Getting used to slower... or... "going green".

[exar333]

I think there is a lot to gain by looking at peripherals as well. When I measured my LCD displays (IDC's thread below) my 2408 was over 3x the usage vs. my 2412. As I added another 2408 to my setup for 3x1200P, I was using ~160w total when active. Since replacing that with my 34um95, it cut this by almost exactly 2/3. That probably translates into $5-10/month I am saving with my usage levels. That is pretty nice.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2307345&page=9&highlight=kill+watt

 

[ShintaiDK]

Well, going from an overclocked Q9300 @ 3.0 and HD4850 card (280W), with a 26" LCD (65W), to a C-70 (15W) and a 24" LED LCD HDTV (25W) should def. make a difference in temps.

I do have several lights on, most all of them are CFLs. The refridgerator / freezer was provided with the apt, I have no idea about its energy efficiency.

I'm sure that my A/C that runs nearly continuously is probably my biggest source of power usage.

But you would get close to the same idle/regular usage wattage with a haswell pentium for example.

You really need to check the appliance. An older fridge/freezer can easy use 3-5Kw/h a day. A bad one up to 10-15Kw/h a day. While a modern one usually use around 0.5Kw/h a day.

 

[ElFenix]

So, I used to use a pair of Q9300 rigs @ 3.0, 8GB DDR2, HD4850 as my "main" rigs. But they crank out 280W at the wall doing DC.

i had a fairly similar setup (Q8400 and 4870). at idle it was sitting around 140 watts. i undervolted the Q8400 by quite a bit (it'd hit 3.2 on stock voltage, at stock speed i had it down under 1.1v load and near .9 at idle, iirc). i did a processor upgrade to a 3570k and didn't save much on the wattage, maybe 10 watts. changing to a 7950 graphics card saved nearly 40 watts at idle, iirc. on top of that, i changed from an old dell 2006wfp (CCFL backlight) to a 2713hm (LED backlight) which saved another ~35 watts. those changes, along with a gold seasonic power supply, changed the computer from being a space heater at idle and obnoxious while gaming to being much more livable during the hot summer months.

just got the overclockable pentium. idles at 30 watts using an SSD and a plain-jane corsair C430. my i3 is about double that but it's got a couple spinning drives and a graphics card (P67 board - refurb selection isn't great).

You really need to check the appliance. An older fridge/freezer can easy use 3-5Kw/h a day. A bad one up to 10-15Kw/h a day. While a modern one usually use around 0.5Kw/h a day.

seems like he's a renter, if so there's not much he can do about appliances.

 

[Qwertilot]

Monitors can definitely be fairly huge power consumption wise. Dominant in non gaming use even.

Look at the monitor reviews on the main site for 27/28" (2560x1440) models - the Dell 2713M and Asus PB287Q are around 40W max, plenty of models comfortably over 100.

4K displays are going to need watching carefully for a bit I'd imagine.

 

[VirtualLarry]

But you would get close to the same idle/regular usage wattage with a haswell pentium for example.

Well, that's probably true. After this fairly sucessful experiment, I might just get some Antec ISK cases (Edit: Nevermind, ISK VESA is $80), and while I don't need the CPU grunt of a Haswell Celeron or Pentium, I might just get a couple of the Biostar 1037U boards. I'm perfectly happy with the 1007U in my netbook.

You really need to check the appliance. An older fridge/freezer can easy use 3-5Kw/h a day. A bad one up to 10-15Kw/h a day. While a modern one usually use around 0.5Kw/h a day.

I totally get what you're saying, but ... that's outside of my responsibility. The apartment management pays the electricity, and they are responsible for the appliances (except for the A/C).

Part of the reason that I want to reduce my power usage, though, is that this complex runs at a deficit, so I'm doing my part to not burden them.

I also have electric heat, so it makes more sense to break out the high-powered PCs during the winter, and do distributed-computing on them, to heat my apt. I did that back at my old apt., but I was paying for my own electric then.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Well, that's probably true. After this fairly sucessful experiment, I might just get some Antec ISK cases, and while I don't need the CPU grunt of a Haswell Celeron or Pentium, I might just get a couple of the Biostar 1037U boards. I'm perfectly happy with the 1007U in my netbook.

If you don't mind doing a bit of tweaking, regular Haswells can undervolt pretty far. Or you could just get an T-series Pentium/i3 for a guaranteed undervolt. That'll put a clamp on how much energy it can use, but you'll sacrifice a bit of performance...

 

[aigomorla]

lol larry all your green questions are cracking me up.

My computer sits and idles at 400W.
Yup thats more power then some who have posted on load.

I cant Sleep it or suspend the PC's due to its complex LC eq, the sleep restart cycles are very bad on LC pumps.
(i havent lost a single pump on this system, while i have lost 3 on a system which sleeps, so i decided no more Sleep cycles on my LC systems)

So it guzzles 400W even if im not home 5-6hours each day.


Anyhow... with the power savings on today's new processors, i dont think u need to worry that much.
The difference honestly will be less then a few 100W on the idle / off position.
The power draw on the used state will also be very small if you consider that your not cryptomining bitcoins or something which requires your PC to be on load all the time.

I honestly think your thinking too hard about power draw and power wastage.
We havent used anything that inefficient in power since prescott days of the P4.

I tell my friends who are "green" the same thing.
If they want to save electricity, replace your home lights to LED's, as you will net a bigger benifit.
Even turning your AC to 75F instead of 60F will net u a much greater benefit then putting your PC to sleep all the time.

Right now i think your trying to milk the VERY last portion on the energy grid in trying to conserve power. Which also is the hardest to do, as the net benefits on that end is very small.

Well, going from an overclocked Q9300 @ 3.0 and HD4850 card (280W), with a 26" LCD (65W), to a C-70 (15W) and a 24" LED LCD HDTV (25W) should def. make a difference in temps.

This isnt even on a the same floor tho.
The 4850 which probably constitutes for 40% if not more of the power draw vs the C-70 Ivy wasnt factored in.

Also the GPU prowess of the 4850 vs HD2500 is very big.

In a relationship grid... ud save more power % wise going from a magnetic to a SSD.

but again... your looking at the very bottom of the ways one can save power.
When u factor it in on the total demand power of the entire unit, it translates to pocket change.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I guess if I had gone Intel, I could have had my cake (good CPU power when you need it) and ate it too (low power at idle). Ah well. But to have gone Intel, would have cost quite a bit more. It's always a tradeoff, isn't it.

I bought a 1045T instead of a 2500K setup a few years back, and while I enjoyed it for a while, I no longer run it because of the power demands, and the heat output. (Though I could in the winter, I suppose.)

Edit: I was interested at one point in picking up two more NanoPCs, except that they were white with Intel Celeron 847 1.1Ghz dual-cores in them. Newegg cleared them out for $99.99 FS, with free "magnetic" external USB DVD-RW drive (also in white). I figured that they would be a little bit faster than the AT-5570 C-70 NanoPCs, although the GPU wouldn't be as good. (Unknown if you can do 1080P video on a Celeron 847, although, I suppose you probably could.)

Edit: I was also looking at 1037U-based Brix units, but they discontinued those quite quickly. Now their low-end (read: affordable for me) Brix units are Bay Trail.

At least the original 847-based NUC is still available, but considering what you get for the price, the ECS LIVA seems cheaper. (NUC 847 is $150, but still need miniPCIe wifi, RAM, and mSATA SSD. Not to mention OS.)

Asus VivoPC seems like a better deal still than the LIVA, if you need a bundled OS.
It comes as a complete 1007U-based PC with AC wifi for $250.

 

[SPBHM]

PII X6 idle power usage shouldn't be to bad...

my 2007 PC (a64 x2) is using less than 50w idle, the last C2Q I had was using around 40w idle (2.5Ghz 12mb l2) and 100w encoding videos...

efficient motherboard and using IGPs, or a new VGA is essential to get acceptable power usage from older PCs I think.

if you want something power efficient and faster grab a cheap laptop... any pentium 2020m + ssd is going to feel pretty decent and not cost a lot,
idle power usage for the entire thing, including screen is probably less than 15w, load around 40w

 

[cbn]

Edit: I was interested at one point in picking up two more NanoPCs, except that they were white with Intel Celeron 847 1.1Ghz dual-cores in them. Newegg cleared them out for $99.99 FS, with free "magnetic" external USB DVD-RW drive (also in white). I figured that they would be a little bit faster than the AT-5570 C-70 NanoPCs, although the GPU wouldn't be as good. (Unknown if you can do 1080P video on a Celeron 847, although, I suppose you probably could.)

847 is much faster than C70:

Here is a review of 847 (one of the comparisons is the E-350, which is faster than C70):

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/celeron-847.html

 

[Abwx]

Well, that's probably true. After this fairly sucessful experiment, I might just get some Antec ISK cases (Edit: Nevermind, ISK VESA is $80)

I bought an ISK110 for a Kabini based PC to replace a core 2 duo whose idle comsumption was 60W despite using an IGP.

A few numbers :

W8.1 screen Screen off LINPACK PRIME 95 TT

10.8W 10.35W 28.5W 29.6W


Asrock AM1H
Athlon 5350
8Gb 1600Mhz 1.35V
SSD 128Go
HDD 320Go
keyboard PS2
wireless mouse USB
Wifi USB
brick 65W 15V

Screen comsumption is 20W but i reduced a capacitor value wich is used to compensate the power factor, this capacitor increase comsumption by
5 to 8W on most panels as it s often oversized because it s the same PSU
that is often used for screens that have much higher comsumption.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, I thought I could handle the slowness of these Foxconn NanoPC AT-5570 units, but I guess not.

A buddy and I were on Skype, and it was using 97% of the CPU, and I couldn't do anything besides. Web browsing was slow as ... well, use your imagination. I was trying to copy a file over the wireless network (Intel 2200 Wifi in the NanoPC), and with a 13-14Mbit/sec connection, it was going to take 45 minutes. CPU usage of the copy dialog was 18% !

If I'm not running Skype, then I can browse the web, and either listen to internet radio, or do distributed-computing in the background, but not both. I have to close BOINC, to avoid interruptions in the internet radio. Even when it is strictly CPU-based compute, and not GPU.

The biggest problem is Skype though. This little CPU just can't quite handle it, I guess.

I'm sad that the Foxconn Celeron 847 1.1Ghz dual-core NanoPCs aren't available anymore, nor the Gigabyte 1037U-based Brix units. Either one of those would have been a nice step up from the C-70 in my current unit.

However, hope is in sight. Foxconn has a J1800 dual-core Bay Trail, and a J1900 quad-core 2.0Ghz Bay Trail NanoPC. Both are listed at Newegg, but are OOS. I think that they are new and haven't come into stock yet. The J1900 one is $169.99. A little steep, but Passmark rating for the J1900 is slightly higher than the 1037U. (Single-threaded is slower though.)

So I have to decide, if I want to stay with the NanoPC form-factor, and consider a Bay Trail quad-core (I have yet to try a Bay Trail to see how it "feels" web browsing), or possibly consider just getting a couple of Asus VivoPC 1007U-based units. They are relatively inexpensive, considering that they are complete PCs, with RAM, HDD, and OS (Windows 8.1).

Would a 1007U or a J1900 be faster for web browsing? Skype?

Would either one of them be able to handle Skype, WHILE web browsing, AND burning a disc on a USB external burner?

I haven't tried burning anything on my 1007U laptop, but it handles Skype and web browsing at the same time with aplomb.

 

[BSim500]

Would a 1007U or a J1900 be faster for web browsing? Skype? Would either one of them be able to handle Skype, WHILE web browsing, AND burning a disc on a USB external burner?.

Marginally. Problem with web browsing (and flash) is it's still largely single-threaded with unequal usage, ie, idle most of the time before rapidly "peaking" primarily 1-core upon loading a heavy page which punishes slow Atom CPU's. A dual-core Pentium 3240T / i3-xxxxU is likely to be far faster & feel smoother browsing than any Atom based system (even quads). I've tried Atom's & they're great for passive laptops / long battery life, etc, but for "green desktops", to be brutally honest, a Pentium feels a lot smoother and is a lot less frustrating to run in quite a lot of tasks (heavy web browsing being one of them).

If you're dead set on the nano format (instead of Mini-ITX - and there are some decent "thin" M-ITX cases out now), personally I'd hold out for a Pentium "T" or i3-xxxU based CPU which are a lot faster than Atom's but still run around only 15-20w. Again this is "worst case peak load". Idle power consumption is probably a couple watts higher than atoms but the overall day to day experience is a lot less frustrating.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

If you're dead set on the nano format (instead of Mini-ITX - and there are some decent "thin" M-ITX cases out now), personally I'd hold out for a Pentium "T" or i3-xxxU based CPU which are a lot faster than Atom's but still run around only 15-20w. Again this is "worst case peak load". Idle power consumption is probably a couple watts higher than atoms but the overall day to day experience is a lot less frustrating.

Actually, Supermicro has some ITX boards with BGA mobile Ivy's. But they're pretty expensive. To the point where you could run a regular T-series Pentium/i3 for 5-10+ years to cover the cost...

Larry, it does seem like you're chasing last percentage power-savings that's really difficult and uneconomical. I still think a T-series i3 in an ITX board would be better and more economical in the long run, coupled with a low-rated 80+ Platinum-certified PSU. Such a system could properly get down to 10-15W idle, while still providing all the performance you require.

 

[alyarb]

There is no reason NOT to buy intel for power and performance, even if you can't afford it new. That is just not a reason these days because for the past 3 generations intel has still been way more efficient than anything AMD has put out. Get something used if you are really broke, plenty of really good stuff out there.

I do not understand why you would pay for some mobile embedded processor to run as a desktop especially if you want to use these real-time encode\decode apps. Stream media and Skype call on a C70? At the same time??? Come on dude... why spend good money on the lowest-power stuff you can find and then try to put too big a workload on it? You already knew this would happen.

I have a big media server upstairs, so downstairs in the living room we have no HTPC per se, but we have a range of devices all over that can do playback via DLNA. ps3, xbox etc.

So how to make an interesting and reasonably slim computer for downstairs? I got one of these for $110 a week ago:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lenovo-Thin...4071&clkid=8262694839015239319&_qi=RTM1562570


SFF Quad core Sandy i5, came with 4 gigs in single channel (and anyone like me has a second stick of RAM already waiting to go in). you can fit a 3-inch drive and two SSDs inside it (with tape or whatever), as well as a low profile GTX 750 Ti as soon as they are available (from Galaxy). So by the end of this project I will have spent well UNDER $300 on a quad core intel machine with a GTX 750 Ti, all in a <4 inch wide SFF box. Fits right behind the TV, doesn't make a sound.

No, the lenovo's not as small as that nano thing you bought, but it's a real desktop and it was cheaper. Intel NUC, Asrock Vision, or the Mac Mini are some of the few acceptable machines in that super small size you are going for, and those aren't exactly $100 either.

Going green is one thing, but if it doesn't allow you to work and use apps the way you are used to working, what is your true net efficiency? It's reduced. Everything has a sweet spot and I think you went beyond it and now have an underpowered system for the work you do.

 

[2is]

Why are you doing any DC projects at all if you're that concerned with power consumption?

Also, at the rate you're hunting and buying the most efficient setup you can find, I highly doubt you will ever recoup those costs via power savings in your lifetime.

 

[Flapdrol1337]

Best for the environment and the wallet is probably to use a system until it breaks.

 

[Ranulf]

Why are you doing any DC projects at all if you're that concerned with power consumption?

Also, at the rate you're hunting and buying the most efficient setup you can find, I highly doubt you will ever recoup those costs via power savings in your lifetime.

Ditto the above. I get the challenge of the quest to reduce usage (and cash savings) but there is a limit. I debated getting one of those i3 "T" chips a few months ago. $10 more for 2.9ghz using 34w vs 3.4ghz and 54w. At full load with my $/kwh rates it would take over two years to break even given the $10 price difference. Since that I was just building a basic server, its not going to be at full load all the time so I went with the non "green" version.

My best experiences on power savings has been swapping out older bulbs for CFL where I can or LEDs now. I have a CFL 60w replacement type that pulls 13w running 6-7 hours a day, 365/year and its still going strong after 3 years.

Oh and my AMD PII 955 (stock 3.2ghz) uses 20w at idle/light web surfing.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Another powersaver hint for the treehugger.

Halogen to LED. Usually applies to bathroom.

We went from 300-210W with 6 spots depending if using regular or eco halogens to 33.5W. We got a brighter and better light. And the LEDs will outlast a halogen between 25 and 50 times. Just the light change in the bathroom with brighter and 200K up in temperature made it look like we got a brand new bathroom.

I can recommend this:
http://www.any-lamp.com/philips-ledspot-mv-d-5-5-50w-gu10-830-40d-master/

It will quickly pay itself back. Not just in power usage, but also in the replacement factor. Plus you get better light as a bonus.

Remember you can get LED spots in usually 3 colourtemperatures. 2700K(Yellowish), 3000K(White) and 4000K(Blueish). Regular blubs are 2700K and halogens tends to be 2800K as compare.

Also make sure you check the light angle on the spot as well. It is 40 degrees on the one I listed.

Always start to buy one to test with.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I can recommend this:
http://www.any-lamp.com/philips-ledspot-mv-d-5-5-50w-gu10-830-40d-master/

Ditto to that. Philips LEDs are very good.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Another powersaver hint for the treehugger.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no treehugger. I just don't want to be sweating in front of my computers in the summertime, and listening to my video card fan spin at 9000 RPM because it's at its thermal limits.

Halogen to LED. Usually applies to bathroom.

We went from 300-210W with 6 spots depending if using regular or eco halogens to 33.5W. We got a brighter and better light. And the LEDs will outlast a halogen between 25 and 50 times. Just the light change in the bathroom with brighter and 200K up in temperature made it look like we got a brand new bathroom.

I can recommend this:
http://www.any-lamp.com/philips-ledspot-mv-d-5-5-50w-gu10-830-40d-master/

It will quickly pay itself back. Not just in power usage, but also in the replacement factor. Plus you get better light as a bonus.

Remember you can get LED spots in usually 3 colourtemperatures. 2700K(Yellowish), 3000K(White) and 4000K(Blueish). Regular blubs are 2700K and halogens tends to be 2800K as compare.

Also make sure you check the light angle on the spot as well. It is 40 degrees on the one I listed.

Always start to buy one to test with.

That makes good sense. I've thought about LED bulbs, but most of them aren't rated for closed enclosures. My ceiling lights are in a glass enclosure. So is my (one) bathroom bulb.

 

[escrow4]

There is a reason you next to never see basic business boxes with less than an i3. I wouldn't build or use any PC/laptop with less than an i3/i3 mobile. That is an absolute minimum. You have some grunt, you have some headroom, and Haswell i3's sip power. Those tiny cores - Atom, etc - are just rubbish for day to day work.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, I looked at getting an i3-4150 and a Gigabyte H97N-WIFI mobo, but the i3 is $100, and the board is $120 (with a $20 rebate currently). My two NanoPCs each cost $125-130 and $100, respectively.

http://www.microcenter.com/product/432159/Core_i3-4150_34GHz_LGA_1150_Boxed_Processor

http://www.microcenter.com/product/432997/GA-H97N-WIFI_LGA_1150_mini-ITX_Intel_Motherboard

An Antec ISK-110 VESA costs $80-90 additional.

 

[ShintaiDK]

You can get much cheaper boards than that. Asrock sells a H81 mITX for 60$. Plus you can always go with a Celeron for 50$. And while your NanoPCs was cheaper, they also perform as they cost.

 

[alyarb]

The thread title suggests you want to minimize your impact on the environment. To do this, you need to find a good system that works for you, and stick with it until it no longer meets your needs, then reuse\repurpose\recycle it as long as you can. In order for the system to last you a long time, you might want to start with something that is a touch overpowered but that doesn't mean at all that it has to have a large TDP.

Instead what you are doing is continually buying new stuff to chase ever-lower TDPs, but to what end? For the environment, your negligibly reduced aggregate power usage does not at all offset your increasing hazardous materials consumption. You are still buying new stuff that have environmental costs during manufacture and distribution and sale. There is a lot more to environmental responsibility than just power.

Instead, you could have bought a powerful used system for much less than what these crappy nano systems cost new at retail. Especially that it turns out the new computer is too weak, so there is not much economically nor environmentally sage activity going on here. In fact you wasted money and materials acquiring a system that is too slow and underpowered for you, so now you may have to rid yourself of it in an environmentally responsible way. Get your money back or put Doudou linux on it and give it to a preschool.

I think people like tiny systems because they look cute. With the knowledge in hand that these systems use less than a light bulb's power to run, there is a social cachet to it that the owners enjoy. Like people who only buy hybrid cars or organic foods automatically feel like they're better than someone who doesn't. I'm not accusing Larry of this, just the people at fresh market, and I am also merely suggesting that this deceptive warm-fuzzy-feeling can carry over to nettops and other nearly useless products. Or, any piece of crap that is marketed to you as the morally right thing to buy.

It could also be that Larry just really likes to shop for parts and try new stuff. For all of us, shopping and tinkering is enjoyable, but if you want to analyze this down to the zero-sum level, there is still an opportunity cost to all that fun shopping that didn't wind up working out in the end. You still could have done something else, something better, with your time and money: perhaps something even more fun than buying a computer you wanted to like, but can't, because a C-70 is a C-70 is a C-70. Life's too short for BRAZOS in 2014 people.

If a strong 9-watt machine existed that could run a system how I want, then I would say that'd be a fun machine to own. But they aren't here yet and I would NOT go searching for them under the green flag, telling yourself it's the right thing to do for earth, etc. You are just confusing the superficial for the essence at this point. You've got ancient appliances in your unit and no amount of personal electronics is going to make up for that anyway, so buy a system you can really use and just enjoy it. If the environment is important to you, don't buy crap, because all that crap still has to go somewhere when you're done with it.