Give this guy a medal

[The Green Bean]

Do I deny America tortures? Nope. But you didn't say, "America tortures.", you said, "If this was a Pakistani in the USA I have no doubts that your torture squads would have waterboarded him and made him insane." That's an absurd comment if a Pakistani was to have found having done what this American is accused of doing. The Pakistani would be held, absolutely, and he'd have his Pakistani representation right along with him. No torture, no waterboarding, etc. And that's my point: You're so brainwashed you actually believe he'd be tortured and waterboarded. It's an insane comment by you, a brainwashed individual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aafia_Siddiqui

The circumstances were similar to that of Raymond Davis with the exception that she was found in Afghanistan. The Wikipedia article quotes Anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan

criticised the conviction and the judicial process calliing saying it was carried out by a kangaroo court, with the judge displaying an "open bias" and the trial was unjust

Discussing Dr. Afia will derail this thread but many Pakistanis believe she was unjustly treated. I'm not aware of any international law that allows states to arrest foreign national from another country and try them somewhere else. I see a banner about Dr. Afia on my commute to work every day.

As far as torturing in Pakistan and not condoned by the gov itself, you're F'ing delusional. You don't think the ISI tortures? You don't think your government knows about those it orders tortured? Unreal.

Bush said water boarding was acceptable. Knowing and accepting it as an acceptable form of punishment are different. You must also realize that Pakistan is fighting an insurgency in its own country. America is fighting an illegal undeclared war. The circumstances are different.

America likely will die out sooner than 200 years, I agree...at least as she exists In Totality now. The government torturing enemy combatants (or those turned into us by their countrymen as enemy combatants) really has no bearing on whether America will last the next 200 or not. America won't last because we're letting millions of illegals into our country to do jobs our blue collar workers used to do, but can't afford to do at 3rd world rates...and we pay these blue collar workers something called Unemployment for the privalege of being invaded by these illegals. We also have this entity called Wall Street that steals Trillions, and essentially creates nothing in return for hundreds of billions in siphoned profits. The 3rd strike if you will is our Politicians, who while not nearly as corrupt and dishonest as your own (I cannot believe I just said that btw), are approaching just as bad...if not in corruption, in total ineffectiveness as a political body that exists to handle the issues they're caring not to handle (the illegal immigration issue, rediculous control of US by Wall Street, Health Care, etc).

So, while you do touch on some things that America does wrong, they're not really what will bring us down. Still, America in 200 years will be about 800 years ahead of Pakistan. Ask any person on Earth, who isn't a total fundi, which country they'd rather be stuck in for the rest of their life, Pakistan or US...heck, lets go with any ME/East Asia country or US, and who will they pick? US. That's how "bad" we are...

American claims to stand for "freedom," "liberty" and "justice" none of which exist for most, or as Orwell put it "some are more equal than others" . Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. The measure of success in both countries is different. While I would not say Pakistan has been successful in this endevour, it is closer than what many think. Please don't start with "Islam is evil" because Islam is not what your media shows you. I'm seriously disappointed by your medias portrayal of Islam. On the other hand, the academic work done by your country is refreshing to read. But as I said, if the media stopped fueling anti-Muslim sentiments, it would simply not sell.

Outstanding! No one from the US, no one, is saying They must follow our model or we'll dr0p th3 b0mbz!!!....we're just wanting you all over there to progress forward about 600 years in thought, so hopefully, you'll get past your fundi problem.

So what about this whole scenario about Davis? Ignore the justice system or we will cut of aid, cut of all ties and possibly "dr0p th3 b0mbz." I don't trust America. They will twist the facts and do as they please just like they did in Iraq.

It's not that I hate any of you Pakistani's, it's that your region breeds fundi's who take their violence, happily I might add, to others. 9/11 was a wakeup call that letting you all progress for your average countryperson as you have been (that's: not really much), is not going to work in this era of easy global transportation. We know our media is biased (to the left or right, pick a source) and reports only what will get them ratings, not the complete and unbiased picture, we already know that.

Davis is a spy who may have contacts with the Taliban. There may be many others like him who are the actual culprits behind the many bombings here recently. Who knows? Do you believe everything your media tells you? This is no longer a conspiracy theory, it is the subject of a real investigation.

 

[Nebor]

We can only hope to one day be as peaceful as Pakistan. Pray for us.

I think we can all agree that one day we'd like America to be like Pakistan, a superior country in every way. 🙄

 

[IcePickFreak]

Honestly Green Bean, your last post is thought out much better and I don't think you would have caught a lot of the flak you did in this thread if you presented yourself that way from the beginning. At any rate, it is a politically charged discussion and we know how those go. Heck, most politicians can't even "civilly" discuss politics.

I can't really agree though that knowing and accepting torture is different. In both cases people are being tortured, in one case someone is lying about it. I'd say it's more likely that the one lying about it is doing far worse than water boarding.

Also, I don't think any free-thinking American would deny there is corruption in the US government. The difference though is here it's about money. In Pakistan, as you said there is an insurgency factor, and they aren't trying to blackmail politicians with money - they just throw out straight out threats with a track-record to back it up. People who are threatened like that are quite a bit more likely to throw morals to the way-side so them and their family are safe. Not saying they don't throw morals to the wayside for money here, but the line is drawn quite a bit further when it's you and your families life versus their financial status.

Bottom line is we're the pawns, and likely have more in common despite being on different "sides" than each of us have with our respective "king and queen."

 

[The Green Bean]

This whole incident has the potential to overthrow the government. The Government fired the foreign minister because of his stance on this issue and the government's popularity is at an all time low. Here is an article that was published on the front page of one of Pakistan's leading newspapers: The News

Diplomats do not support US stand on Davis

ISLAMABAD: The imperial arrogance of a superpower is increasing day by day for a weak democracy in Pakistan but still remains counterproductive. Pakistan is challenging the US the second time in less than six months after the Nato supply line was cut in October last year, which was resumed only after profound official apologies by Washington. This time, the US is not ready to apologise or show respect to Pakistani law but is trying to prove that Pakistan is not its most trusted but its most bullied ally.

A scheduled high-level trilateral meeting with Pakistan, which was aimed at discussing the situation in Afghanistan, has been put off. It wrongly assumed that postponing a diplomatic meeting would be enough for putting more pressure on Islamabad to release its shady secret agent Raymond Davis being tried for murder in Lahore.

This imperial arrogance never worked and Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir responded on Saturday that, “If I commit an immoral act, I won’t seek immunity.” As another pressure move, now the US officials have conveyed to Pakistan that if Raymond Davis will not be released in the coming days, then the visit of President Asif Ali Zardari to the US next month could also be postponed.

Highly reliable sources in the Foreign Office claimed that the US State Department is not calling the shots at least for the last 10 days, the White House is directly dealing with the Raymond Davis case under the pressure of CIA. It is now clear that Raymond Davis was working for CIA because CIA has stopped drone attacks in Pakistani tribal areas after his arrest.

It was also learnt that Pakistani officials in Washington are getting threatening messages directly from the White House. Pakistan Embassy in Washington has conveyed to the president and the prime minister in Islamabad last week that the US could postpone the visit of Zardari to Washington and some US congressmen are also planning to start a move for disrupting the US aid to Pakistan. Despite all these “threatening messages”, top government officials in Islamabad once again made it clear on Sunday that only the Pakistani courts will decide the fate of Raymond Davis.

A powerful federal minister very close to President Asif Ali Zardari told this scribe “We are not in a position to oblige the US because this matter is now sub judice and the Lahore High Court has included the name of Raymond Davis in the Exit Control List. If we will do anything in violation of the court orders, then the court will summon us for contempt and we are sure that the people of Pakistan will come out on the roads against us and our fate will be worse than Hosni Mubarak.”

When asked if there is unanimity in all the government institutions on the Raymond Davis case, then why Shah Mehmood Qureshi was not given the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the new cabinet, the minister had no satisfactory answer and accepted that the Qureshi affair had created many questions and only Prime Minister Gilani can answer these questions but he also said: “Let me tell you clearly that president, PM, Army chief and Punjab government are now on one wavelength on the Raymond Davis issue. Only the courts will decide his fate, we will not accept any US pressure, we are ready to face US sanctions because we know that new elections are very close and a small mistake on this issue will destroy the political future of Pakistan People’s Party.”

Despite all these off-the-record claims, no “powerful minister” is ready to say anything about the US on the record. Even Shah Mehmood Qureshi is making big claims only after he was not given Foreign Ministry. It is learnt that majority of the new cabinet members have advised the PM not to accept the US pressure. Initially, President Zardari asked the PM to find out some way to come out of the mounting US pressure but it was Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir who clearly wrote in one of his notes to the PM that “Raymond Davis is not a diplomat and we cannot compromise our national security by accepting US pressure on this issue. Let the courts decide the case, we should not provide immunity to a killer.”

Foreign Office sources said the arrogant attitude of the US on Raymond Davis case also exposed the seriousness of US for its war against terror and strategic dialogue with Pakistan. The US is ready to forget everything Pakistan did in the past just for a person who killed two Pakistanis in the name of so-called self-defence. The family of a third person is also planning to take some legal action against top police officials who have still not arrested the associates of Raymond Davis who killed motorcyclist Ibadur Rehman in their attempt to rescue the killer.

The Punjab Police officials claimed that they were in contact with US Consulate in Lahore for the arrest of the driver who killed a motorcyclist.
It is also important that diplomatic community in Islamabad is not supporting the US position on the Raymond Davis case. Many European diplomats exchanged views on this issue with this scribe and said that diplomats do not move and act like Raymond Davis moved and acted in Lahore. Diplomats are not entitled to carry illegal weapons with them.

One diplomat reminded me of my questions to US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton in a TV interview in 2009 in which I asked her that why US officials were moving in Pakistan with illegal weapons in their hands and when Pakistani police arrest them, why you put pressure on our government to release them. Hilary never had a satisfactory answer and promised in that television interview that she will get the details and will make sure that it does not happen again. But this promise was not fulfilled. US secret agents expanded their activities from Islamabad to Peshawar and from Lahore to Karachi under the nose of the PPP government.

One European diplomat said the US has forgotten all its responsibilities as a major international player just for Raymond Davis. Another diplomat said that tomorrow Raymond Davis type secret agents may kill more people in other capitals of the world and then the US will claim diplomatic immunity. He said Pakistan should not accept the US pressure because it will create more problems for diplomats all over the world.

An Arab diplomat said: “We condemn Taliban and al-Qaeda because they break the law of the land, we hunt them, we punish them but why can’t we arrest and punish a US citizen if he kills someone? What is the difference between Taliban and US secret agents. Both violate laws, both kill innocents.”

http://e.thenews.com.pk/2-14-2011/

 

[DesiPower]

This whole incident has the potential to overthrow the government. The Government fired the foreign minister because of his stance on this issue and the government's popularity is at an all time low. Here is an article that was published on the front page of one of Pakistan's leading newspapers: The News

ISLAMABAD: The imperial arrogance of a superpower is increasing day by day for a weak democracy in Pakistan but still remains... *Snip*

The smiley in your post pretty much tells the whole story.... :biggrin:

 

[dabuddha]

I always love reading "newspaper articles" from the nutjobs within these countries. It really explains why the local folks tend to be delusional about reality and the facts.

 

[OutHouse]

the White House is directly dealing with the Raymond Davis case under the pressure of CIA It is now clear that Raymond Davis was working for CIA because CIA has stopped drone attacks in Pakistani tribal areas after his arrest.

wow you got some super duper investigative actually the most ignorant reporters over there don't you. First off the CIA does not pressure the white house on what to do, ever.

you fuckers think the milkmen and pie baker work for the CIA. hell i bet a few goats have been killed because some whack job thought it was a CIA goat.

CIA CIA CIA run for it dude the boogy man CIA is every where!!!

your country is such a joke, it makes Bangladesh look good.

 

[chucky2]

Odd...when I read that article The Green Bean, I don't detect even a hint of bias...gee, not a bit (and that's from a news source no less, something that should be unbiased)! I just can't imagine why we'd not want one of ours tried there, at the mercy of your "unbiased" judicial system. I mean, just look how unbiased your news sources are! I can only imagine your judicial system and your government are even more so (not even getting into the corruption and collusion, such as ISI).

It is actually admirable you want the rule of law to be followed (at least in this case), the real question is, exactly what facts and "facts" would be presented, which of your biased and corrupt officials and jury would be hearing and deciding the case, and where would our person be held during and after (presuming the inevitable sentence)? Even at Guantanamo, they've got their own cells, are in their own population, given good food and water (many are surely physically living better than they ever did before)...ournguy is going to get what?

Nope...just can't imagine why any country would want their person back and not to be held in Pakistan...haha, oh lordy...the lulz....

 

[davmat787]

This whole incident has the potential to overthrow the government. The Government fired the foreign minister because of his stance on this issue and the government's popularity is at an all time low. Here is an article that was published on the front page of one of Pakistan's leading newspapers: The News

Sounds like he has already been convicted in Pakistan. This is such a tough and complicated situation, but I am guessing nothing short of a guilty verdict will suffice.

Green Bean, what do you think he should have done instead of defending himself? What would have been acceptable to the typical Pakistani in regards to him defending himself?

PS: I am not trying to be snarky, I am really interested in what he could have done, from a pakistani perspective, to defend himself that would also have been acceptable to Pakistan.

 

[chucky2]

Well, amazingly, the original story changed from defending himself to slaughtering two innocent Pakistani versions of nuns just minding their own business on the street (properly escorted of course, because if they weren't, the humane and law abiding Pakistani's would have to bury them up to their necks and throw hand sized rocks into their face for disgracing someone/something, the Sky God commands it!). Of course, I'm sure others are going to be found to have been killed, as this guy was spraying bullets left and right, demon American swine that he is!

Probably its best to handle this in a public sham trial that's more about the brainwashed Pakistani public mad that The Evil West has to kill Muslim brothers being sheltered in Pakistan who like to rape 9 year old girls and kill them where the Pakistani's originally thought it'd be a good idea to not do anything about them (the Taliban that The Green Bean would rather be allied with instead of The Evil West), and hence come kill highly likely another two totally innocent, honest, (and nice guys to boot!) brothers - or was it nuns?, well, who knows, facts aren't really important - "in cold blood" on the street.

I mean, why handle what is obviously a complex situation behind closed doors so the requisite cards can be laid on the table and an understanding reached? Nah...much better to have The Green Been public types already have convicted this guy of cold blooded nun murder (the b@stard!) in a sham trial for the public's benefit so they can feel like they've got one over finally on The Evil West.

Amirite TGB?

Chuck

 

[The Green Bean]

Odd...when I read that article The Green Bean, I don't detect even a hint of bias...gee, not a bit (and that's from a news source no less, something that should be unbiased)!

ROFL! America and its media brainwashed its public to believe that Saddam had WMDs which could be launched against London within minutes. Only America has unbiased media! 😀 It hasn't even been a decade since your government lied to you and you ended up killing thousands of innocents and cause anarchy that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Now you believe your liars again. Fuck your diplomats. They are the real corrupt liars not us.

I just can't imagine why we'd not want one of ours tried there, at the mercy of your "unbiased" judicial system. I mean, just look how unbiased your news sources are! I can only imagine your judicial system and your government are even more so (not even getting into the corruption and collusion, such as ISI).

Our judicial system is less biased than yours. Read the case of Afia Siddiqui that I have posted. Human rights groups agree that the trial was in a kangaroo court.

Even at Guantanamo, they've got their own cells, are in their own population, given good food and water (many are surely physically living better than they ever did before)...ournguy is going to get what?

Saying Guantanamo is humane is laughable. Sleep deprivation, torture, stripping, humiliation, water boarding, isolation.... surely it can't be worse than that! To say they are living better than they ever lived is naive at best.

Nope...just can't imagine why any country would want their person back and not to be held in Pakistan...haha, oh lordy...the lulz....

It's probably because that person is directly involved in terrorist activity directly backed by the CIA and the White House. Your government is full of liars. They lied about Iraq's WMDS, there is no reason or basis to believe them over what the Pakistani courts decide.

 

[The Green Bean]

Well, amazingly, the original story changed from defending himself to slaughtering two innocent Pakistani versions of nuns just minding their own business on the street (properly escorted of course, because if they weren't, the humane and law abiding Pakistani's would have to bury them up to their necks and throw hand sized rocks into their face for disgracing someone/something, the Sky God commands it!). Of course, I'm sure others are going to be found to have been killed, as this guy was spraying bullets left and right, demon American swine that he is!

All talk, no facts. Typical.

Probably its best to handle this in a public sham trial that's more about the brainwashed Pakistani public mad that The Evil West has to kill Muslim brothers being sheltered in Pakistan who like to rape 9 year old girls and kill them where the Pakistani's originally thought it'd be a good idea to not do anything about them (the Taliban that The Green Bean would rather be allied with instead of The Evil West), and hence come kill highly likely another two totally innocent, honest, (and nice guys to boot!) brothers - or was it nuns?, well, who knows, facts aren't really important - "in cold blood" on the street.

I can't believe how stupid Americans are that after being lied to they still believe their media and government. Whatever you have said shows you have been poisoned by propaganda. There maybe incidents of rape, but there are probably more rapes in the USA than Pakistan.

The law applies equally. The killer of the Punjabi governor was formally presented in court yesterday even though some idiots are hailing him as a hero. I don't think you are any better than Qadri's supporters because just like him you are supporting a murderer.

I mean, why handle what is obviously a complex situation behind closed doors so the requisite cards can be laid on the table and an understanding reached? Nah...much better to have The Green Been public types already have convicted this guy of cold blooded nun murder (the b@stard!) in a sham trial for the public's benefit so they can feel like they've got one over finally on The Evil West.

Amirite TGB?

Chuck

Why has the American public convicted Osama Bin Laden without a trial? I'm not comparing the two, I'm just asking a legal and moral question. If it's right for one public to convict a terrorist plot mastermind without a trial, why is it wrong for them to convict someone who has killed in broad day-light? But I guess that what they brainwash you to believe in schools: Americans are always right.

 

[The Green Bean]

Sounds like he has already been convicted in Pakistan. This is such a tough and complicated situation, but I am guessing nothing short of a guilty verdict will suffice.

Green Bean, what do you think he should have done instead of defending himself? What would have been acceptable to the typical Pakistani in regards to him defending himself?

PS: I am not trying to be snarky, I am really interested in what he could have done, from a pakistani perspective, to defend himself that would also have been acceptable to Pakistan.

Diplomats are not allowed to carry submachine-guns while travelling through urban areas. He was not a diplomat which makes it worse. The courts will decide if he was defending himself or not. I don't understand why you believe your liar government's claims that:

1) He was a diplomat. The government of Pakistan has made it clear that he was not on the diplomats list provided before the murder. The Americans are only embarrassing themselves. Items found in his possession prove that was was a spy. If he was an official at the Lahore consulate:

-= Vienna Convention 1961 =-
[UN Website: http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/911961.pdf ]
- Article 37 (2) states (pg 11):
Members of the administrative and technical staff of the mission, together with members of their families forming part of their respective households, shall, if they are not nationals of or permanently resident in the receiving State, enjoy the privileges and immunities specified in articles 29 to 35, EXCEPT that the immunity from civil and administrative jurisdiction of the receiving State specified in paragraph 1 of article 31 shall NOT EXTENDS to acts performed outside the course of their duties.
- Article 31 (1) (pg 9):
1.A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State. He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, EXCEPT in the case of:
(c) An action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in the receiving State OUTSIDE HIS OFFICIAL FUNCTIONS.
-= Vienna Convention On Counselor Relations 1963 =-
[ http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/921963.pdf ]
Article 41 (1) pg 17:
1.Consular officers shall not be liable to arrest or detention pending trial, “EXCEPT” in the case of a grave crime and pursuant to a decision by the competent judicial authority.
—= Role of Courts =—
‘Diplomatic Immunity: Principles, Practices, and Problems‘ By Grant V. McLanahon [Published for the Institute for the study of Diplomacy, Georgetown University, Washington DC, 1976 pg.125]
The Courts:
The court’s role in relation to question about Diplomatic immunity has been clarified and simplified by the guidance on the law provided by Vienna Conventions.It is still the courts of a country that have final word in many cases on who and what are entitled to diplomatic immunity.
For many years, after Act of 1970 in the United States, An ambessdor or Servant can not be sued by a citizen EXCEPT before the supreme court. The foreign missions were notified of this change by the State department circular note of 31st October, 1978.
P.S: Raymond Davis detention is lawful, and fully accordance with Vienna Conventions (UN Treaties). Pakistan is rightfully entitled to pursue the case against Raymond Davis.

2) That he acted in self-defense.

I wouldn't believe anything that comes out of the White House after they lied about Iraq's WMD's that directly and indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

 

[nobodyknows]

I guess we can believe our "liar" government claims or your "liar" goverment claims. It's up to us.

And it case you never noticed we have a different person in the White House. Try to keep up.

 

[chucky2]

All talk, no facts. Typical.

Who needs facts? Facts change day by day in Pakistan, whichever spin needs to happen for the desired outcome will happen, what "facts"/facts are needed?

I can't believe how stupid Americans are that after being lied to they still believe their media and government. Whatever you have said shows you have been poisoned by propaganda. There maybe incidents of rape, but there are probably more rapes in the USA than Pakistan.

Oh the ironing....your own news article link has bias in it left and right! Seriously now: You don't read the multiple examples of bias in your own link? Not a one?

The law applies equally. The killer of the Punjabi governor was formally presented in court yesterday even though some idiots are hailing him as a hero. I don't think you are any better than Qadri's supporters because just like him you are supporting a murderer.

Well, I can't say if he's a hero or not. If the Punjabi gov. was as big a POS as our bodies of government over here, it's entirely possible he is a hero. No, I'm supporting a killer, there's a difference. And if he's found to be a murderer, then I may still support him, depending on why he murdered the men, er, nuns...

Why has the American public convicted Osama Bin Laden without a trial? I'm not comparing the two, I'm just asking a legal and moral question. If it's right for one public to convict a terrorist plot mastermind without a trial, why is it wrong for them to convict someone who has killed in broad day-light? But I guess that what they brainwash you to believe in schools: Americans are always right.

I've seen you ask this a few times when you get cornered. My advice to you is get on YouTube, and find the videos/audio tapes of OBL talking about how he hadn't expected the Twin Towers to fall/fall as quickly as they did. He himself implicates himself, no trial is needed. That you actually even chose to go here, to actually even suggest why OBL would not need a public trial.....is amazing. I'd say stunning. It's like us having a debate on some aspect of the North or South pole, and you throw out: Well, have you really proven that water freezes as 32F?

Are you serious? Really? Okey dokey.....

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

snip

I wouldn't believe anything that comes out of the White House after they lied about Iraq's WMD's that directly and indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

Come now...had they found a 343454456567 kiloton nuke sitting in Saddam's main sh1tter, you'd still not believe the White House.

Besides, everyone knows that WMD was the 'simple reason' for going into Iraq...there were multiple reasons for doing so (actual reasons, not the BDS'r "reasons")...

P.S. You might have noticed that the Iraqi's aren't living under a brutal dictator that the entire rest of the world doesn't need to worry about any longer (or his two wacko sons), and are governing themselves....weird huh?

Chuck

 

[nobodyknows]

And the you have the BSD'rs. (Bush's Suck-up Defenders)

 

[chucky2]

Not really. I still hold Bush accountable for abandoning Afghanistan (even though our allies should have been able to handle that on their own, sort of amazing for all their bluster they couldn't), not doing Iraq properly in respect to Iraq, and not funding the WoT through a line item tax such as SS has.

But I still view going into Iraq as a good long term move...just could have been done a whole lot better...

Chuck

 

[Nebor]

Today's news

Good thing for you you didn't take me up on that $100 bet, eh Green Bean? :biggrin:

 

[Nebor]

Not really. I still hold Bush accountable for abandoning Afghanistan (even though our allies should have been able to handle that on their own, sort of amazing for all their bluster they couldn't), not doing Iraq properly in respect to Iraq, and not funding the WoT through a line item tax such as SS has.

But I still view going into Iraq as a good long term move...just could have been done a whole lot better...

Chuck

If Egypt ends up as a functioning democracy, Bush will be well on his way to "Reaganization." His work turning Iraq into a democracy will be seen as the turning point for the middle east.

 

[The Green Bean]

Today's news

Good thing for you you didn't take me up on that $100 bet, eh Green Bean? :biggrin:

I still don't think he will be released without trial. Legally, Davis is not immune. If the government intervenes sub-judicially, not only will their government be overthrown in a matter of hours but it will destroy the political future of the PPPP. They are probably going to minor party in the next elections anyways but this would ensure they will never lead the government.

Davis might be freed before April, but not before trial 😉 ... not up for a bet though 😛

 

[chucky2]

"The West" haters and the liberals and the BDS'rs will just find some other excuse on why Tunisia and Egypt just happened to revolt the same time Iraq has successful elections (again) and is getting on its way towards becoming a viable self governing state, so as to marginalize Bush. If they don't, going on hyped up rampages for 8 of the past 10 years would just make them look rediculously stupid...and they can't have that.

EDIT: That's not to say Bush shouldn't be shot in both knee's for his other F ups: He should.

Chuck

 

[The Green Bean]

Come now...had they found a 343454456567 kiloton nuke sitting in Saddam's main sh1tter, you'd still not believe the White House.

Besides, everyone knows that WMD was the 'simple reason' for going into Iraq...there were multiple reasons for doing so (actual reasons, not the BDS'r "reasons")...

P.S. You might have noticed that the Iraqi's aren't living under a brutal dictator that the entire rest of the world doesn't need to worry about any longer (or his two wacko sons), and are governing themselves....weird huh?

Chuck

It's not about why they went or if what they did was good or not. I didn't like Saddam. It's that your government lied to you and got away with it.

 

[chucky2]

From Nebor's link:

"The U.S. Embassy confirmed Tuesday that Sen. John Kerry, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was on his way to Pakistan to discuss the two countries' ties."

WTF? Is that normal, especially at a time like this?

 

[The Green Bean]

I've seen you ask this a few times when you get cornered. My advice to you is get on YouTube, and find the videos/audio tapes of OBL talking about how he hadn't expected the Twin Towers to fall/fall as quickly as they did. He himself implicates himself, no trial is needed. That you actually even chose to go here, to actually even suggest why OBL would not need a public trial.....is amazing. I'd say stunning. It's like us having a debate on some aspect of the North or South pole, and you throw out: Well, have you really proven that water freezes as 32F?

Are you serious? Really? Okey dokey.....

Chuck

Legally, it's still unacceptable. If I said I murdered x, proved it, then an armed militia killed me without taking me to a court, would it be acceptable? I'm not sure of your laws, but I firmly believe that only a judge has the authority to officially convict. The American army is just like a militia. They have not declared war against anyone, and what they are doing is vigilante "justice." The Pakistani public is proposing to do the same to Davis.

In case you don't understand: both are wrong.