Give this guy a medal

[dabuddha]

I studied at a "madrassah" and I have no doubt that I'm more educated than you. I.E dabuddha. Ironically buddha means idiot in Urdu.

Sure you are 😉 You tell yourself whatever you need to to feel good about your shit hole of a country 🙂

 

[DesiPower]

John Kerry will now kick some good old beloved patriot ass, American style... get ready b1tches...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/16/raymond-davis-john-kerry

 

[Zargon]

Sure you are 😉 You tell yourself whatever you need to to feel good about your shit hole of a country 🙂

for real.

 

[Nebor]

The government is too weak to do so. The ex-foreign minister is undermining the governments efforts to free Davis. After the public apologies, I'm leaning towards releasing Davis. It's not worth our time to be bickering over one man. But steps to make sure this never happens again need to be taken. The consulate staff must be reduced and must not be allowed to carry any kind of weapons. Furthermore, a fair and free public trial must be promised. I don't trust the American legal system.

Latest: http://tribune.com.pk/story/119713/court-to-decide-raymond-davis-immunity-gilani/

The PM says the matter will be decided in court unless the family of the victims accept a compensation in accordance with Islamic laws.

Our "consulate staff" must be armed. State department security is essentially a little state department controlled military. They're heavily armed and virtually all of them are ex military officers. Their job is to protect our diplomats abroad in dangerous, violent parts of the world like Pakistan.

Honestly I think it'd be hilarious if your country started rioting or kicked off a civil war over an American shooting a couple of people in your country. :biggrin:

 

[The Green Bean]

Our "consulate staff" must be armed. State department security is essentially a little state department controlled military. They're heavily armed and virtually all of them are ex military officers. Their job is to protect our diplomats abroad in dangerous, violent parts of the world like Pakistan.

Honestly I think it'd be hilarious if your country started rioting or kicked off a civil war over an American shooting a couple of people in your country. :biggrin:

The point is that it's illegal. Americans can't go around doing whatever they feel like or they'll get into trouble.

There is no chance for a civil war. The people are upset over the government's rule especially its handling over the economy. The media is acting like idiots and are actually calling for a revolution. Every time there is an issue they say the government's going to fall. Surprisingly, most of the protests have civilized.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

The point is that it's illegal. Americans can't go around doing whatever they feel like.

From what my friends in the military say, thats exactly what we do. LOL

Your government doesnt, or wont (or more likely cant) do anything about it either. If you piss us off, good luck because whatever aid you got will go straight to India.

 

[Nebor]

The point is that it's illegal. Americans can't go around doing whatever they feel like or they'll get into trouble.

There is no chance for a civil war. The people are upset over the government's rule especially its handling over the economy. The media is acting like idiots and are actually calling for a revolution. Every time there is an issue they say the government's going to fall. Surprisingly, most of the protests have civilized.

We've been doing whatever we wanted all around the world for the last 50 years with no repercussions. Overthrowing democracies, arming terrorists, torturing the innocent, etc.

And your government is going to smile and hand our man back over, because otherwise those billions in foreign aid will go to India instead of you.

 

[Nebor]

From what my friends in the military say, thats exactly what we do. LOL

I just saw a video the other day of an M1 Abrams plowing through a mudbrick village in Iraq like it was nothing. Through houses, through walls, across culverts. Apparently some Iraqi kids were throwing rocks at the tank, and the commander's guidance was that that behavior was the building blocks of an insurgent mindset, and those kids were to be chased, caught and disciplined. The kids ran through the houses, over the walls, across the culverts... :biggrin:

 

[The Green Bean]

From what my friends in the military say, thats exactly what we do. LOL

Your government doesnt, or wont (or more likely cant) do anything about it either. If you piss us off, good luck because whatever aid you got will go straight to India.

It's about time we stopped depending on you for aid. Your foreign policy is too unstable. We're old enough to move out of our mom's basement.

 

[The Green Bean]

We've been doing whatever we wanted all around the world for the last 50 years with no repercussions. Overthrowing democracies, arming terrorists, torturing the innocent, etc.

And your government is going to smile and hand our man back over, because otherwise those billions in foreign aid will go to India instead of you.

Empires fall and the events since 9/11 have been a signal for the fall of the USA. In fact, America has already fallen.

Technically you are poorer than us. How many trillions is your national debt? Good luck paying for it...

 

[Nebor]

Empires fall and the events since 9/11 have been a signal for the fall of the USA. In fact, America has already fallen.

Technically you are poorer than us. How many trillions is your national debt? Good luck paying for it...

Our empire's not going anywhere. We're too big to fail. :ninja:

 

[dabuddha]

Empires fall and the events since 9/11 have been a signal for the fall of the USA. In fact, America has already fallen.

Technically you are poorer than us. How many trillions is your national debt? Good luck paying for it...

Yep and Pakistan is ready to step up and become the new world super power!

I just thought I'd add to the delusional rantings 🙂

 

[Zargon]

Yep and Pakistan is ready to step up and become the new world super power!

I just thought I'd add to the delusional rantings 🙂

you mean the future region called NW India :ninja:



well lets be honest, its more likely than Pakistan the superpower 😳

 

[The Green Bean]

For those of you who don't trust the Pakistan media, they should read this article on BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12491288

17 February 2011 Last updated at 06:15 ET

Q&A: Lahore shootings - unanswered questions
Related Stories

* Lahore shootings fuel US-Pakistan row
* US man shot pair 'in cold blood'
* US demands release over shooting

A court in Pakistan has delayed a hearing to decide whether an American who shot dead two men in Lahore last month has diplomatic immunity. The arrest of Raymond Davis has severely damaged relations between the countries. Much of the detail in the case remains unclear - the BBC's Syed Shoaib Hasan looks at some of the unanswered questions.

Is Raymond Davis a diplomat?

If you are thinking of a suavely dressed man in a three-piece suit who holds meetings with local officials to further or broaden his country's agenda, you would be wrong. Mr Davis was definitely not employed for his diplomatic skills - he is more a "hands-on" person, working in what the US embassy says is its "administrative and technical affairs section". Reports from the US say he is a former special forces soldier who left the military in 2003 and is working for the US embassy in Pakistan. As such, the US insists he is covered by the Vienna Convention which guarantees immunity from prosecution for all diplomatic staff.

Could he be a spy?

Many Pakistanis believe he is - there seem few other credible explanations as to why he was going around Lahore with a Glock pistol in a car with local number plates without informing local authorities. It is a requirement for embassy staff - especially those from Western embassies - to inform local police of their movements, simply because they are prime targets for militants in Pakistan. Mr Davis's department in the US embassy is widely seen in Pakistan as a cover for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operations. Mr Davis himself said he was a consultant employed by the US government. Researchers in the US say that since leaving the military, Mr Davis worked for a security firm called Hyperion LLC. But subsequent investigations by the US media have now shown that Hyperion exists only as a website. The offices that the company says it has in Orlando have been vacant for several years and the numbers on its website are unlisted.
Raymond Davis Mr Davis insists he was acting in self-defence

Can Mr Davis be convicted for the murders?

Maybe. It all depends on how eager the Pakistani authorities are to punish him. The fact that he is possibly a spy does not mean he is not covered by diplomatic immunity. It is common practice for intelligence services across the world to send operatives under the cover of assignments to embassies. Both Pakistani and US "diplomats" have been caught in such situations - and every time have been asked to leave the host country immediately with no possibility of a return. That is the maximum punishment that has been levied in the overwhelming majority of cases in countries which have signed the Vienna Convention. However, in some countries there are exceptions for serious offences committed, such as murder. Pakistan is one of those countries. The matter is now in the hands of the judiciary. But it is important to remember that Mr Davis has been charged with murder - the maximum sentence here is the death penalty.

Should Mr Davis have been carrying a gun?

Legally speaking, only Pakistani citizens with licences issued by the interior ministry are allowed to carry arms. No foreigner is allowed to carry arms, except soldiers or guards within the premises of an embassy. Both Pakistani nationals and foreigners caught carrying arms can be charged under a Pakistani criminal law which stipulates a jail term of six months to two years in addition to a fine. Mr Davis has also been charged under this law.
Shumaila, widow of Mohammad Faheem, in hospital before her death Matters were further inflamed by the suicide of the widow of one of the men killed by Mr Davis

Was he acting in self-defence?

That was the initial plea made by Mr Davis and the US embassy. However, subsequent investigations by the police, forensic labs and the local and international media suggest that the two men were driving away from Mr Davis when they were shot. In February Lahore's police chief said that Mr Davis was guilty of "cold-blooded murder" - he said that no fingerprints had been uncovered on the triggers of the pistols found on the bodies of the two men. Furthermore he said that tests had shown that the bullets remained in the magazines of their guns, not the chambers, suggesting they weren't about to shoot him. On the face of it, this leaves Mr Davis's claim that they were robbers - with one even apparently cocking a gun at his head - looking very thin. In addition, police say ballistics evidence shows that the pair were shot in the back - which again suggests they were moving away from Mr Davis, rather than about to attack him.

Who were the Pakistanis that Mr Davis shot?

In his initial statement, Mr Davis said they were robbers who were trying to steal his valuables. He and the US embassy have maintained this story. However, the men have no criminal records as such. Both have been identified as residents of Lahore by the police. The pair were carrying licensed pistols - a fact which led many to believe they might indeed have been robbers. However, security sources in Lahore say that they were part-time or low-level operatives for the local intelligence services. Although reports are sketchy about what they were doing in relation to Mr Davis, security officials believe it could be the case of a surveillance operation gone horribly wrong. Pakistani intelligence services routinely tail and monitor all embassy staff, Western or otherwise.
The motorbike of the third man killed in the incident A third man on his motorbike was killed in the incident by a mystery US car

What about the second car and its victim?

A side event to the main drama concerning Mr Davis was the fact a third man was also killed during the incident. He was an innocent bystander run over by a US embassy vehicle, which was initially said to have arrived to rescue Mr Davis. The fact that an embassy vehicle was able to get to the spot so quickly was a source of astonishment to anyone who is even vaguely aware of the geography of Lahore. Given the incident was over within minutes, it seems incredible that anyone could negotiate the 12km (7.4-mile) 40-minute drive in peak traffic in less than five minutes. But subsequent investigations have now shown that the second car - a Toyota Landcruiser - was with Mr Davis at the time of the incident. In fact, according to eyewitnesses, Mr Davis was leading and clearing the way for the Toyota when the incident took place. In the light of what happened afterwards, it seems Mr Davis was in "protective mode" and opened fire to "secure" whoever or whatever was in the Toyota - the interior of this vehicle was not visible as its windows were tinted. It is evident in local TV footage that the second vehicle is going away from Mr Davis at the time of the incident. As it disappears into the dust, Mr Davis calmly pulls over and gives himself up. Pakistani authorities have asked for the Landcruiser and its driver to be handed over - a request with which the US has yet to comply.

What about behind-the-scenes negotiations?

As well as public pressure, US officials have also privately warned Pakistan's government of far-reaching and severe consequences if Mr Davis is convicted. Unnamed US officials have also used the media to issue veiled warnings to Pakistan that diplomatic ties could be cut and all aid stopped. Despite Islamabad's public stance on Mr Davis, Pakistani officials are said to have privately assured Washington that he will eventually be released. However, public pressure means that at the moment this could lead to a massive anti-government backlash. Pakistan's Prime Minister, Yousuf Raza Gilani, has hinted that blood money could be paid to the families of the two men Mr Davis admits shooting, which could enable his release. There is speculation that US officials may try to establish contacts with the families in this regard. However, it is not clear that Mr Davis has been charged under laws which would allow blood money to be paid.

The Lahore High Court has also issued an arrest warrant for the American driver of the car who ran over the third victim. However, the American media reports that he has been smuggled to America safely.

The Pakistani media seems to have lost its obsession over Raymond Davis and he is no longer the main issue here. I think the ball is in the court's court. America is looking sillier by the day and now Obama's credibility is at stake. IF this goes to an international court and the verdict is that Davis did not have immunity...

I know most imperialists on this forum will resort to the "because we are bigger than you" rhetoric, but that doesn't make them right.

 

[davmat787]

Green Bean: Do you think Pakistan has intelligence operatives in the US or other countries, under the guise of working at the embassy? I am not saying this excuses any behaviour on Davis' part, just curious.

Also, if Davis did indeed do this in cold blood, why? Why then stay and not resist arrest? I doubt someone would simply decide to shoot two for no reason, especially when the international ramifications are obvious and relationship with PAK is at stake. I am guessing the truth lies in the middle somewhere, as is often the case. It is hard to blame Joe PAK for wanting retribution, and at the same time it is hard to blame the US for not simply wanting to walk away from Davis and let him be at the mercy of the PAK.

Tough situation all around.

 

[Nebor]

I think it's funny that TGB still talks as if this is going to go to court, when his own article says the Pakistan government is just waiting for the heat to die down before they hand him over.

 

[The Green Bean]

Green Bean: Do you think Pakistan has intelligence operatives in the US or other countries, under the guise of working at the embassy? I am not saying this excuses any behaviour on Davis' part, just curious.

Probably yes; that does not make them right. But I think they are smart enough to have him under the guise of an actual diplomat 😉

Also, if Davis did indeed do this in cold blood, why? Why then stay and not resist arrest? I doubt someone would simply decide to shoot two for no reason, especially when the international ramifications are obvious and relationship with PAK is at stake. I am guessing the truth lies in the middle somewhere, as is often the case. It is hard to blame Joe PAK for wanting retribution, and at the same time it is hard to blame the US for not simply wanting to walk away from Davis and let him be at the mercy of the PAK.

Tough situation all around.

You mean to ask why he wasn't stupid enough to shoot at the police? If he wasn't killed on the spot (or worse, beaten to death by the onlookers), surely he would've been in a situation much worse than he is today. Dr Aafia Siddiqui was sentences by an American court after she pointed a gun at an American soldier in Afghanistan. Davis probably thought the USA would be able to get him out the mess.

It's not totally at the mercy of "PAK." I don't think many people realize the complex working of the country especially since the proclamation of democracy and independence of the judiciary. In theory, the legal process will work the same way as it would in the USA. It's going to be a long legal process. The case is still in the Lahore High Court. It might take weeks or months before a final verdict. Whatever the judgement, there will be an appeal in the Supreme Court. From there, this might end up in an international court. I don't think the USA has any legal basis for their claims (unless they are able to bribe Zardari into changing Davis's records).

I agree it's a tough situation. I think situations like this create misunderstandings between populations as governments and medias try to impose their versions of the story on the people.

 

[The Green Bean]

I think it's funny that TGB still talks as if this is going to go to court, when his own article says the Pakistan government is just waiting for the heat to die down before they hand him over.

I don't agree with everything an article I posted says. The longer this drags on, the more unlikely it is for Davis to be released. The USA has been softening its position as it realizes that it has no power over this. They are conceding that they will not be cutting aid because of this.

I don't think Davis will be released without a trial until at least 2013 after the general elections.

 

[Nebor]

I don't agree with everything an article I posted says. The longer this drags on, the more unlikely it is for Davis to be released. The USA has been softening its position as it realizes that it has no power over this. They are conceding that they will not be cutting aid because of this.

I don't think Davis will be released without a trial until at least 2013 after the general elections.

I believe my original guess was that he would be released in less than 6 months. That $100 bet is still open. :biggrin:

 

[The Green Bean]

The UK's Guardian confirms Davis was a spy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/20/us-raymond-davis-lahore-cia

The USA is embarrassing itself. Your presidency has lost its credibility and the USA should not expect to win over the Pakistani people when they say one thing and do another. They're only making fools out of themselves in front of the entire world; nothing new. Bush did it. Obama is doing it...

 

[Nebor]

The UK's Guardian confirms Davis was a spy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/20/us-raymond-davis-lahore-cia

The USA is embarrassing itself. Your presidency has lost its credibility and the USA should not expect to win over the Pakistani people when they say one thing and do another. They're only making fools out of themselves in front of the entire world; nothing new. Bush did it. Obama is doing it...

Which is why I don't lose a wink of sleep about it. We'll continue to say and do as we please, and the rest of the world will continue to take it with a smile. 😀 Nothing about this situation is new or unique.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

The UK's Guardian confirms Davis was a spy:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/20/us-raymond-davis-lahore-cia

The USA is embarrassing itself. Your presidency has lost its credibility and the USA should not expect to win over the Pakistani people when they say one thing and do another. They're only making fools out of themselves in front of the entire world; nothing new. Bush did it. Obama is doing it...

Yes because Pakistan is emerging as the new world superpower.

Perhaps you should worry about keeping the power on in your third world shit hole rather than trying to tell us how to run arguably one of the most successful countries in the history of the world.

 

[iGas]

Which is why I don't lose a wink of sleep about it. We'll continue to say and do as we please, and the rest of the world will continue to take it with a smile. 😀 Nothing about this situation is new or unique.

And complaining daily how the Chinese are bitch slapping America.

 

[BudAshes]

This is a crazy story no matter who's at fault. There could be a movie in the works here...

 

[Nebor]

And complaining daily how the Chinese are bitch slapping America.

I'm not complaining. China is just higher in the hierarchy of nations than the United States, and they treat us appropriately. Pakistan is pretty low on the totem pole.