Getting paid more for skilled labor?

[tcsenter]

Combine this with the fact that lots of people have been laid off and the market is just too competitive. A few years ago there were a lot of jobs so a lot of people got into IT. There are by far less IT jobs currently filled now, and yet either because of new grads still trying to enter IT or older veterans out of work, plus those still working, there are way more people than before. Less jobs plus more people = hard to find a job.

And let us remember, folks, what may have been true of the IT field a few years ago was the result of the speculative "tech boom" in the stock market, which turned out to be only slightly more than an overzealous and greed driven bull market whose performance far outstripped what the balance sheets of the tech industry could possibly support.

Using the state of the tech/IT field circa 1998 as some 'basis' of comparison is about as unrealistic and foolish as hoping to see another day where a 5 year-old tech company which has never made a profit is trading 100 days after their IPO at three times the price of Intel and Microsoft.

Those "glory" days were great...about as great as they were short. The days of the $85,000 sysadmin straight of out some vocational school are over.

 

[tcsenter]

I admit, while I was 'slaving' away in the medical field for what seemed like peanuts, I was very envious of the IT field and kept thinking "I'm in the wrong business" every time I read yet another article about some high school graduate making $60,000 plus options and driving a BMW for a company car. Alas, if it sounds too good to be true...

The tech industry promised to be the next 'industrial/manufacturing' boom of the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's, where everyone had a job, and a good paying job, with few exceptions. People relished in the idea that they could literally "fall" into such high paying positions of traditionally little responsibility, plus get stock options, company cars, great 401Ks, very favorable work environments where your employer was willing to jump through your hoops to make you happy, wet bars and strippers during lunch break, YIPPEE we're all getting rich!

I know that many of my fellow Gen-Xers were thinking "Haha! My parents had to work their fingers to the bone for 45 years before they could retire, and at this rate, I'll be able to retire in 20 years working half as hard and slacking off where ever possible to boot! Suckers!"

Who's the sucker now? heh

A big problem is that many young people who graduated after 1990 or so have never known the concept of 'conservatism' and 'moderation' and 'frugality' and 'savings' and 'living within your means' and they certainly don't know the meaning of 'hard work'. They didn't work in high school, or worked only a little, their parents footing the bill for everything, went to college but not at their expense, their only great dilemma was how much time to spend partying vs. studying, and fell into a high paying position with unprecedented ease.

Now they have to work for a living like all those other 'suckers' and many won't be able to hack it, they don't have "the stuff" their parent's and grandparent's had. When you go from sysadmin to Taco Bell, it's a tad disenchanting. Poor babies! Guess you should have been banking all that great money you were making instead of buying everything you could get your grubby fingers on?

Tough lessons are...well...tough.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: tcsenter
I admit, while I was 'slaving' away in the medical field for what seemed like peanuts, I was very envious of the IT field and kept thinking "I'm in the wrong business" every time I read yet another article about some high school graduate making $60,000 plus options and driving a BMW for a company car. Alas, if it sounds too good to be true...

The tech industry promised to be the next 'industrial/manufacturing' boom of the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's, where everyone had a job, and a good paying job, with few exceptions. People relished in the idea that they could literally "fall" into such high paying positions of traditionally little responsibility, plus get stock options, company cars, great 401Ks, very favorable work environments where your employer was willing to jump through your hoops to make you happy, wet bars and strippers during lunch break, YIPPEE we're all getting rich!

I know that many of my fellow Gen-Xers were thinking "Haha! My parents had to work their fingers to the bone for 45 years before they could retire, and at this rate, I'll be able to retire in 20 years working half as hard and slacking off where ever possible to boot! Suckers!"

Who's the sucker now? heh

A big problem is that many young people who graduated after 1990 or so have never known the concept of 'conservatism' and 'moderation' and 'frugality' and 'savings' and 'living within your means' and they certainly don't know the meaning of 'hard work'. They didn't work in high school, or worked only a little, their parents footing the bill for everything, went to college but not at their expense, their only great dilemma was how much time to spend partying vs. studying, and fell into a high paying position with unprecedented ease.

Now they have to work for a living like all those other 'suckers' and many won't be able to hack it, they don't have "the stuff" their parent's and grandparent's had. When you go from sysadmin to Taco Bell, it's a tad disenchanting. Poor babies! Guess you should have been banking all that great money you were making instead of buying everything you could get your grubby fingers on?

Tough lessons are...well...tough.

You sound like an old fart, but you're also very right. :Q I used IT as a last resort. What else was I going to do with a psych degree? My older brother did the same. Even at the time I realized that it seemed too good to be true and would not happen forever, but I had no real other choice at the time. I'm glad I did it, but I also spent 6 months unemployed last year as the market got so quickly flooded and it gave me a lot of time to grow up and learn some tough lessons. I never had a feeling of entitlement to $60k and a bmw out of school, but it was hard not to get caught up in things. Oh well it's all a learning experience, and what I didn't have and now do I appreciate more than I otherwise would have. Unemployment is good for the spirit (once you cure it of course).

 

[wjones]

underpaid or not, it depends on your location. I'm don't know much about Alaska (never heard of your town ) so I don't know if you are underpaid.

In bay area (San Jose, CA), $15/hour (which is about $30k/year) is definitely underpay. But again, now bay area flood with unemployed IT people, they'll take low paid job for rent/house mortgage until the market turns better.

 

[ebaycj]

Originally posted by: rh71
SideDiscussion:

What's the primary reason causing the overflow of IT people ?

1) too many dumped back into the pool because of layoffs.
2) too many students getting into "computers" because they hear it's fun/easy/out of hobby.

Curious to know... because the recession causes people not to hire, but why do we only hear about the abundance of IT'ers and not anyone else ?

Hmm, maybe because we're discussing this on a computer-related internet-based forums site, a site which most internet users (i'd say high 90's percentage-wise, think of all the AOL users and major OEM computer buyers) either: (A) wouldn't be able to find, or (B) would find very boring / worthless even if they did happen upon it. It stands to reason that there would be a (MUCH) larger concentration of people who work in the computer field here on AT:F, simply because they love what they do, and this site is about computers. Not everyone is a computer hardware nut, ya know .

ebaycj

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: ebaycj

Originally posted by: rh71
SideDiscussion:

What's the primary reason causing the overflow of IT people ?

1) too many dumped back into the pool because of layoffs.
2) too many students getting into "computers" because they hear it's fun/easy/out of hobby.

Curious to know... because the recession causes people not to hire, but why do we only hear about the abundance of IT'ers and not anyone else ?

Hmm, maybe because we're discussing this on a computer-related internet-based forums site, a site which most internet users (i'd say high 90's percentage-wise, think of all the AOL users and major OEM computer buyers) either: (A) wouldn't be able to find, or (B) would find very boring / worthless even if they did happen upon it. It stands to reason that there would be a (MUCH) larger concentration of people who work in the computer field here on AT:F, simply because they love what they do, and this site is about computers. Not everyone is a computer hardware nut, ya know .

ebaycj

No, I didn't mean "hear about the abundance of IT'ers" on AT... I meant anywhere... I hear that everywhere. It seems IT people are the only ones in search of jobs with no luck as a direct result of our recession/economy.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: tcsenter
A big problem is that many young people who graduated after 1990 or so have never known the concept of 'conservatism' and 'moderation' and 'frugality' and 'savings' and 'living within your means' and they certainly don't know the meaning of 'hard work'. They didn't work in high school, or worked only a little, their parents footing the bill for everything, went to college but not at their expense, their only great dilemma was how much time to spend partying vs. studying, and fell into a high paying position with unprecedented ease.

Now they have to work for a living like all those other 'suckers' and many won't be able to hack it, they don't have "the stuff" their parent's and grandparent's had. When you go from sysadmin to Taco Bell, it's a tad disenchanting. Poor babies! Guess you should have been banking all that great money you were making instead of buying everything you could get your grubby fingers on?

Tough lessons are...well...tough.

LOL... people graduating after 1990 are young ? I graduated HS in '95 (college in '99) and I hardly consider myself (or my friends of the same age) young (or think like it). We were "kids" who knew exactly what "living within your means" meant - and still do. Hell, I worked 7 days a week when I was in HS to pay for my car. My parents paid for most of my college education, but guess what I'm doing with the money I'm earning now?... paying them back. Many of the people I know did not have parents who could even support their college tuition - they are still paying off their own loans. Your generalizations make our entire generation seem spoon-fed. While true more often by today's standards, this is not sufficient reason to make such an assumption across all of America. Even the parents of today are more able to provide for their kids, whether asked to or not.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Exactly! I have worked in IT for the last 5 years. I quit applying for jobs after several months of "We already have 150 applicants for those 4 positions..." I am now back in school working finishing my degree *sigh*. I even went as far as to incorporate and start my own company in IT (the basic networking, upgrades, builds, training, etc...) but realized the whole IT market is depressed. So, with 5 years, many certifications and college credit later, I am seriously considering leaving the IT field. IT's way too flooded now and I don't see it thinning out until the economy recovers, then add at least 6 months to a year. I cannot wait 1-2 years for a job, so I have to do what I have to do for now.

For your position, if you love your job then I would take what I could get. It is unlikely that you will find another position because of the supply of IT workers. You could ride it out and leave when the economy gets better. Or you could do what thousands have done before you and work on another career or go back to school.

That's the sad truth. If you have a job in IT respect it, but it can never hurt to ask for a raise. It's gonna be a couple years before IT settles down I think as well. Some dreamers say "It's picking up now", but that's bullsh*t spouted by people who haven't just capped off a 6 month term of unemployment or watched their friends get laid off. It's not picking up now, and it won't be for a long time.

Skoorb, it is getting better. The reason I say it is getting better, is because it is not getting worse. Stock market is looking like postive earnings are coming back in fashion .


And this is coming from someone who was out of a couple tech jobs last year.

 

[lowtech1]

As one of the pervious member has mention that wages depend on the law of supply & demand.

You can look for another job & if you believe that you should be pay higher for what you are getting. You can give your current employer a chance to match the offer if you like him/her, your coworkers & job, and you can leave with good conscience if he couldn?t come up with an offer that is close to what you are being offer.

 

[tcsenter]

Your generalizations make our entire generation seem spoon-fed. While true more often by today's standards, this is not sufficient reason to make such an assumption across all of America. Even the parents of today are more able to provide for their kids, whether asked to or not.

Its a good thing that you are reimbursing your parents for their contribution to your education, because you seem to have failed some critical areas of your academics; reading comprehension, namely. They deserve a refund.

You will notice that I made no 'generalizations' or 'assumptions across all of America'. I deliberately chose the phraseology "many young people", as opposed to "most", or "the majority", or "all". Guess what that means? Oh yeah, I forgot, you failed that part of college, so I'll have to spell it out for you.

It means I get to define "many", not you, and by any objective and reasonable standard, "many" does not mean "all", precluding the interpretation that I was making a 'generalization' or 'assumption across all America'.

This remedial lesson was provided free of charge, you're welcome.

 

[fluxquantum]

not to be disrespectful or anything but you are lucky to even have a job. i got laid off not too long ago and it's a bitch trying to find work. i happen to be a civil engineer that designed communications towers.

 

[hans007]

Originally posted by: Jugernot
I'm currently in a disagreement with my girlfriend about my working life. She says that since I didn't work my way through high school at minimum wage jobs, paying my own rent (she moved out when she was 15) that I shouldn't be complaining about my wage at my current job. I get paid $15 an hour plus insurance (which is crap insurance) for being a system admini supporting 24 users and 13 servers (5 Linux / 8 Win NT & 2K). I am on call pretty much 24/7 and am the only support person at the company.

I'm going to talk to my boss this week about getting a raise....

My first "real" job was as a computer tutor that started at $7.75 an hour... this was when I was 19 years old (around two years ago).

Anyway, as some of you might remember I worked at a company as the assistant network manager for a few months, then it went out of the biz. I then got transfered to it's sister company and was "promoted" (without them actually saying promoted) as the Network Manager. No increase in pay, only a lot more responsiblity. In any case, right before my previous job went out of the biz, I asked for a raise and this is what my boss told me "We just don't have the money right now. I think $15 an hour is pretty good for what you do.... hell, my husband doesn't even make $15 an hour and he's 52 years old!"

To me this is comparing apples to oranges, I have skills in the IT field. Her husband sells Snow machines (Snow Mobiles to the rest of you) for a living. Unskilled versus skilled labor... that doesn't compare.

Anyway, just because I didn't work minimum wage jobs all through high school (I ran my own computer business for the last years of HS), I think that I should be able to complain about being taken advantage of by my work.

What do you guys think?

shes just jealous that you are smarter. i dunno i've never worked a retail job EVER.


i've fixed computers, hawked stuff on ebay, worked at a factory and now i'm a really lame server backup guy. but if someone says i dont earn my money, which is basically what she's saying, like you have to pay your dues even if you are talented, dont even think about it. go ask for the raise. she should be encouraging you to get the raise, i mean its better for you isnt it if you make more money?

 

[wyvrn]

That doesn't suit me at all. If you look at my portfolio, I bet it's nicer than your's I got interested in IT because it was fun and challenging, and there were jobs available. I never made a lot of money and never spent a lot either. By the time I had developed my skills through experience to be able to land a nice job, the bottom had fallen out of the market. So I am able to go back to school because of my frugality without having to also work 40 hours a week at the same time. This is after growing up in a single parent household and I had zero help putting myself through college. I paid every single bill for the last 10 years by myself.

I frequently see you post negative comments about people in the IT industry who are having a tough time now. Why are you so bitter towards us?

Originally posted by: tcsenter
I admit, while I was 'slaving' away in the medical field for what seemed like peanuts, I was very envious of the IT field and kept thinking "I'm in the wrong business" every time I read yet another article about some high school graduate making $60,000 plus options and driving a BMW for a company car. Alas, if it sounds too good to be true...

The tech industry promised to be the next 'industrial/manufacturing' boom of the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's, where everyone had a job, and a good paying job, with few exceptions. People relished in the idea that they could literally "fall" into such high paying positions of traditionally little responsibility, plus get stock options, company cars, great 401Ks, very favorable work environments where your employer was willing to jump through your hoops to make you happy, wet bars and strippers during lunch break, YIPPEE we're all getting rich!

I know that many of my fellow Gen-Xers were thinking "Haha! My parents had to work their fingers to the bone for 45 years before they could retire, and at this rate, I'll be able to retire in 20 years working half as hard and slacking off where ever possible to boot! Suckers!"

Who's the sucker now? heh

A big problem is that many young people who graduated after 1990 or so have never known the concept of 'conservatism' and 'moderation' and 'frugality' and 'savings' and 'living within your means' and they certainly don't know the meaning of 'hard work'. They didn't work in high school, or worked only a little, their parents footing the bill for everything, went to college but not at their expense, their only great dilemma was how much time to spend partying vs. studying, and fell into a high paying position with unprecedented ease.

Now they have to work for a living like all those other 'suckers' and many won't be able to hack it, they don't have "the stuff" their parent's and grandparent's had. When you go from sysadmin to Taco Bell, it's a tad disenchanting. Poor babies! Guess you should have been banking all that great money you were making instead of buying everything you could get your grubby fingers on?

Tough lessons are...well...tough.

 

[tcsenter]

I frequently see you post negative comments about people in the IT industry who are having a tough time now. Why are you so bitter towards us?

Do you even know what you're talking about?

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Your generalizations make our entire generation seem spoon-fed. While true more often by today's standards, this is not sufficient reason to make such an assumption across all of America. Even the parents of today are more able to provide for their kids, whether asked to or not.

Its a good thing that you are reimbursing your parents for their contribution to your education, because you seem to have failed some critical areas of your academics; reading comprehension, namely. They deserve a refund.

You will notice that I made no 'generalizations' or 'assumptions across all of America'. I deliberately chose the phraseology "many young people", as opposed to "most", or "the majority", or "all". Guess what that means? Oh yeah, I forgot, you failed that part of college, so I'll have to spell it out for you.

It means I get to define "many", not you, and by any objective and reasonable standard, "many" does not mean "all", precluding the interpretation that I was making a 'generalization' or 'assumption across all America'.

This remedial lesson was provided free of charge, you're welcome.

Wow so your original point was that SOME people do things that way. Thanks for stating the obvious.

 

[wyvrn]

Yes I do. I made an observation based on what I have seen. I also know that your typical tactic now is going to be to discredit me or drag me into a flame war, neither of which will work.

Again, I ask you, why are you so apparently bitter towards IT people?

edit: Actually the more I think about it, your posts regarding IT that I remember just seemed negative. You might not have a specific view on IT workers, but just ragging on an industry that was over-inflated. Either way it doesn't help things for those of us trying to get by that didn't drive BMW's and make 6 figures. Not everyone in the IT industry became rich, you know.

Originally posted by: tcsenter

I frequently see you post negative comments about people in the IT industry who are having a tough time now. Why are you so bitter towards us?

Do you even know what you're talking about?

 

[tcsenter]

Wow so your original point was that SOME people do things that way. Thanks for stating the obvious.

Well my words were "many young people", not "some". Are you blind, run out of Prozac, or something? This isn't all that difficult, I've had one person say I was essentially correct, despite sounding like an old fart. What's your problem (besides the obvious of not knowing how to read)?

Yes I do. I made an observation based on what I have seen. I also know that your typical tactic now is going to be to discredit me or drag me into a flame war, neither of which will work.

No, I'll allow you just enough rope to hang yourself, THAT is my typical tactic.

You asserted that I frequently make disparaging remarks about IT people. When you can back up your assertion with evidence, I'll respond to your question. Until then, you haven't made your case, except for an unsubstantiated claim.

Again, do you have a clue what you're talking about?

 

[wyvrn]

Read my edit. I am not hanging myself either. I don't make a comment unless it's based on fact.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Wow so your original point was that SOME people do things that way. Thanks for stating the obvious.

Well my words were "many young people", not "some". Are you blind, run out of Prozac, or something? This isn't all that difficult, I've had one person say I was essentially correct, despite sounding like an old fart. What's your problem (besides the obvious of not knowing how to read)?

So you're now on the defensive and choose to put people down instead of saying something useful. Again, what you said about "many young people" is the same as not saying anything at all. Don't flatter yourself with your big words and drawn-out paragraphs. We're not 14 years old, really. When and if you decide to make a worthy point, I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if that's the case.

 

[tcsenter]

So you're now on the defensive and choose to put people down instead of saying something useful. Again, what you said about "many young people" is the same as not saying anything at all.

Just trying to encourage a little firing of those neurons you have up there. Admittedly, I seem to have failed in that attempt. Oh well.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

So you're now on the defensive and choose to put people down instead of saying something useful. Again, what you said about "many young people" is the same as not saying anything at all.

Just trying to encourage a little firing of those neurons you have up there. Admittedly, I seem to have failed in that attempt. Oh well.

LOL. You're a piece of work.