Girl suspended at school for saying Bless You after someone sneezed

[xBiffx]

Okay, so what exactly do you think is the motivation behind the list of words that the students aren't allowed to say?

Do you really think this is about religion? Do you think it's about suppressing ideas and opinions? Because it seems to me to have little to do with what students can express and more to do with how they're expected to express it.

I can't even speculate on the motivations of the teacher and asking me to is ridiculous. Nor should the motivation matter. The First Amendment doesn't say anything about motivations being the reason to not limit speech.

I don't really think its about religion specifically.

 

[Exophase]

He's role playing the part of a zealot. He is insulting Christianity more than anything else.

Okay, it's a little clearer now. I guess he wants to give me a fake taste of what finding religion would really mean.

If I have a hard time knowing when he's being sarcastic it's because of what he's said in a lot of other posts...

 

[Exophase]

I can't even speculate on the motivations of the teacher and asking me to is ridiculous. Nor should the motivation matter. The First Amendment doesn't say anything about motivations being the reason to not limit speech.

I don't really think its about religion specifically.

So if the motivation and context doesn't matter, why exactly is profanity or obscenity okay to disallow?

 

[piasabird]

I think this is more of a custom than a religious thing. I see this at work sometimes.

I sneeze a lot sometimes because I get seasonal allergies to grass and mold and whatever else. So A person could go crazy if they keeping saying that to me.

 

[xBiffx]

So if the motivation and context doesn't matter, why exactly is profanity or obscenity okay to disallow?

I don't have to answer that. The Supreme Court already did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California

 

[TerryMathews]

There's a difference between school-wide policies in what you can wear and restricting what's said in a specific classroom with some kind of linguistic motivation.

I'm still waiting for the explanation of how it's okay for an advanced Spanish class teacher to tell the students not to speak in anything but Spanish, or to hear that this is in fact also a freedom of speech violation.

" The Court held that in order for school officials to justify censoring speech, they "must be able to show that [their] action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint,""

Basically, any non-BS reasoning is OK. For example, encouraging Spanish language comprehension.

There's no legitimate reason I can imagine for banning bless you.

 

[Exophase]

There's no legitimate reason I can imagine for banning bless you.

Because it's a pointless superstition that people are taught should be said out of politeness and genuinely can and does interrupt things. If the class is constantly sneezing and the teacher is trying to lecture do you not think the constant "bless you" after every one can get a little disruptive? How about during a test when people are trying to concentrate? Disallowing it entirely will help break people of the compulsion to say it.

I said earlier my girlfriend's band director didn't let people give in their "bless you" after their first day, I hardly think he was being arbitrary just like I hardly think this teacher is.

 

[OutHouse]

Because it's a pointless superstition that people are taught should be said out of politeness and genuinely can and does interrupt things. If the class is constantly sneezing and the teacher is trying to lecture do you not think the constant "bless you" after every one can get a little disruptive? How about during a test when people are trying to concentrate? Disallowing it entirely will help break people of the compulsion to say it.

I said earlier my girlfriend's band director didn't let people give in their "bless you" after their first day, I hardly think he was being arbitrary just like I hardly think this teacher is.

im pretty sure that the constant sneezing would be the main distraction, not saying bless you.

 

[Exophase]

im pretty sure that the constant sneezing would be the main distraction, not saying bless you.

Why can't they both be a distraction? The words are about as lengthy as your typical sneeze, can be as loud, and it draws more attention to the sneezing making it more distracting too.

I mean, it'd be great if you could get people to stop sneezing too, but you can't very well try to control an involuntary behavior.

 

[OutHouse]

Because it's a pointless superstition that people are taught should be said out of politeness and genuinely can and does interrupt things.

mabye for you it does, the rest of the country could not give a shit.

 

[dmcowen674]

so next time someone sneezes just say fuck you. bound to have less effect.

Well that's not on the Teachers list

 

[Exophase]

mabye for you it does, the rest of the country could not give a shit.

Apparently there are teachers who also give a shit. Disallowing it isn't based on BS reasoning just because people are so accustomed to it. I don't have anything against people who say it but it's not hard to see why a teacher could find it disruptive.

 

[TerryMathews]

Because it's a pointless superstition that people are taught should be said out of politeness and genuinely can and does interrupt things. If the class is constantly sneezing and the teacher is trying to lecture do you not think the constant "bless you" after every one can get a little disruptive? How about during a test when people are trying to concentrate? Disallowing it entirely will help break people of the compulsion to say it.

I said earlier my girlfriend's band director didn't let people give in their "bless you" after their first day, I hardly think he was being arbitrary just like I hardly think this teacher is.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I assure you if someone wanted to make a case out of it that list is not compliant with Tinker. End of story.

The situations you describe can be handled as situations.

You seem to be arguing from a position that you don't believe people should say it. Unfortunately for you that's not your call to make.

 

[Exophase]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I assure you if someone wanted to make a case out of it that list is not compliant with Tinker. End of story.

The situations you describe can be handled as situations.

You seem to be arguing from a position that you don't believe people should say it. Unfortunately for you that's not your call to make.

I'm not arguing from a position that people shouldn't say it, I'm arguing for how the teacher can forbid it without it being a BS reason.

A teacher is going to have to maintain some level of control over the classroom in order to teach even remotely effectively. That includes limiting when the students can talk and what they're allowed to say. The Tinker standard is really something that extends beyond the control a teacher has in the classroom. We're not talking about the principal enacting a school-wide ban. We're also not talking about a real suspension - more like the student left the classroom (either voluntarily or because she was asked to leave) and the school put her in ISS for the period because that's what they do with students who aren't in class.

The banned list can be argued as a combination of avoiding disruption and being relevant to the educational interests of the students, in the exact same way restricting language in a Spanish class could. Consider if this is a creative writing class, and the teacher is trying to get the students to avoid dull/vague/generic terms to improve their skills of English expression. She's telling the students not to say these words, but do we know exactly what the reprimand is if they do, other than reminding them not to? How far does enforcing the first amendment go - teachers not allowed to correct bad grammar or mark points off of papers for spelling mistakes?

 

[xBiffx]

The banned list can be argued as a combination of avoiding disruption and being relevant to the educational interests of the students, in the exact same way restricting language in a Spanish class could.

Not to any sane, rational, and objective person. That's the point you keep conveniently ignoring.

 

[Exophase]

Not to any sane, rational, and objective person. That's the point you keep conveniently ignoring.

That's just your opinion. Go google it, this isn't the only teacher doing something like this. Here's an example:

http://k6educators.about.com/cs/literature/a/banningwords.htm

But I guess you think these people are all insane, irrational, and not objective and you have better insight in what's acceptable for education than they would.

 

[xBiffx]

That's just your opinion. Go google it, this isn't the only teacher doing something like this. Here's an example:

http://k6educators.about.com/cs/literature/a/banningwords.htm

But I guess you think these people are all insane, irrational, and not objective and you have better insight in what's acceptable for education than they would.

Of course it is. Are you the only one entitled to one now?

 

[TerryMathews]

That's just your opinion. Go google it, this isn't the only teacher doing something like this. Here's an example:

http://k6educators.about.com/cs/literature/a/banningwords.htm

But I guess you think these people are all insane, irrational, and not objective and you have better insight in what's acceptable for education than they would.

So your argument is that if enough people do it *poof* it becomes legit?

Someone let NYPD know stop and frisk is now legal!

 

[Retro Rob]

Because it's a pointless superstition that people are taught should be said out of politeness and genuinely can and does interrupt things.

Wait...what? Saying "bless you" is a distraction and unbridled sneezing is not?

No, no...all you're focusing on is the "superstition" behind it. I don't say "bless you" personally, but people say it generally as a reaction and not becasue they think a part of your soul is leaving your body, or whatever people initially said it meant, so I agree with you on that.

You're making a mountain out of a mole. The teacher is petty, stupid, and irrational if this causes anything more than a polite "excuse me" or "thank you".

Some people simply hate anything religious, I guess.

 

[Moonbeam]

If you're trying to make some kind of point you're not doing a very good job.

I would explain but I fear it would embarrass you. You missed something so obvious it was kind of sad.

 

[Uppsala9496]

I think the key point here is that the student didn't say 'bless you' in a normal voice.

"Turner's parents say the school leaders claim the outburst was a classroom distraction and that she shouted "bless you" across the room."

So the kid decided to push the classroom rules and shout bless you in an attempt to make a point. Was kicked out of class as a result. This kind of shit happens all the time and doesn't make the news.

 

[TerryMathews]

I'm not arguing from a position that people shouldn't say it, I'm arguing for how the teacher can forbid it without it being a BS reason.

A teacher is going to have to maintain some level of control over the classroom in order to teach even remotely effectively. That includes limiting when the students can talk and what they're allowed to say. The Tinker standard is really something that extends beyond the control a teacher has in the classroom. We're not talking about the principal enacting a school-wide ban. We're also not talking about a real suspension - more like the student left the classroom (either voluntarily or because she was asked to leave) and the school put her in ISS for the period because that's what they do with students who aren't in class.

The banned list can be argued as a combination of avoiding disruption and being relevant to the educational interests of the students, in the exact same way restricting language in a Spanish class could. Consider if this is a creative writing class, and the teacher is trying to get the students to avoid dull/vague/generic terms to improve their skills of English expression. She's telling the students not to say these words, but do we know exactly what the reprimand is if they do, other than reminding them not to? How far does enforcing the first amendment go - teachers not allowed to correct bad grammar or mark points off of papers for spelling mistakes?

Tinker makes no such distinction between-class wide and school-wide.

The bottom line is that if a teacher needs to exert crowd control it needs to be on a situation basis to be legal. Banning words for no good, no specific reason is not compliant with the intent of Tinker.

If you sneeze and I say bless you that is not disruptive. Period. If it happens 30 times in 5 minutes it is disruptive and in that case the situation needs to be addresses.

To paraphrase Sam Axe: "you know teachers... Bunch of bitchy little girls."

 

[xBiffx]

I think the key point here is that the student didn't say 'bless you' in a normal voice.

"Turner's parents say the school leaders claim the outburst was a classroom distraction and that she shouted "bless you" across the room."

So the kid decided to push the classroom rules and shout bless you in an attempt to make a point. Was kicked out of class as a result. This kind of shit happens all the time and doesn't make the news.

I can see that chain of events occurring. I'd agree that deserves some punishment.

I don't think that the events are the newsworthy part. Its the teacher and the dipshit list that are raising eyebrows. In that respect, the outburst would appear to have worked as intended.

 

[Exophase]

Of course it is. Are you the only one entitled to one now?

You said that I keep missing the point that what this teacher is doing something totally irrational. I said I don't agree it's irrational. How is that saying you're not entitled to your opinion? But you seem to want me to accept it as fact without much in the way of an argument behind it, outside of saying everyone else agrees with it.

Wait...what? Saying "bless you" is a distraction and unbridled sneezing is not?

I never said that. Sneezing is a distraction too but you can't very well tell people to stop sneezing.

No, no...all you're focusing on is the "superstition" behind it. I don't say "bless you" personally, but people say it generally as a reaction and not becasue they think a part of your soul is leaving your body, or whatever people initially said it meant, so I agree with you on that.

You're making a mountain out of a mole. The teacher is petty, stupid, and irrational if this causes anything more than a polite "excuse me" or "thank you".

Some people simply hate anything religious, I guess.

I gave a long description about why it's distracting, and all you did was pick out that I called it superstitious. And I'm the one focusing on religion? The only reason I made that post in the first place is because the challenge was made that there wasn't a possible valid reason why people should be discouraged from saying it.

This isn't about the words used. I would make exactly the same argument about the more secular "gesundheit." Yes, I said it was derived from superstition, but that wasn't really the point. It may not have any kind of spiritual implication when said today, but it's like a superstition of old in the sense that it's a social norm that people do out of learned habit without really thinking about it. And then people are afraid to not say something because they're worried it'll make them look impolite. Telling the whole class to stop saying it would also solve that problem.

Not one iota about anything I've posted is about hating something just for being religious.

 

[Exophase]

So your argument is that if enough people do it *poof* it becomes legit?

Someone let NYPD know stop and frisk is now legal!

No, my argument is that other people who are in a position to know see educational value in this, and aren't doing it just to be mean or discriminatory. You keep saying that the teachers need a reason to ban the words, I keep saying that there's an argument for educational relevance.