Girl shoots herself with grandma's gun at Sams Club store

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: techs
Because most people don't see the need, and understands you are thousands of times more likely to get killed if you own a gun than if you don't.

please prove that.

/popcorn

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Darwin333

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: KB
I know you are posting this just because the CCW fans post everytime some CCW does something. This case is very rare, and no where near a DAILY occurrence. If it was, you would be posting a new one everyday.

It is an unfortunate event and definitely the grandma is at fault; however we can't make a pro/con CCW decision on one case alone. This is something both sides need to realize.

Whats interesting is that in PA it costs 5 dollars and a quick background check to get a CCW. This means every "joe moron" can carry in PA and we don't see too many CCW negatives (or for that matter too many CCW positives) coming out of PA.

What's also rare is someone with a CCW saving the day because of it. It does happen but it's extremely rare.

Shrug, depends on what you mean by "saving the day". My CCW has protected me from a would be mugger. I know half a dozen people who can say the same.

Oh, all of those situations ended without a single shot being fired. Bad guys typically run away when they discover their prey can defend themselves. No point in getting into a shootout when they can simply move on to someone who can't defend themselves.

"My CCW has protected me from a would be mugger. I know half a dozen people who can say the same"

Wow. I lived in New York City for 35 years and was never mugged.

He neglected to mention that he was at a "CCW Holders Who Fought Off A Mugger" convention.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Genx87
This is really tragic.

fixed

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: getbush
Techs, do you really want an idiocracy this bad? Let's ban swimming pools while we're at it since "dry drowning" is making its rounds in the media.

Leaving a loaded weapon in arm's reach of a 4 year old, then leaving that child alone long enough to discover it, fish it out and shoot themselves in the chest with it (regardless that it doesn't take long at all - no excuse) is absolutely negligent but not a reason to punish everyone else. I really think the grandmother should be charged with something. What exactly I'm not sure but some kind of negligent manslaughter if the child does not survive would not be out of the question.

Another related point is that negative incidents from CCW are virtually always documented where often times incidents where it played a positive role are not.

The Idiocracy is in ignoring reality. The OP shows a side of reality that most seem to want to ignore.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: digiram
Don't handguns have locks on them??? How easy is it to unlock it?

WTF!!!!

Not when they're carried they don't.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: rpkelly

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: KB
I know you are posting this just because the CCW fans post everytime some CCW does something. This case is very rare, and no where near a DAILY occurrence. If it was, you would be posting a new one everyday.

It is an unfortunate event and definitely the grandma is at fault; however we can't make a pro/con CCW decision on one case alone. This is something both sides need to realize.

Whats interesting is that in PA it costs 5 dollars and a quick background check to get a CCW. This means every "joe moron" can carry in PA and we don't see too many CCW negatives (or for that matter too many CCW positives) coming out of PA.

Which proves my point. Since everyone in PA is a potential carrier, there should be less crime in PA, which there is not.
And if it is so easy to get a ccw why do so few have them? Because most people don't see the need, and understands you are thousands of times more likely to get killed if you own a gun than if you don't.
The heroic "I can save the day if I have a gun" mentality people are exactly the people who SHOULDN'T have a ccw.

Feel free to post stats.

There are none, it's a load of crap.

He probably means the whole '30 times' misquote from kellerman that has been debunked by everyone including kellerman.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
If grandma is backing her car out of the driveway and the kid runs behind it and gets hit, should we disallow drivers licenses and/or cars?

No. Just take them away from the elderly.




Sorry, I live in FL.

 

[getbush]

Originally posted by: sandorski
The Idiocracy is in ignoring reality. The OP shows a side of reality that most seem to want to ignore.

Nobody is ignoring that a tragic event took place. The reality is that accidents happen when people are negligent. You can't strip the rights of a few hundred million to protect idiots from themselves. That's reality.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: getbush

Originally posted by: sandorski
The Idiocracy is in ignoring reality. The OP shows a side of reality that most seem to want to ignore.

You can't strip the rights of a few hundred million to protect idiots from themselves. That's reality.

I feel the same way about the the war on drugs tbh.

 

[getbush]

You can't compare drugs to weapons. Apples and oranges.

 

[NeoV]

"130,000-2.5 million defensive gun uses. "

Again, a completely made up number quoted as proof that CCW is a good thing.

Two questions - what the hell kind of F'd up country do we live in if there are 2.5 MILLION incidents that someone needed to defend themselves by having a gun on them - on top of the number of crimes that are not prevented? Is this the wild west, the new frontier, or 2008 in what is supposed to be the most advanced country in the world?

2nd - why, after all these years, can't some of the billions of dollars that gun-makers earn go towards developing a child-proof gun? Should it be that hard to make a gun that a 4 year old can't physically fire?

For the record, I'm not saying we need to ban guns here in the US - because I know it will never happen. All common sense flies out the window in any gun discussion though.

Finally - for those saying that this is a 'stretch' for the OP - feel free to say the same thing every time one of the gun brothers makes their weekly "see this crime, could have been prevented if CCW wasn't stopped there".

 

[thraashman]

We're gonna have fun with statistics just cuz people seem to want em.

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)

In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)

American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)




In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S:

12,352 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
17,002 suicides (55% of all U.S gun deaths),
789 unintentional shootings, 330 from legal intervention and 221 from undetermined intent (5% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
- Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2008



A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.
-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)




Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:
373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States





Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.



While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public



And if you actually look it up instead of make BS statements. The Kellerman report has in no way been debunked. At most he used data from urban areas where the numbers would be different than in suburban or rural. But due to an NRA lobby, the funding the CDC provided for the report was cut from future studies. Because the NRA is far more concerned with continuing to shoot things than the truth and safety.

 

[getbush]

I agree with the number thing. It's hard to pin down so why use it. 130,000 - 2,500,000 is a huge range.

A gun that any 4 year old can't fire is easy - any gun that isn't in their hands. That's where the negligence comes in. By that age kids have enough dexterity and strength to operate any useful small arm.

 

[rudder]

In 2005 there were 3,582 unintentional drownings in the U.S. We need to ban swimming.

 

[eleison]

A lot of young gangbangers are classified as kids and skew the stats.. More "regular" kids die from swimming pools than from firearms.

http://www.alphecca.com/mt_alp...a_archives/001356.html


Gun control is a dead horse. Nobody really believes in it anymore. A few years a go, many of my friends were shocked that I was a NRA member and kinda disgusted that I had firearms. Now a days, most people I know are open to the idea of owning firearms. They maybe still be a little scared of them, IMHO, but they respect the reason why people own them... and surprisingly they seem to all respect the 2nd amend which a couple of years ago they did not.

The below arguments have been treaded before. Only the hardcore guncontrol folks believe it. The general public does not. Remember the rate of ownership of guns is going up.. so is membership in firearm clubs.

Accidents will happen. Kids accidentally getting shot, while tragic, is in the same league as kids getting running over because there mom was accidentally backing out the SUV without noticing their kids in the driveway. To ban guns because of this, is like baning cars.

Originally posted by: thraashman
We're gonna have fun with statistics just cuz people seem to want em.

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)

In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)

American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)




In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S:

12,352 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
17,002 suicides (55% of all U.S gun deaths),
789 unintentional shootings, 330 from legal intervention and 221 from undetermined intent (5% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
- Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2008



A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.
-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)




Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:
373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States





Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.



While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public



And if you actually look it up instead of make BS statements. The Kellerman report has in no way been debunked. At most he used data from urban areas where the numbers would be different than in suburban or rural. But due to an NRA lobby, the funding the CDC provided for the report was cut from future studies. Because the NRA is far more concerned with continuing to shoot things than the truth and safety.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: NeoV
"130,000-2.5 million defensive gun uses. "

Again, a completely made up number quoted as proof that CCW is a good thing.

Two questions - what the hell kind of F'd up country do we live in if there are 2.5 MILLION incidents that someone needed to defend themselves by having a gun on them - on top of the number of crimes that are not prevented? Is this the wild west, the new frontier, or 2008 in what is supposed to be the most advanced country in the world?

2nd - why, after all these years, can't some of the billions of dollars that gun-makers earn go towards developing a child-proof gun? Should it be that hard to make a gun that a 4 year old can't physically fire?

For the record, I'm not saying we need to ban guns here in the US - because I know it will never happen. All common sense flies out the window in any gun discussion though.

Finally - for those saying that this is a 'stretch' for the OP - feel free to say the same thing every time one of the gun brothers makes their weekly "see this crime, could have been prevented if CCW wasn't stopped there".

No, just your ignorance of the topic. If you claim something is made up you'd better have some SERIOUS support. I can link the studies, what can you do?

There are a number of studies, each with different methodologies and based on entirely different datasets. That's why there's such a huge gap. The two most commonly accepted figures are 300,000 and 2.5 million. Even though I'm strongly pro-gun after careful examination of the methodology and data I'm more partial to the 300,000 number. Regardless of the correct number, it's so much greater than the negative numbers that it just doesn't matter.

We have a fucked up country, period. Too much crime, to much SES dysfunction. Fortunately we have a way to defend ourselves.

Interestingly enough one of the reasons kids so often shoot themselves is that they pull the trigger with their thumbs, because it's the only digit strong enough to do so...so the kid has to point the gun at themselves to pull it.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: thraashman
We're gonna have fun with statistics just cuz people seem to want em.

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)

In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)

The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)

American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)




In 2005 (the most recent year for which data is available), there were 30,694 gun deaths in the U.S:

12,352 homicides (40% of all U.S gun deaths),
17,002 suicides (55% of all U.S gun deaths),
789 unintentional shootings, 330 from legal intervention and 221 from undetermined intent (5% of all U.S gun deaths combined).
- Numbers obtained from CDC National Center for Health Statistics mortality report online, 2008



A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present.
-Kellerman AL, Rivara FP, Somes G, et al. "Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership." NEJM. 1992; 327(7):467-472)




Comparison of U.S. gun homicides to other industrialized countries:
In 1998 (the most recent year for which this data has been compiled), handguns murdered:
373 people in Germany
151 people in Canada
57 people in Australia
19 people in Japan
54 people in England and Wales, and
11,789 people in the United States





Among 26 industrialized nations, 86% of gun deaths among children under age 15 occurred in the United States.



While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense.
- Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public



And if you actually look it up instead of make BS statements. The Kellerman report has in no way been debunked. At most he used data from urban areas where the numbers would be different than in suburban or rural. But due to an NRA lobby, the funding the CDC provided for the report was cut from future studies. Because the NRA is far more concerned with continuing to shoot things than the truth and safety.

You are completely wrong, and are cherry picking statistics.

Look up suicide rates in other nations. Not just firearm suicide, all suicide. You'll find the US ranks fairly low. If people don't have guns they just do it a different way.

Kellerman has been 100% TOTALLY DEBUNKED by EVERY reputable source INCLUDING Kellerman himself. He readjusted all of his estimates down to negligible numbers, and finally threw in the towel, refusing to answer criticisms of his methodology any further. He has since contributed to PRO GUN articles (albeit, with reasonable restrictions). For instance, he acknowledges that there can be no causation established between gun access and gun crime overall, since Israel and many other nations have high accessibility but low crime.

If there was ANY support for your side, why could the National Academy of Sciences (an anti-gun group) funded by the Clintons and democrats (strong anti-gunners) not find ANY support for gun control in the largest, longest, best funded study of all time?

Please answer that question.

 

[getbush]

In all of those statistics, how many of those crimes were committed by a CCW holder? Isn't that the issue? Nice red herring.

 

[getbush]

Originally posted by: rudder
In 2005 there were 3,582 unintentional drownings in the U.S. We need to ban swimming.

Amen.

 

[Stoneburner]

I think the point of the OP was that if more people carry around guns the greater chance there is for stupidity like this to occur. It's very straightforward.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: getbush

Originally posted by: rudder
In 2005 there were 3,582 unintentional drownings in the U.S. We need to ban swimming.

Amen.

Out of how many swimmers/bathers in situations where drowning is possible? 300 million people taking baths or going swimming in pools/oceans/lakes, or boating/jetskiing, kayaking, etc? 3500 deaths out of how many hundreds of millions of possibilities for such deaths?

Comparison Fail.

There's plenty of legit arguments for gun ownership, so I never get why people descend into horrible inapplicable comparisons.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: getbush

Originally posted by: rudder
In 2005 there were 3,582 unintentional drownings in the U.S. We need to ban swimming.

Amen.

Out of how many swimmers/bathers in situations where drowning is possible? 300 million people taking baths or going swimming in pools/oceans/lakes, or boating/jetskiing, kayaking, etc? 3500 deaths out of how many hundreds of millions of possibilities for such deaths?

Comparison Fail.

There's plenty of legit arguments for gun ownership, so I never get why people descend into horrible inapplicable comparisons.

In the concealed carry states, how many people regular carry guns? In texas, how many carry guns in public w/o the public even knowing?

Most people I knew when living in conceal carry states, carried their firearms 24*7 -- how many possibilities for death? In homes that have firearms, how many guest comes into contact with the armed family?

It can also be debated that "possiblities" should not matter when considering safety. If 3500 kids die in swimming pools, 3500 kids died. Assuming that less kids are killed with firearms, why ban firearms? Find the thing that killed more people and ban that.

Its like saying product X killed 500000 kids and product Y killed 2000 kids, but lets ban product Y because product Y was not as common than product X. Who cares? Baning product Y would save more kids. After all, thats what its all about -- saving lives right? Not ratios or "possibilities"..

 

[thraashman]

Hey, people asked for statistics, I gave statistics. In fact I was the only person willing to give ACTUAL statistics for either side. I don't give a damn if you own a gun or not, but if you do be safe about it.

I personally don't like guns, don't own one, and won't own one. I live in work in a major city that has at times had a high crime rate. To this day I've known of only one person who was the victim of a violent crime (well 2 technically, but one survived and escaped). And yes is involved a gun. And that was in the suburbs. I've also known several gun owners, and even a couple of what I'd call gun nuts. I've not known a single person who owned a gun whoever got a chance to use it in a self defense aspect.

I've never met a single driver in my life who thought the idea of making a car safer was a bad idea. But I've never met a single gun owner who didn't go apeshit crazy at the idea of making guns safer. Of all people I've interacted with, gun owners are only beaten out by a few groups when it comes to zealotry. My personal favorite was when I met a girl a couple weeks ago that got downright foaming angry at me because I won't own a gun.

I seriously want to know why in the hell gun owners seem to be so against making guns safer. Why is it that the NRA attacks anyone who says something about lessening violence by controlling guns better, instead of actually trying to lessen violence? I don't get it.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: Genx87
This is really weak.

It's as weak the "CCW saves the day" or "Why wasn't there a CCW to stop this madman" threads that we get subjected to every week around this place.. Why can't we get the bad with the good?


The simplest fact is that more people with more guns will lead to more people getting shot.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: thraashman
Hey, people asked for statistics, I gave statistics. In fact I was the only person willing to give ACTUAL statistics for either side. I don't give a damn if you own a gun or not, but if you do be safe about it.

I personally don't like guns, don't own one, and won't own one. I live in work in a major city that has at times had a high crime rate. To this day I've known of only one person who was the victim of a violent crime (well 2 technically, but one survived and escaped). And yes is involved a gun. And that was in the suburbs. I've also known several gun owners, and even a couple of what I'd call gun nuts. I've not known a single person who owned a gun whoever got a chance to use it in a self defense aspect.

I've never met a single driver in my life who thought the idea of making a car safer was a bad idea. But I've never met a single gun owner who didn't go apeshit crazy at the idea of making guns safer. Of all people I've interacted with, gun owners are only beaten out by a few groups when it comes to zealotry. My personal favorite was when I met a girl a couple weeks ago that got downright foaming angry at me because I won't own a gun.

I seriously want to know why in the hell gun owners seem to be so against making guns safer. Why is it that the NRA attacks anyone who says something about lessening violence by controlling guns better, instead of actually trying to lessen violence? I don't get it.

my friend, you are on the losing side hahaha.. you remind me of my college buddies 3 years ago... Don't know what happened... but they ultimately did a 180.

I think a lot of gun owners are smart with respect to keeping their 2nd admend rights. I think they believe that rights can be chipped away. Look at smoking. It all started so harmlessly.