Getting used to slower... or... "going green".

[BonzaiDuck]

If you're really interested in "green" wonderful-ness, I think you should look at your household refrigerators. And many people have a couple refrigerators and a deep-freeze in the bargain.

We just bought a new one to replace a 30-year-old GE. If the yellow Energy-Saver sticker says "650+ Kwh" and "$50/year" improvement, do they mean that for a ten-year-old refrigerator, an average of all likely old refrigerators, or a 30-year-old refrigerator?

We've only had this 30 cu. ft. marvel for about ten days. Every morning, we gather in the kitchen, put on Richard Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra," and jump around grunting like apes. I TOUCHED THE MONOLITH!! MY IQ increased by 50 points! It has enlightened my mind!

I need to buy some Kill-a-Watts. . . . Anyone for crushed ice in their Margarita?

 

[Idontcare]

If you're really interested in "green" wonderful-ness, I think you should look at your household refrigerators. And many people have a couple refrigerators and a deep-freeze in the bargain.

We just bought a new one to replace a 30-year-old GE. If the yellow Energy-Saver sticker says "650+ Kwh" and "$50/year" improvement, do they mean that for a ten-year-old refrigerator, an average of all likely old refrigerators, or a 30-year-old refrigerator?

We've only had this 30 cu. ft. marvel for about ten days. Every morning, we gather in the kitchen, put on Richard Strauss' "Also Sprach Zarathustra," and jump around grunting like apes. I TOUCHED THE MONOLITH!! MY IQ increased by 50 points! It has enlightened my mind!

I need to buy some Kill-a-Watts. . . . Anyone for crushed ice in their Margarita?

Damn...I'm old enough to get every single one of your puns and points What the hell! I use to be young, honest!

Seriously though you make intriguing points. What is interesting about the "green" concept is that what gets lost in the communication is "cradle to grave" environmental impact.

Sure your new fridge lower your power bill whilst simultaneously creating, and crushing, ice cubes on demand.

But how many barrels of oil were burned in the process of mining the ores, refining the metals, fabricating the electronics, and delivering the finished product to your home versus the barrels of oil that would have been burned had you elected to keep your 30yr old fridge until it was a 40yr old fridge?

This is the conundrum of the modern day "green" industry. It is only "green" if you drastically narrow down the window for which you define "environmental impact". But it loses out in a cradle-to-grave perspective nearly every time.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Its quite easy really. If the energy saving is higher than the purchase cost over x defined years for a product. Then its only idiotic not to replace it.

 

[Zodiark1593]

There are still people who use Failfox?
Download Chrome.

Can we get along now, after all, we share a common enemy (Internet Exploder).

 

[KingFatty]

Its quite easy really. If the energy saving is higher than the purchase cost over x defined years for a product. Then its only idiotic not to replace it.

I'd like to extend that too - you could also compound the savings by considering the inefficiency waste of the old unit that is to be replaced, and multiply that by years you wait to replace it.

So if the old fridge wastes $0.10 per day compared to a new one, then you also have to consider that wasted money. If you wait like 5 more years before replacing it, to see if the old fridge will die, then that's $0.10 x 365 x 5 = $182.50 of wasted energy that you could have put toward buying the new fridge today instead of 5 years in the future.

So don't just count the savings *after* the replacement, but also the current waste happening right now for using inefficient things.

Maybe this makes more sense with small things like lightbulbs, but I think it works for all large-power-consuming appliances too?

 

[ShintaiDK]

I'd like to extend that too - you could also compound the savings by considering the inefficiency waste of the old unit that is to be replaced, and multiply that by years you wait to replace it.

So if the old fridge wastes $0.10 per day compared to a new one, then you also have to consider that wasted money. If you wait like 5 more years before replacing it, to see if the old fridge will die, then that's $0.10 x 365 x 5 = $182.50 of wasted energy that you could have put toward buying the new fridge today instead of 5 years in the future.

So don't just count the savings *after* the replacement, but also the current waste happening right now for using inefficient things.

Maybe this makes more sense with small things like lightbulbs, but I think it works for all large-power-consuming appliances too?

Exactly. Thats also what I meant.

It also fuels the money makes money. Play more over the years, or pay less now and get better efficiency and a new product.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I will say this, those under-$100 combos for the G3258 and mobo are killer deals.

Everyone should buy one to upgrade their 775 rigs.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Damn...I'm old enough to get every single one of your puns and points What the hell! I use to be young, honest!

Seriously though you make intriguing points. What is interesting about the "green" concept is that what gets lost in the communication is "cradle to grave" environmental impact.

Sure your new fridge lower your power bill whilst simultaneously creating, and crushing, ice cubes on demand.

But how many barrels of oil were burned in the process of mining the ores, refining the metals, fabricating the electronics, and delivering the finished product to your home versus the barrels of oil that would have been burned had you elected to keep your 30yr old fridge until it was a 40yr old fridge?

This is the conundrum of the modern day "green" industry. It is only "green" if you drastically narrow down the window for which you define "environmental impact". But it loses out in a cradle-to-grave perspective nearly every time.

Sure -- the wider perspective. I'll need a new LI-on battery for my laptop soon. I also heard "back when" that there was a trillion dollars'-worth of Lithium and other minerals in Afghanistan.

Maybe we're doomed: The 3rd Law of Thermodynamics. "Going nuk-a-ler" is only a way of staving off the disaster of energy-depletion.

But -- wait!! I get all that, but when it really gets down to the simplest myopic priorities -- it's the monthly electric bill. Oh, but I forgot to incorporate net-present-values of opportunities-lost by buying the new fridge. Another type of myopia.

We're still doomed, I say, doomed . . .

Also, King-Fatty and ShintaiDK also help with their observations. I now remember, though. I didn't really pay attention to the yellow-sticker on the new fridge until after it arrived. I DID guess that it would provide energy-savings before we bought it, but that's like hoping for bull-trout before you go fishing.

It really boiled down to keeping food cold with space to spare in that broken old piece-a-s***. I'll need to space for frozen bull-trout whether I catch 'em or buy 'em at COSTCO.

But it's still true: your air-conditioner, your refrigerator, washer, drier, light-bulbs . . . then old TVs. If the computers sleep a lot, well . . .

 

[sm625]

But how many barrels of oil were burned in the process of mining the ores, refining the metals, fabricating the electronics, and delivering the finished product to your home versus the barrels of oil that would have been burned had you elected to keep your 30yr old fridge until it was a 40yr old fridge?

That's exactly how I like to frame all my energy/resource type discussions.

Did you know this huge pit only generates about 1 metric ton of gold per month? In a few decades they will be digging giant holes like that, driving massive gas guzzling trucks around miles of snaking paths, just to mine a few bars. It's the same for all ores. We will never run out, but damn we are sure going to dig some deep, expensive holes in the process of never running out. And eventually those ores will only be accessible to the top 1%, and then the top 0.1%... and all the while there will be people claiming we will never run out...

 

[BonzaiDuck]

That's exactly how I like to frame all my energy/resource type discussions.
. . . [pic]
Did you know this huge pit only generates about 1 metric ton of gold per month? In a few decades they will be digging giant holes like that, driving massive gas guzzling trucks around miles of snaking paths, just to mine a few bars. It's the same for all ores. We will never run out, but damn we are sure going to dig some deep, expensive holes in the process of never running out. And eventually those ores will only be accessible to the top 1%, and then the top 0.1%... and all the while there will be people claiming we will never run out...

That looks like the copper mine at Ajo, AZ. When I visited there, it looked like an A-Ho, too. It's just north of Organ Pipe and Cabeza Prieta. I suppose, when there's a Sonoran Desert Bloom, it helps prepare visitors so they wouldn't be disappointed by anything. But with the drug smuggling and human trafficking, you're still at risk now: When we were there, the reservation police on the Ho-Ho-Oddam reservation wouldn't let us in. One of there cops had been shot to death and found in his truck.

I vaguely remember talking to a local about the mine and the price of copper. The price was highest when ITT was passing money to the Nixon plumbers to influence Allende's government in Chile, per the Kennecott Copper mine there. You all know the rest of the story -- from Watergate to the 1976 Letelier-Moffit bombing. Or you can go to "Politics" to discuss it.

It was still a few years before Intel's silicon technology took hold and offered some promise. I walked away chuckling when I discovered the computer offerings at Radio Shack in the late '70s. "This can't be serious!" I thought.

 

[Ranulf]

I will say this, those under-$100 combos for the G3258 and mobo are killer deals.

Everyone should buy one to upgrade their 775 rigs.

Yeah, yeah. Don't tempt me. Benefit of those 775 rigs is I have plenty of spare ddr2 vs ddr3.

 

[DominionSeraph]

But how many barrels of oil were burned in the process of mining the ores, refining the metals, fabricating the electronics, and delivering the finished product to your home versus the barrels of oil that would have been burned had you elected to keep your 30yr old fridge until it was a 40yr old fridge?

This is the conundrum of the modern day "green" industry. It is only "green" if you drastically narrow down the window for which you define "environmental impact". But it loses out in a cradle-to-grave perspective nearly every time.

The energy that went into it cannot be more than the purchase price.
Stop reading conservatard nonsense.

 

[pw257008]

The energy that went into it cannot be more than the purchase price.
Stop reading conservatard nonsense.

Energy prices differ across regions, so if it's manufactured in a low energy cost area and shipped to a consumer in a high energy cost area, we must also take that into account. And that's not even including environmental damage that no one is held financially responsible for. So the picture is not so clear cut when accounting for price differences and externalities. But yeah, externalities are conservatard nonsense, sure.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Damn...I'm old enough to get every single one of your puns and points What the hell! I use to be young, honest!

Seriously though you make intriguing points. What is interesting about the "green" concept is that what gets lost in the communication is "cradle to grave" environmental impact.

Sure your new fridge lower your power bill whilst simultaneously creating, and crushing, ice cubes on demand.

But how many barrels of oil were burned in the process of mining the ores, refining the metals, fabricating the electronics, and delivering the finished product to your home versus the barrels of oil that would have been burned had you elected to keep your 30yr old fridge until it was a 40yr old fridge?

This is the conundrum of the modern day "green" industry. It is only "green" if you drastically narrow down the window for which you define "environmental impact". But it loses out in a cradle-to-grave perspective nearly every time.

I've heard in the past that hybrid cars are actually pretty bad for the environment, even compared to traditional internal combustion-only cars, when you look at it from creation to disposal/recycling of the vehicle. That was earlier on, when hybrids were newer, but I wouldn't be surprised if even today the environmental cost of hybrid cars is actually still quite high.

 

[Blue_Max]

but I wouldn't be surprised if even today the environmental cost of hybrid cars is actually still quite high.

It's those freakin' toxic batteries. If we had battery technology not made of pure poison we'd be in good shape. :|

 

[Revolution 11]

Larry, you are far better off increasing the AC temperature and getting some cheap LED bulbs. Shintai has a point in checking the fridge, old ones which can heat entire apartments very effectively. Your fridge may also be colder than needed, it is worth checking the temperature of each shelf. If the door seals are worn, you will leak hot air into the fridge.

Check the insulation of the windows and door. If they are really warm or cold to the touch, too much heat is being transferred through these openings. Also, check for wall sections which are damp in winter, a lack of insulation can cause interior condensation. A big health problem with the resulting mold, as well as inflating your energy usage.

The computer is the last of your problems. Old receivers and set-top boxes consume ridiculous amounts of power and never "idle".

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, I made a decision. I picked up two of these (Tax free weekend in my state):

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/asus-15-...&skuId=7288011

Sucks that the RAM and battery aren't removable, but it was only $229.99, and it includes a DVD-RW drive, which is getting rarer these days, especially among budget laptops.

Celeron N2830, 4GB, 500GB. Hopefully, they won't be too slow for Skype.

Planning on possibly setting them up with wireless keyboard / mouse, and keeping the lid closed, and outputting over the HDMI to my Westinghouse 24" HDTVs.

I guess I kind of figured that for the same price as a VivoPC, I could get a complete laptop. (Granted, the VivoPC has a 1007U in it, and these are N2830.)

Edit: Seems adequate performance for surfing this forum.

Edit: Skype performance isn't too bad either. Uses roughly 50-55% CPU time @ 2.00 Ghz.

Edit: Now I'm thinking that I perhaps should have gone for the 1007U-based VivoPCs. I finally hooked one of these laptops up to my 24" HDTV / monitor, and it works alright, although slightly laggy. The problem is Skype calls. The webcam is, of course, front and center up on top of the screen lid, and in order to see the 24" screen, I have the screen lid closed, and the laptop outputting only over the HDMI port. So I have to open the lid, change the display setting (Winkey+P), and then use the laptop screen for the Skype call. Screwing up my window arrangement on my 1080P desktop on the 24" screen. Oh well. What a PITA. I didn't think this through, I guess. I could get an additional webcam, or I could ditch the separate 1080P screen, and just use the 15.6" 1366x768 laptop screen. But the laptop only has two USB ports, so I would need to get a USB hub as well as a webcam.

Well, in light of the fact that you can now purchase a full Windows 8.1 w/Bing 32-bit 7" tablet for $59.99 + tax at MC, that has USB2.0 input, and micro-HDMI output, and takes microSDHC cards too, up to 32 or 64GB, I'm re-evaluating my needs.

In fact, yesterday, I purchased several of these units. My plan is to use them to replace both the Q9300 @ 3.0 desktops (which now have low-power - 25W - GT630 Kepler 384SP video cards), and the Pentium Bay Trail N2830 dual-core laptops. I've barely used the laptops (really only one of them, haven't powered the other one up since setting it up, should probably charge it up). I'm currently using the Q9300 @ 3.0 rigs for distributed-computing, there are like 4 races around this month and next. (I'm heating my apt, largely via my computers crunching on both CPU and GPU.)

I've been on a slight tablet kick lately, after getting an HP Stream 7 (my first tablet!), and it's great. Only, it doesn't have HDMI out, or an additional USB in, aside from the charging / sync port.

The Microcenter WinBook TW700 fixes that, and it's cheaper to boot.

I've been using mine for a day, and it's pretty comparable to the Stream 7. It did crash once though, screen was blank, but backlight was glowing, and I couldn't wake it up, so I had to force power-off.

I plan on getting some micro-HDMI to HDMI adapter cables:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JDRHQ58

And a USB2.0 hub with a 2.1A charge-only port on it for power for the tablet:
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/NewerTech/USB2HB7PRO/

I will plug in a USB wireless keyboard + mouse dongle, possibly an AC1200 wireless dongle (if I don't use the in-built wifi, which I think is only 2.4Ghz), and possibly an external HDD.

My HTPC will likewise be one of these tablets, with the addition of a MagicJack and an IR USB remote control.

Performance of Firefox and Skype on the 1.33Ghz Atom quad-core is adequate, at least on the 1280x800 screen. Unsure how much more laggy it will be on a 1920x1080 external screen. (My N2830 laptop is slightly slower on the 1920x1080 24" HDTV screen over HDMI than the built-in 1366x768 screen.)

 

[2is]

A $60 tablet? Good luck with that one. I have a feeling this thread isn't anywhere near over and you'll be tossing those in a landfill and buying new inadequate hardware to replace your old inadequate hardware within a short period of time.

 

[soccerballtux]

all this green hardware fuss and no talk of green software

 

[SPBHM]

correct me if I'm wrong, but this tablet only have 1GB of ram... that's going to limit things more than the slow CPU...

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I've been on a slight tablet kick lately, after getting an HP Stream 7 (my first tablet!), and it's great. Only, it doesn't have HDMI out, or an additional USB in, aside from the charging / sync port.

You actually got one of those? How usable for basic stuff would you say it is? I've been playing with the thought of getting one to play around with, they're dirt cheap here.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You actually got one of those? How usable for basic stuff would you say it is? I've been playing with the thought of getting one to play around with, they're dirt cheap here.

Definitely worthwhile. Though I'm starting to prefer the Android experience just because it was designed from the ground up for touch. I mostly use the desktop mode on Win8.1, and Skype for Windows Desktop has a broken UI on Win8.1 tablets.

 

[VirtualLarry]

all this green hardware fuss and no talk of green software

I'm curious, is there such a thing, given things like race to idle, wouldn't the most performance efficient software also be the most power-efficient.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Definitely worthwhile. Though I'm starting to prefer the Android experience just because it was designed from the ground up for touch. I mostly use the desktop mode on Win8.1, and Skype for Windows Desktop has a broken UI on Win8.1 tablets.

Since I just need a basic tertiary (or perhaps even quadiary (is that even a word? :hmm) PC running windows, preferably as cheap and portable as possible, I might just advance those plans a bit. Thank you.

This thing only costs 250DKK more then a windows licence after all. You don't get much hardware for 250DKK ($41 US). Maybe a Celeron/AM1 Athlon or a 4GB stick of RAM if you're lucky...

 

[piasabird]

My tablet has a quad core processor. It definitely does not have windows. It slows down once in a while but I can use it to watch streaming video on Hulu.