understanding of how the scientific community works. I don't understand what you possibly think a single scientist saying something wrong would mean. Additionally, if you have somehow bought into the 'global cooling scare' nonsense you need to start reading more objective sources. That is a right wing myth.

I agree. As CO2 continues to rise faster than expected, business as usual, the mountain of evidence that temperature of not trending with it at even half the rate you expect becomes crystal clear. With a natural warming once every 50 or 60 years your days are numbered. By the time the 2040s roll around the real implication of CO2 will be well known, and no one in their right mind will care about its minimal effect on temperature.

Which of us is the denier, I wonder. There is much about science you deftly ignore.

Interesting how you only quote climate denier blogs instead of actual scientific research on the subject. I wonder why that is. I don't ignore any of the science, that's what accepting the science is all about. There are plenty of uncertanties about the specifics of climate change, but the fundamental principles continue to be reinforced by study after study after study.

This isn't emotional or personal for me. I wish the science were wrong because then we would be able to save a ton of money that we could use for better things. I'm not willing to wish away inconvenient facts however, and the longer we allow irresponsible people to prevent us from dealing with this problem the higher the bill will be.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
One additional note:

Good luck with that. With your assault on our economy. Good luck convincing the developing world to condemn billions of people to poverty and despair.

All this talk of bypassing us is cute and all, but even if you removed the US and Europe off the face of the earth, CO2 still = prosperity. There are billions waiting for it, to live the life we have lived. You will not stop them. CO2 will continue to rise for centuries to come.

It may, it may not. I certainly wouldn't attempt to make a prediction so foolish as to say what humans will be using for power centuries from now but if you feel comfortable doing so that's your business.

The question isn't about stopping global warming, it's too late for that. We are just trying to mitigate it as much as possible.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Eski,

BOTTOM LINE: What scientific evidence do you have that AWG/CO2 will negatively impact human civilization? Common sense and observation tell me that a warming earth is an earth more conducive to life. This is backed up by the scientific evidence of yearly growing crop yields on ever shrinking tracts of lands, the exploding human population and the overall greening of the planet.

In the world I live, things improve year by year. You tell me things are about to fall apart completely and I see no evidence of it. A crystal ball is a crystal ball no matter how much scientific language you want to dress it up in. You guys sound no different than the cornerside preacher telling us about the end of the world. Predicting catastrophe and cataclysm seems to be an inborn human trait...
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
Eski,

BOTTOM LINE: What scientific evidence do you have that AWG/CO2 will negatively impact human civilization? Common sense and observation tell me that a warming earth is an earth more conducive to life. This is backed up by the scientific evidence of yearly growing crop yields on ever shrinking tracts of lands, the exploding human population and the overall greening of the planet.

In the world I live, things improve year by year. You tell me things are about to fall apart completely and I see no evidence of it. A crystal ball is a crystal ball no matter how much scientific language you want to dress it up in. You guys sound no different than the cornerside preacher telling us about the end of the world. Predicting catastrophe and cataclysm seems to be an inborn human trait...

Its a whole lot easier to understand the back end of his thought process if you recognize that to him global warming is a religion.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
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Its a whole lot easier to understand the back end of his thought process if you recognize that to him global warming is a religion.

I always love this attempt at projection. Only in the denialist community is the acceptance of the judgment of the overwhelming majority of experts and scientific literature in a field 'religion'. The rejection of science by the amateur community on the internet on the other hand, is sober and scientific reflection.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Don't mistake the dismissal of your spin for spin of my own. Direct quote from Mueller:
He stated his opinion in that quote. The BEST study in no way proves AGW and he explicitly said so himself. Curry (co-author of the BEST project) was "horrified" and disassociated herself from the project after hearing several of his media quotes.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,732
10,037
136
It's funny because the very guy you are claiming is some secret 'alarmist' plant is someone who came out against the 'hockey stick' itself. None of this surprises me though, you think a guy who did a study whose single largest funder was the Koch brothers is really just a conspiratorial plant.

This is what I mean when I say you reject science. As soon as you get even more inconvenient information the source just becomes part of the conspiracy.

So you are a denier. Richard Muller's own words could not be clearer.

Try reading them, however difficult that may be for you.
"back in the early ’80s, I resigned from the Sierra Club over the issue of global warming. At that time, they were opposing nuclear power. What I wrote them in my letter of resignation was that, if you oppose nuclear power, the U.S. will become much more heavily dependent on fossil fuels, and that this is a pollutant to the atmosphere that is very likely to lead to global warming.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
One additional note:

Good luck with that. With your assault on our economy. Good luck convincing the developing world to condemn billions of people to poverty and despair.

All this talk of bypassing us is cute and all, but even if you removed the US and Europe off the face of the earth, CO2 still = prosperity. There are billions waiting for it, to live the life we have lived. You will not stop them. CO2 will continue to rise for centuries to come.
CO2 does not necessarily have to equal prosperity. Providing a third world village with point-of-use solar is cleaner than providing that village with a diesel generator, but it may also eat less, giving them some of the benefits of the modern world's infrastructure while leaving them more resources to put toward improving their lives. (Assuming that periodically replacing batteries and solar panels costs less than buying fuel and maintaining a generator.) Same thing with highly efficient equipment and superinsulation - a township with buses averaging 4 mpg and homes using 200 kwh is not necessarily more prosperous than an equivalent township with buses averaging 8 mpg and homes using 100 kwh. Arguably the opposite is true.

The international push is for "restitution" for climate change, a plan which will do nothing more than move money from poor people in rich nations to rich people in poor nations. However, there are certainly situations where we can well serve both environmental and developmental concerns, if only each side can give up some of its sacred cows. Case in point, distributing very low power laptops with solar charging allows kids (or adults) in villages with little or no electricity to benefit from the accumulated knowledge of all mankind. Which granted is mostly porn, but still.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
55,288
136
He stated his opinion in that quote. The BEST study in no way proves AGW and he explicitly said so himself. Curry (co-author of the BEST project) was "horrified" and disassociated herself from the project after hearing several of his media quotes.

Of course it doesn't 'prove' AGW. I bet if you asked him about any single study into AGW he would give you the same answer. Again though, if you have issues with the lead author's interpretation of his work, talk to him. You're pulling the 'it's just a theory' argument that creationists frequently use.

As for Judith Curry, I'm sure she is horrified about all sorts of things about climate change. She is the go-to source for the denier community.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Of course it doesn't 'prove' AGW. I bet if you asked him about any single study into AGW he would give you the same answer. Again though, if you have issues with the lead author's interpretation of his work, talk to him. You're pulling the 'it's just a theory' argument that creationists frequently use.
That's exactly what I said in the first place. :rolleyes:

As for Judith Curry, I'm sure she is horrified about all sorts of things about climate change. She is the go-to source for the denier community.
FYI, Judith Curry is not a denier....and, for the record, neither am I.

http://www.npr.org/2013/08/22/213894792/uncertain-science-judith-currys-take-on-climate-change

Curry actually entered the public eye in 2005, with a paper in Science magazine warning that hurricanes were likely to become more intense as a result of climate change. But in the years since then, she's soured on the scientific consensus about climate change. Her mantra now is, "We just don't know."

This message plays well in the House of Representatives, so it's no surprise that Curry was called to testify at a subcommittee hearing there this spring.

Curry certainly has the credentials. She is a professor and chairwoman of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology. She also runs a side business as a private weather forecaster. But she doesn't deny the basic principles of climate change.

"If all other things remain equal, it's clear that adding more carbon dioxide to the atmosphere will warm the planet," she told the committee.

Curry says her 2005 hurricanes paper "generated a lot of media attention which we were ill-prepared to deal with," she says. "We were being attacked by the anti-global-warming crowd as well as a large number of people in the hurricane community who thought this was natural variability."

And that was just her first taste of the rough-and-tumble climate debate. A few years later, an apparent hacker released a lot of private email conversations among climate scientists involved with the United Nations climate assessment, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. Curry stepped into the middle of this and started engaging some of the skeptics.

"I took it upon myself to try to calm the waters I bit. I thought, 'Oh my gosh, this could really blow, and this would not be a good thing for climate science or the IPCC,' so I wrote an essay on the credibility of climate science."

She published that online.

Her philosophy, then and now, is that if climate scientists would more readily acknowledge the uncertainties inherent in the issue, skeptics would more likely accept the well-established central tenets of global warming.

To give one example, she says human activities are contributing to global warming, but she bridles at the IPCC consensus that humans are "largely responsible" — in other words, that more than 50 percent of global warming to date is caused by human activity.

"It might be around 50 percent or even a little less. I mean this is what we don't know" she says.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,935
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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That's exactly what I said in the first place. :rolleyes:
SNIP
Yes, but you must then go on to add that of course it proves AGW or it doesn't count.

It's a simple concept: Admit that it doesn't prove AGW and then immediately insist that of course it proves AGW.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Were,

BOTTOM LINE: What scientific evidence do you have that AWG/CO2 will negatively impact human civilization? It is a matter of documented fact that it has benefited man thus far.
 
Apr 27, 2012
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These scientists were foolish enough to believe this crap and they were proven wrong big time. These idiots should have to pay for the rescue and not the taxpayers.

Also gotta love the MSM trying to downplay what happened.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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These scientists were foolish enough to believe this crap and they were proven wrong big time. These idiots should have to pay for the rescue and not the taxpayers.

Also gotta love the MSM trying to downplay what happened.
I don't start many threads here and would appreciate it if you would not post in these threads. Your posting style acts as a lightning rod to like-minded liberals who are more interested in trading insults with strawman personas than contributing to discussion. I'm not trying to personally attack you, but I find your current posting style to be very destructive to this forum and I sincerely hope you make an effort to improve.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Were,

BOTTOM LINE: What scientific evidence do you have that AWG/CO2 will negatively impact human civilization? It is a matter of documented fact that it has benefited man thus far.
Really, none yet on a large scale basis. However, there are incremental effects from high CO2, principally in marine reef systems. Reefs (particularly tropical reefs) are highly productive, very competitive environments with relatively stable environmental parameters, so most organisms put little energy into mechanisms to cope with changing PH or temperature or hardness. An increasingly higher CO2 necessarily means a more acidic environment, which means a slightly less friendly and less productive environment. By itself not a big thing, but it's on top of other known stressors such as chemical pollution and siltation. Global warming, man-made or otherwise, is an additional stressor, leading to blanching where reefs die back. Now clearly reef-building corals have experienced warmer temperatures as reefs take thousands of years to form and the Medieval Warm Period was warmer than today, but the warmth on top of acidification, chemical pollution and siltation is causing trouble. Should these reefs crash - and no one really knows if they will or not, but we have observed extensive blanching - then a major food source disappears. Zooplankters in much of the ocean feed on gametes from reef-building corals which especially in the tropics broadcast continually with vanishingly low success; little fish feed on these, and big fish feed on those. Lose the base and the entire ocean's productivity takes a big hit, and we're already fishing far down the food chain. This will materially reduce wealth world wide as fishing is primary production (from the economic view - obviously not from the ecological view.)

Aquatic systems can typically take much more variation in acidity, but do not have the ocean's vast buffering capacity either, so PH can rapidly drop to levels toxic or inhibitory to fish and other fauna. Even most aquatic plants cannot handle PH below mid fives, even those which never use bicarbonates. We've already seen streams wiped out and lakes greatly damaged from acidity due to acidic mining tailings (generally streams only) and acid rain from sulfur-rich coal; acidity caused by CO2 will have the same effect. Even hard water streams and lakes can be devastated by excess acidity. Just look at swamps, which are very limited in fauna and flora. CO2 concentrations directly cause acidity, the extent of the swing depending on buffering content, usually though not always parallel to hardness, so to some extent high atmospheric CO2 concentrations will parallel the effects of acid rain. While this may not have too great an economic effect of people, it will certainly leave us with a more poor world. A stream where mayflies have been replaced by rat-tailed grubs is not one you've want to visit with your kids. In general, extremes of PH are like extremes of temperature - there simply aren't many species which can handle the extremes.

For warming in particular, I don't believe in the CAGW weather extremes currently being pushed, but there are other direct effects. Those people who live very close to sea level will be displaced as sea levels rise. Nations like Bangladesh and much of Indonesia and smaller island nations may well cease to exist, particularly those on subsiding shelfs. Nations and areas whose water principally comes from glacier melt will likely run short, forcing us to adopt more stringent conservation methods and also pipe in water. None of this is catastrophic for the species or the Earth, but all take energy and wealth to overcome.

In general, you are correct that warmer periods are more productive periods, although the winners and losers may change drastically as previously fertile areas experience persistent drought and previously cold, dry regions become warmer and wetter. In general, higher CO2 is more productive as well. But too much of anything is a problem. Mankind will adapt; we are the apex predator, after all. Yet whatever wealth we spend adapting is wealth we cannot spend on other things. As for global warming effects seen now, there aren't a lot. Off the top of my head, destruction of forest due to various bark beetles able to extend their range north due to warmer winters is one, especially in Alaska. Also in Alaska, a lot of money is being spent to redo roads which were laid on permafrost with the assumption that it would always be permafrost. Mostly it's incremental things which can be projected to cause problems. Many of these problems from warming would eventually occur anyway in all likelihood as the Earth warms from the last ice age. Ice age glaciers obviously aren't going to last forever, for instance. Yet the longer they take to occur, the better off we are to likely to be to handle them.
 
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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
Again though, that's a meaningless statement. No study will 'prove' AGW.



I'm aware that Curry is not a denier, I've said so myself on here. She is still the go-to resource for climate deniers.

Of course no study will "prove" CAGW, it's because it doesn't exist.

Curry is also testifying in the Senate about the asshole Obama's tax and tax and tax carbon climate action plan.

http://judithcurry.com/2014/01/13/forthcoming-senate-epw-hearing-on-presidents-climate-action-plan/
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
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Were,

And that's the rub isn't it? The steps to mitigate against climate change have immediate negative effects on people living today. They cause more starvation and more poverty, right here and right now. This point is not even in dispute. For me, the amount of suffering that AGW proponents are asking civilization to suffer in the present is far too great based on the less than convincing premise that AGW may prove catastrophic at some point in time LONG LONG LONG after I am dead.

I would think civilization would be more worried about nuclear proliferation than global warming.... and yet we aren't spending trillions of dollars to prevent it. I would peg the chances of a nuclear attack somewhere in the world in the next 100 years as close to 100 percent, it just seems inevitable. After some rogue state or organization detonates a nuclear device, AGW as a fear mongering device will become instant history. Then we will understand the difference between REAL threat and perceived threat.

PS. You make good points regarding ocean acidification, that is something I honestly know nothing about. I hadn't heard that argument before you brought it up.
 
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TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
I always love this attempt at projection. Only in the denialist community is the acceptance of the judgment of the overwhelming majority of experts and scientific literature in a field 'religion'. The rejection of science by the amateur community on the internet on the other hand, is sober and scientific reflection.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

And uclers are caused by stress. Amirite?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,732
10,037
136
CO2 does not necessarily have to equal prosperity. Providing a third world village with point-of-use solar is cleaner than providing that village with a diesel generator, but it may also eat less, giving them some of the benefits of the modern world's infrastructure while leaving them more resources to put toward improving their lives. (Assuming that periodically replacing batteries and solar panels costs less than buying fuel and maintaining a generator.) Same thing with highly efficient equipment and superinsulation - a township with buses averaging 4 mpg and homes using 200 kwh is not necessarily more prosperous than an equivalent township with buses averaging 8 mpg and homes using 100 kwh. Arguably the opposite is true.

The international push is for "restitution" for climate change, a plan which will do nothing more than move money from poor people in rich nations to rich people in poor nations. However, there are certainly situations where we can well serve both environmental and developmental concerns, if only each side can give up some of its sacred cows. Case in point, distributing very low power laptops with solar charging allows kids (or adults) in villages with little or no electricity to benefit from the accumulated knowledge of all mankind. Which granted is mostly porn, but still.

It is not up to us to tell them how to live. How to develop. A few power cells? They're going to consume far more than that, are they not? Just look at China's growth as a model for the world's population.

It's going to take a slow and steady technological advance to slow down CO2 emission, it may take the mastery of fusion to truly replace it. We are hundreds of years away, but thankfully, we have hundreds of years until we reach Jurassic levels of CO2.

We're retreading old atmospheric territory with nothing to fear. If you remove the natural rise in temperature which appears to occur every 50-60 years you'll see a very small but discernible CO2 signal. Far below anything they speak of.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Were,

And that's the rub isn't it? The steps to mitigate against climate change have immediate negative effects on people living today. They cause more starvation and more poverty, right here and right now. This point is not even in dispute. For me, the amount of suffering that AGW proponents are asking civilization to suffer in the present is far too great based on the less than convincing premise that AGW may prove catastrophic at some point in time LONG LONG LONG after I am dead.

I would think civilization would be more worried about nuclear proliferation than global warming.... and yet we aren't spending trillions of dollars to prevent it. I would peg the chances of a nuclear attack somewhere in the world in the next 100 years as close to 100 percent, it just seems inevitable. After some rogue state or organization detonates a nuclear device, AGW as a fear mongering device will become instant history. Then we will understand the difference between REAL threat and perceived threat.

PS. You make good points regarding ocean acidification, that is something I honestly know nothing about. I hadn't heard that argument before you brought it up.
Both concerns are valid, and complicated by serious attempts to gain power (the U.N.) and wealth ("developing" nations.) Both are counter-productive. Both will merely spread misery. If I had my druthers, we'd attack this problem on five fronts:
1. Improving energy efficiency in developed nations, principally the USA. We lag far behind most nations in energy efficiency simply because we've never made our energy artificially expensive and being both highly technical and with rich, unexploited natural resources, our energy has been unusually cheap. Where energy efficiency can be attained cheaply or at parity, we need to adopt it now. Where energy efficiency cannot be attained at a reasonable cost, we need research to bring the cost down or develop alternative methods.
2. Intense research into clean energy, principally solar and nuclear. Ultimately we'll need breeders and then fusion, but adopting the safer Canadian nuclear technology or thorium reactors would go a long way toward reducing our fossil fuel use. Given the highly destructive, widespread environmental disaster possible with nuclear, safety needs to be our first concern.
3. Intense research into capturing thermal radiative energy as we can SWIR and visible light energy. Waste heat is both resource intensive and environmentally damaging to remove, so being able to economically capture and use this waste heat would be doubly useful. I think this is the killer app of the twenty-first century.
4. Intense research into capturing atmospheric carbon. Carbon is incredibly useful, and if we can learn to trap and utilize CO2 for the carbon (and hopefully the oxygen, of which we also use a great deal) we can utilize carbon for reinforcing fibers, nanotubes, buckyballs, graphite, etc.
5. Providing clean energy like solar to the developing world to forestall them developing a fossil fuel society. Or more practically, to limit it; fossil fuels are simply too useful to avoid completely. Some like India have the industrial base to produce their own, in which case I'd prefer to see US aid in the form of paying the royalties rather than simply giving India money. Others could be given American-made devices. We still have a lot of work to do boosting efficiency and affordability, but honestly the biggest problems are overcoming these nations' desire to have cash and preventing production from being based on political favor rather than on merit.

All of these are at least dual use; even providing clean energy to the developing world gives us cleaner air, and anything that improves energy efficiency provides significant improvements in productivity. Progress is driven by cheap energy, period, but energy can also be made cheaper by using less of it. These are all useful advances even if global warming proves to be nothing more than a poorly understood long natural climate cycle. Right now we're concentrating on "carbon offsets", which reward rich resource owners in poor nations and ironically make those nations' poor less valuable to the rich people in their own countries. Why invest in a factory if you can make just as much money planting (or just not cutting) trees on your land? I'm all for preserving the rain forests, but not structured so that we end up making the common man around them even more poor. Ironically we saw the same thing in medieval England after the Black Death so raised labor rates. Many land owners, unable to afford the new higher costs of labor, shifted land use to raising sheep which is much less labor intensive. Thus a lot of peasants and serfs were kicked off the land they farmed and impoverished even though as a class they prospered. If we aren't careful we'll do the same in America by making energy so expensive that our remaining production flees to third world nations.

We're also handing out foreign aid to be distributed top-down, which seldom works. Africa has grown deeper into poverty even though the Sahara is greening, although admittedly AIDS has had much more of a role than has our aid structure. What we need is bottom-up aid that will allow people in the villages to be more productive, so that their excess production can be used to lift them up. If we can do this in a way that's clean and sustainable, we'll be better off regardless of whether CAGW has any basis in reality.

I will say one thing in support of climate research though. If we could gain the knowledge to predict global weather patterns a few years out, it would have vast payback in crop selection alone. Likely be a dry year? Try this drought resistant strain of wheat. We are not at all close to that point - and it might not even be technically possible - but it's certainly a long term goal.

Regarding your point about nuclear weapons, I'll be vastly surprised if there is not a nuclear attack within my lifetime, which will be considerably less than half a hundred years. Too many failing nations are armed with them; too many terrorist groups want them.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
It is not up to us to tell them how to live. How to develop. A few power cells? They're going to consume far more than that, are they not? Just look at China's growth as a model for the world's population.

It's going to take a slow and steady technological advance to slow down CO2 emission, it may take the mastery of fusion to truly replace it. We are hundreds of years away, but thankfully, we have hundreds of years until we reach Jurassic levels of CO2.

We're retreading old atmospheric territory with nothing to fear. If you remove the natural rise in temperature which appears to occur every 50-60 years you'll see a very small but discernible CO2 signal. Far below anything they speak of.
I don't think we have hundreds of years before we're seeing serious environmental consequences from high atmospheric CO2. Let's consider a simple aquatic system. DIC is governed by a simple continuum:
CO2 + H2O ::: H2CO3 ::: H+ + HCO3 ::: CO32- + 2H-
Hopefully basic chemistry will overcome my Nook's font limitations. As CO2 (or really any acid) is added, the equation shifts right and the water becomes more acidic and depleted of bicarbonates. How quickly this happens depends on the water's buffering capacity. Softwater has little buffering capacity, so the equation shifts right quickly and the water can become quite acidic. CO2 diffusion at historically high levels may well cause a softwater stream to drop into swamp PH range, especially given that ammonia toxicity is much greater and bacterial action is greatly inhibited. There's a reason why decomposition stops in very acidic swamps - not much lives in those PH levels, including decomposition bacteria. We've already seen that effect in mountain streams where due to acidification the entire ecosystem is dead. These are due to acidic mining tailings and at Copper Hill/Ocoee River drainage due to acid rain from sulfur, but we've seen lakes do the same thing due to acid rain from high sulfur coal in power plants. Enough of any acid does the trick, and dissolved CO2 is an acid. My chemistry (and crystal ball) are not strong enough to say at what level CO2 we begin losing species, but many are already endangered due to pollution and habitat loss, and for obligate dwellers of very soft water only a small extra push may wipe them out.

Obviously marine systems are a lot harder to shift due to the oceans' massive buffering capacity, but outside of littoral transition zones the organisms also tend to be a lot less tolerant of swings in PH and hardness.

Again, I'm no CAGW alarmist. We're only now seeing mines and villages emerge from the ice which were worked and occupied as late as the fourteenth century, our U.S. plant hardiness zones have not fully recovered from twentieth century shifts from cooling, and I doubt anyone would argue that England is once again suitable for commercial wineries to flourish. Yet that doesn't mean we won't face problems from high CO2 or even from warmer temperatures, given that our land use patterns are governed by twentieth century means.
 
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