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Give this guy a medal

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For anyone interested, this has become quite an interesting situation.

1. The murdered were NOT thugs, the were members of the ISI.
2. Davis shot (multiple time) the victims in the back, not with pistols but with a sub-machine gun!
2b. He lied about acting in self-defense.
3. He holds a diplomatic passport but a civilian visa.
3a. He has traveled between Pakistan and Afghanistan 9 times.
3b. He worked for a security firm in Florida.
4. Under the Geneva convention, grave crimes are NOT covered for those not holding diplomatic visas.
5. The wife of one of the victims committed suicide saying that the murderer would be freed without trial and she will never get justice.
6. The Americans are piling up the pressure. They are threatening to cut off assistance.
7. The Pakistan government now says that it will abide by Pakistani law and wait for the court's decision.
8. The FO of Pakistan opposes the government's decision not to bow to the USA.
9. The government is in a catch 22 situation: they can either enrage the already enraged people and give other parties that are not in bed with America another reason to come to the street. As my personal opinion, I think Davis should be tried under the law. Pakistan should ask America to release prisoners from Guantanamo in exchange for Davis. America should stop acting like a bully and Pakistan should realize America is NOT a friend; just a selfish bastard that should NEVER be trusted. Why run to the USA when the world's next superpower is a neighbour and friend? Read about Aafia Siddiqui. She is a Pakistani doctor in American jails and the people in Pakistan are mad about it. The Pakistani government has taken this case to the USA a number of time but their response has always been that the judicial process is out of their hands. Why should it be any different here?
10. The army.
11. Handing over Davis will just prove how corrupt Pakistan actually is. The main basis on which the current government came into power was to "strengthen institutions."

Fuck America and American sympathizers.
 
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Right, because surely after some of the extremist groups started making threats the Pakistani government wouldn't fold like a napkin. Not saying that's the case, but it's awfully suspect that the story is the extreme opposite after those groups started making threats. I think no matter the outcome, and regardless of the first or second story about the American is true, the corruption of the Pakistani government is already pretty apparent one way or the other. The fact of the matter is nobody outside the US and Pakistani government knows what really happened.

So what's next for The Green Bean, entering the Pakistani lottery so you can be the lucky winner to decapitate this 'American pig'?
 
IcePickFreak said:
Right, because surely after some of the extremist groups started making threats the Pakistani government wouldn't fold like a napkin. Not saying that's the case, but it's awfully suspect that the story is the extreme opposite after those groups started making threats. I think no matter the outcome, and regardless of the first or second story about the American is true, the corruption of the Pakistani government is already pretty apparent one way or the other. The fact of the matter is nobody outside the US and Pakistani government knows what really happened.

So what's next for The Green Bean, entering the Pakistani lottery so you can be the lucky winner to decapitate this 'American pig'?
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I don't think you read what I wrote. The AMERICANS are making threats not anybody else. And handing him over without trial will upset the judicial system, the opposition and the general population. Handing him over without a proper trial will be a violation of Pakistan's sovereignty. What ever happened, under international law Davis must be tried.

America is the extremist here. Fuck them.
 
 
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I don't know what really happened, but I'm guessing it would be impossible for Davis to get an actual fair trial over there. The US should just say "hand him over or all $$$ stops flowing. Period."
 
Double Trouble said:
I don't know what really happened, but I'm guessing it would be impossible for Davis to get an actual fair trial over there. The US should just say "hand him over or all $$$ stops flowing. Period."
Click to expand...

The aid stops and we cut off your supply lines into Afghanistan. Period.

Most of our $$$ don't come from the USA anymore. They come from China. China is getting richer while the USA is virtually bankrupt. The USA does NOT have too much long term economic leverage anymore.

They USA has proved to be the worst excuse for an ally and I think we should stop depending on them. Pakistan needs to stand up for itself now. They've done nothing while the USA has been bombing their borders, but this bullying is beyond acceptable. If there is an extra-judicial release of Davis, the government will lose my vote.
 
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Green Bean, thanks for the links. There are a lot of questions, and I think we should push for the truth to come out.

Unfortunately, the US has an 'interest' in protecting its own operatives even if they are guilty of real crimes, that can cause injustice.

But we don't know a lot of the info yet - especially why the shooting happened.

A hit and run in the other incident IMO needs investigation as well.

It sounds like a real tragedy regarding the wife of one of the men killed. She does deserve this to be investigated IMO.

As for the escalating conflict in the thread about bad allies - it doesn't seem to help.

As we all know, it's a very complicated situation, with Pakistan seeming to have a real issue with having safe haven for extremists.

The debate about funding and cutting it off shows little more than the corrupting influence of aid, it it's what's deciding policy, not justice.
 
Craig234 said:
Green Bean, thanks for the links. There are a lot of questions, and I think we should push for the truth to come out.

Unfortunately, the US has an 'interest' in protecting its own operatives even if they are guilty of real crimes, that can cause injustice.

But we don't know a lot of the info yet - especially why the shooting happened.

A hit and run in the other incident IMO needs investigation as well.

It sounds like a real tragedy regarding the wife of one of the men killed. She does deserve this to be investigated IMO.

As for the escalating conflict in the thread about bad allies - it doesn't seem to help.

As we all know, it's a very complicated situation, with Pakistan seeming to have a real issue with having safe haven for extremists.

The debate about funding and cutting it off shows little more than the corrupting influence of aid, it it's what's deciding policy, not justice.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I agree with most of what you said. However, I do not agree with the suicide. It was a needless death and if anything plays against the investigation. The real issue here is whether politics or justice triumphs. If politics does indeed come out on top, it would be whether foreign policy or popular opinion wins. Then there is the military dynamic: what does the military have to say about this. Clearly America can not be trusted and it is a national security threat. They are threatening to cut off aid today, tomorrow they might threaten an invasion.

This is just what is happening on the surface. But they say that the matter is as it appears. I also think that this man is much more than an ordinary technician. No country would go to these lengths to protect an alleged murderer if it was not a matter of great concern. By threatening to cut off aid, your government is only increasing the possibility of American deaths in Afghanistan.
 
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The Green Bean said:
Thank you. I agree with most of what you said. However, I do not agree with the suicide. It was a needless death and if anything plays against the investigation. The real issue here is whether politics or justice triumphs. If politics does indeed come out on top, it would be whether foreign policy or popular opinion wins. Then there is the military dynamic: what does the military have to say about this. Clearly America can not be trusted and it is a national security threat. They are threatening to cut off aid today, tomorrow they might threaten an invasion.

This is just what is happening on the surface. But they say that the matter is as it appears. I also think that this man is much more than an ordinary technician. No country would go to these lengths to protect an alleged murderer if it was not a matter of great concern. By threatening to cut off aid, your government is only increasing the possibility of American deaths in Afghanistan.
Click to expand...

I think we agree on the wife, I called it a tragedy. The US has an interest in protecting people like this, insofar as assuring all other agents it will protect them.

Same for the military. Sometimes, they simply are not subject to host nation laws.

This is different for undercover agents, who are not so protected.

Unfortunately, we're still protecting a former terrorist who blew up a Cuban civilian airliner, someone who had long done terrorism at our direction.

He's not totally protected, but he's long received soft treatment, and we've refused the extradition demands of Cuba and Venezuela, where he was convicted.
 
The Green Bean said:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/08/us-postpones-bilateral-contacts-till-davis-freed.html

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...contact-with-Pakistan/articleshow/7450503.cms

http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com/2011/02/08/‘raymond-davis’-is-linked-to-terrorism-in-pakistan/

http://tribune.com.pk/story/115735/us-ratchets-up-pressure-for-davis-release/

I also suggest reading this article about the legality of Davis's arrest:

http://tribune.com.pk/story/115417/the-curious-case-of-raymond-davis/
Click to expand...

One of your own links (Tribune) disputes the claim that the two killed were ISI operatives.

You, yourself, declared wanted Davis punished before learning any of the additional "facts." If your attitude is common in Pakistan, is it any wonder that the U.S. would want to protect one of its own people from an unfair and politicized trial? The Times of India article even says some Indian politicians want Davis prosecuted for the death of the dead guy's wife. I'm no expert on Indian law, but that seems pretty screwed up right there. How the heck can Davis get a fair trial with stuff like that flying around?

Another of your links, pakistankakhudahafiz.com (Pakistan's leading alternative policy institute), clearly has a political agenda. I don't know how reputable it is as a news source, but it's the only one of your sources that is claiming Davis was involved in some kind of terrorist activity, that he had a submachine gun, and that the "victims" were shot in the back. Maybe it's the only one willing to posit the truth, or maybe it's the only one willing to make crap up in furtherance of its political agenda. How many reputable sources are making the same claims?

Now, I'm not saying he's not guilty of murder, but it sure doesn't sound like he's going to get a fair trial over there. And if Pakistan can't give him a fair trial, then they don't deserve to try him.
 
tk149 said:
One of your own links (Tribune) disputes the claim that the two killed were ISI operatives.

You, yourself, declared wanted Davis punished before learning any of the additional "facts." If your attitude is common in Pakistan, is it any wonder that the U.S. would want to protect one of its own people from an unfair and politicized trial? The Times of India article even says some Indian politicians want Davis prosecuted for the death of the dead guy's wife. I'm no expert on Indian law, but that seems pretty screwed up right there. How the heck can Davis get a fair trial with stuff like that flying around?

Another of your links, pakistankakhudahafiz.com (Pakistan's leading alternative policy institute), clearly has a political agenda. I don't know how reputable it is as a news source, but it's the only one of your sources that is claiming Davis was involved in some kind of terrorist activity, that he had a submachine gun, and that the "victims" were shot in the back. Maybe it's the only one willing to posit the truth, or maybe it's the only one willing to make crap up in furtherance of its political agenda. How many reputable sources are making the same claims?

Now, I'm not saying he's not guilty of murder, but it sure doesn't sound like he's going to get a fair trial over there. And if Pakistan can't give him a fair trial, then they don't deserve to try him.
Click to expand...

I never said I want him punished. I want him tried under Pakistani law. In every society you have extremist factions, but that does not mean that they are the law. The law is clearly written down and the courts should judge using that law.
 
The problem with the US letting other nations try operatives is that unlike the US/Western nations, these other nations are so corrupt it's already a given the operative will not a get a fair trial.

So in addition to writing off an operative that was out doing the US's bidding, that tells all other current and future operatives, Hey, your @ss will be left hanging in the wind should you get caught.

Not a great message to send to the very people need out there to do what you are wanting done.

I've got enough trust in our operatives that if they truly felt they needed to go into Pakistan and shoot two people in the back - and that's assuming that's the real true story, which just so happens to be much more sensationalistic to help inflame Muslim's, who in that region are super duper tolerant and not brainwashed not a bit - that whoever they took out, were some not nice dudes.

If it's true that the wife did indeed commit suicide, then I do feel for her. Perhaps the only innocent in this thing....

Chuck
 
Jaskalas said:
Have we?

They curse us, provide aid to our enemy, and we pay them for it.
Click to expand...

I LOL'd...especially when I read this from TGB: "Clearly America can not be trusted and it is a national security threat."

It that a riot or what? Someone from Pakistan saying that about the US.

For all those that curse Bush for going into Iraq (not the management of it, the going in), this is what is likely an - for the region - learned Muslim. Just think how F'd up and brainwashed the average Pakistani is if TGB is this bad....

Chuck
 
The Green Bean said:
The aid stops and we cut off your supply lines into Afghanistan. Period.

Most of our $$$ don't come from the USA anymore. They come from China. China is getting richer while the USA is virtually bankrupt. The USA does NOT have too much long term economic leverage anymore.

They USA has proved to be the worst excuse for an ally and I think we should stop depending on them. Pakistan needs to stand up for itself now. They've done nothing while the USA has been bombing their borders, but this bullying is beyond acceptable. If there is an extra-judicial release of Davis, the government will lose my vote.
Click to expand...

yeah cuz you guys are a real great ally 🙄

you want this lynched and its obvious man. you have stated again and again that you dont really care about the facts.

he definitely should be sat at the consulate and not allowed to leave the country while they decided the evidenciary facts about charges.

putting him a pakistani jail is just asking for trouble when you arent sure he did anything yet.

I would expect the US to let him sit at a consulate if he was pakistani and did the same thing here
 
The Green Bean said:
For anyone interested, this has become quite an interesting situation.

1. The murdered were NOT thugs, the were members of the ISI.
Click to expand...

Oh, so they were terrorists. Likely trying to kidnap him.

This isn't big news. It happens all the time around the world, but it normally doesn't get any attention. The second he's released on bail, or any sort of free time, he'll be hustled out of the country and reassigned to a new foreign mission.

And it sounds like he is State Department personal security agent. Explains his diplomat status and his armament and skill.

I guarantee this guy won't spend more than a month in captivity, because a majority of Americans would support any amount of force to free him. Of course, it won't come to that. Pakistan knows what side of the bread the butter's on.
 
Zargon said:
he definitely should be sat at the consulate and not allowed to leave the country while they decided the evidenciary facts about charges.
Click to expand...

The US doesn't do that. Standard policy when dealing with government employees is to remove them from the problematic country ASAP. Once that person is safely back in the United States, the country in question can make it's decisions and the United States can decide what is best in regards to it's employee.
 
The Green Bean said:
Diplomats are NOT allowed to carry weapons. To the very least he should be charged with illegal carrying of firearms. Too bad the Pakistan leadership is nothing more than American slaves and one phone call from some unknown senator will be enough for the diplomat to be pardoned.

What would happen if a Pakistan diplomat killed two American thugs in LA?
Click to expand...

i thought your dumb ass got banned.
 
The Green Bean said:
For anyone interested, this has become quite an interesting situation.

1. The murdered were NOT thugs, the were members of the ISI.
2. Davis shot (multiple time) the victims in the back, not with pistols but with a sub-machine gun!
2b. He lied about acting in self-defense.
3. He holds a diplomatic passport but a civilian visa.
3a. He has traveled between Pakistan and Afghanistan 9 times.
3b. He worked for a security firm in Florida.
4. Under the Geneva convention, grave crimes are NOT covered for those not holding diplomatic visas.
5. The wife of one of the victims committed suicide saying that the murderer would be freed without trial and she will never get justice.
6. The Americans are piling up the pressure. They are threatening to cut off assistance.
7. The Pakistan government now says that it will abide by Pakistani law and wait for the court's decision.
8. The FO of Pakistan opposes the government's decision not to bow to the USA.
9. The government is in a catch 22 situation: they can either enrage the already enraged people and give other parties that are not in bed with America another reason to come to the street. As my personal opinion, I think Davis should be tried under the law. Pakistan should ask America to release prisoners from Guantanamo in exchange for Davis. America should stop acting like a bully and Pakistan should realize America is NOT a friend; just a selfish bastard that should NEVER be trusted. Why run to the USA when the world's next superpower is a neighbour and friend? Read about Aafia Siddiqui. She is a Pakistani doctor in American jails and the people in Pakistan are mad about it. The Pakistani government has taken this case to the USA a number of time but their response has always been that the judicial process is out of their hands. Why should it be any different here?
10. The army.
11. Handing over Davis will just prove how corrupt Pakistan actually is. The main basis on which the current government came into power was to "strengthen institutions."

Fuck America and American sympathizers.
Click to expand...

yappity yap yap. you really love the anti-american propaganda dont you. you drink it like its fresh squeezed poppy juice. more shit comes out of your mouth than the ass of a horse.
 
The Green Bean said:
I never said I want him punished. I want him tried under Pakistani law. In every society you have extremist factions, but that does not mean that they are the law. The law is clearly written down and the courts should judge using that law.
Click to expand...

Bwhahahahah yea right. beloved patriot law is a fucking joke.
 
Bateluer said:
So much fail in this thread. Person was under attack, person defended themselves, person was released. As they should have been. If this had occurred entirely between Americans in a state, the victim wouldn't have spent more than a night in jail. And they'd be lauded as the hero they are for taking out two worthless skin bags.
Click to expand...

Depends on what state you're in (car carry laws), but for the most part yeah.
 
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