Originally posted by: Skoorb
No doubt about it - that seems underpaid - but if he's still working there and has not demanded a raise with threatening quiting then he is not underpaid because he's still doing it. WHy doesn't he leave? Perhaps because he knows he can't get another job elsewhere; because of this in the _current market_ perhaps he is not underpaid afterall?
Still, a person can complain all they want regardless of previous employment history
I'm thinking along the same idea. Go one step farther, no matter what you are getting paid be it 20k or 150k, if your employer is willing to pay you x amount you are not overpaid if that is what he/she fills that you are worth. The possibility exists that you could be underpaid, if thats the case its up to you to do something about it.
One bit of advice - don't walk in there and demand a raise or "I will go somewhere else". They just might tell you to go over there. It could be a good bargaining tool if you actually have elsewhere to go.
Farmall
rh71
No Lifer
- Aug 28, 2001
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I used to be pissed... but now... I'm seriously just glad I still have a job here. I don't want to leave the company yet and I hardly want to go searching for a web job here in NY. It's rough out there.
Hardly anyone at this company got any raise last year... all I really ask for is some recognition for doing such things, but it doesn't look likely this year either.
CPA
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
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If he makes $15 and is expected to provide 24/7 coverage and he stays with the company then he is paid appropriately. If he leaves for more money, then he is underpaid.
I disagree with those of you who say that skill is a dominate factor in pay. It is not. What the company values the position at is the main factor. Another is current market trends. If they value the position at $15/hr then that's what the perceived value is. They just may not find the most skilled. And no, I am not contradicting myself. I am viewing this from the employer's perspective, not the employee's. The employer pays what they think the position is worth, regardless of skill. If they are not happy with the candidates, then they may reevaluate the position and increase it's value accoridingly. Skill is the secondary factor that may put pressure on the percieved value of the position.
rudder
Lifer
- Nov 9, 2000
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$80,000 per year for a sys admin? How much is the data worth that sits on the servers? How much money will be lost if trade secrets get hacked? How much money will be lost if the servers are down for an hour? If the servers manage a production line or an e-commerce site, a company could stand to lose quite a bit of money. So $80,000/year for a skilled IT person is a good investment depsite the fact that if they are real good and you don't notice them and don't seemingly offer anything to your bottom line.
If I owned a multi-million dollar a year business I would be sure I had some good IT people looking over the infrastructure of my business rather than finding the lowest bidder.
rh71
No Lifer
- Aug 28, 2001
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I agree to some point, but it's all about trends. The lowest bidder can be $40k/year and do the same job as long as he's motivated. But the going rate is higher than that, so people are willing to request that much as a salary. Look at baseball for example. What was the median MLB salary in 1994 (when Bobby Bonilla was the highest paid player) and what is the median MLB salary now ? All I'm saying is that the amount has skyrocketed ONLY because of trend, not because they DESERVE that much. Again, what they do on a daily basis is not worth anywhere near $80k/yr to anyone. The job could be worth $150k fifteen years from now... would you still say it's worth it since the data is worth it? Business-wise... good support is priceless, but do you honestly think such a position is worth that much doing what they do?
EDIT>> From the employer's point of view, I wouldn't use salary as a motivation driver for a person to do their job well. I'd use annual perks and bonuses for such. The best companies to work for do not provide high salaries (fortune.com), but rather, perks or annually company trips. Otherwise, salaries would get ridiculously out-of-whack after 5-10 years, don't cha think ?
Heh, I didn't realize I'd get so much response. Anyway. here is the complete story. I started working for this company (actually it's sister company) over a 1.5 years ago as an intern level 1 ($12 an hour) as a web developer. I did photoshop, Illustrator, and mostly html with Dreamweaver and Homesite. As I progressed along, I started doing some PHP work and I was promoted to a level 2 intern at $15 an hour. Soon, it became known to them that I did hardware/networking work and I was brought on a few hours a week to assist the system's people. After another year of being a "intern" the company asked me to stay on part time as a system's admin assistant and they'd give me insurance (which sucks as I said earlier). Soon after I talked to my boss and told her that I thought I was worth more than an "intern" as I had worked there long enough and knew all the systems. This is when she gave me the "We don't the money, my husband doesn't even make that much!" I said "Fine, but I expect a raise as soon as the company starts making money. She said "Ok."
Three weeks later, the company folded and I was asked to stay on at the sister company. This was completely new managers, bosses, etc. , but I did know them personally. I've been workinga t this company for about a month now.
We talked last week about our system and they are telling me "You are integral part of this plan Joe, you are welcome to work here as long as we can have you. We like your work and obviously your experience here is great!" The plain and simple truth is... they can't replace me at this point of time in the company. I have too much experience and they have NO ONE else to do it. We have talked about consolidating our servers from the current 13 to around 6, 2 linux / 4 Win NT & 2k.
So LOOOONNNNNGGGG story short, they wouldn't easily be able to replace me and I'm an integral part of the transition of the folded company's systems. The old system admin at the company was getting around $65k a year.... and I'm "basically" doing his job and my own. Though he is still coming in part time to help me with the transition between the two companies.
Jugs
btw: My girlfriend "technically" makes more than I do at the moment. She is getting $18 an hour at her current job as a web developer for the university here. She thinks I should get paid more, but says that I shouldn't complain about getting underpaid because I've never had to support myself totally as I'm a college student.
Three weeks later, the company folded and I was asked to stay on at the sister company. This was completely new managers, bosses, etc. , but I did know them personally. I've been workinga t this company for about a month now.
We talked last week about our system and they are telling me "You are integral part of this plan Joe, you are welcome to work here as long as we can have you. We like your work and obviously your experience here is great!" The plain and simple truth is... they can't replace me at this point of time in the company. I have too much experience and they have NO ONE else to do it. We have talked about consolidating our servers from the current 13 to around 6, 2 linux / 4 Win NT & 2k.
So LOOOONNNNNGGGG story short, they wouldn't easily be able to replace me and I'm an integral part of the transition of the folded company's systems. The old system admin at the company was getting around $65k a year.... and I'm "basically" doing his job and my own. Though he is still coming in part time to help me with the transition between the two companies.
Jugs
btw: My girlfriend "technically" makes more than I do at the moment. She is getting $18 an hour at her current job as a web developer for the university here. She thinks I should get paid more, but says that I shouldn't complain about getting underpaid because I've never had to support myself totally as I'm a college student.
CPA
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: rh71
I know that. I'm salaried and I wasn't complaining to anyone here.
I realize the exempt vs non-exempt part, I work in Payroll and Benefit Accounting at my company. I would assume most salaried employees are exempt, at least at my company they are.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
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Well then it's simple. You tell them that you want a significant pay raise. You make about $30k/year now. Tell them you're looking for "a very significant pay raise". Something that they can absorb without being blown out of the water, but remind them that your role is similiar to a guy making 65k/year, and although you don't ask for that much you know that you're worth more than you are being paid. Tell them you love working there but that your pay has become a major issue for you and that you need a raise (not "would like" or "would want"). If they ask say "into the 40's".
rh71
No Lifer
- Aug 28, 2001
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In my opinion, entry level (even though you do have intern experience) doing all that you do by yourself deserves $50k in NY for a top 10-15 company. Bare minimum, you should be making at least $35k with good benefits as an entry level. In this economy, I WOULD NOT complain if I'm making close to $35k.
ebaycj
Diamond Member
- Mar 9, 2002
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$15/hour * 2080 hours/year = $31,200.
not to be a prick, but i know first-year straight-out-of-college schoolteachers who get more than that.
$31,200 is NOTHING in the IT field. Hell, working as an INTERN after my freshman year in college, I STARTED at $15/hour, plus time and a half overtime. And that was just a summer internship. Not to mention $3.25 an hour raises each summer i returned.
Unless you are in a SEVERELY depressed area of the country, you should either get a raise (i personally wouldnt take anything less than $20-22 an hour, preferably $25), or get a new job with a pay increase. There are likely greener pastures that you're missing out on, especially if you have a couple years experience.
Get what you want or leave. Either way they will have to pay more for the same services, so you "win" in the end.
Hope everything works out.
ebaycj
not to be a prick, but i know first-year straight-out-of-college schoolteachers who get more than that.
$31,200 is NOTHING in the IT field. Hell, working as an INTERN after my freshman year in college, I STARTED at $15/hour, plus time and a half overtime. And that was just a summer internship. Not to mention $3.25 an hour raises each summer i returned.
Unless you are in a SEVERELY depressed area of the country, you should either get a raise (i personally wouldnt take anything less than $20-22 an hour, preferably $25), or get a new job with a pay increase. There are likely greener pastures that you're missing out on, especially if you have a couple years experience.
Get what you want or leave. Either way they will have to pay more for the same services, so you "win" in the end.
Hope everything works out.
ebaycj
Yeah, good plan, right in the middle of a painful recession, while thousands are still getting laid off on top of the hundreds of thousands already laid-off, ask your boss for a raise. Why don't you ask him for a company car while your at it? lmao!
What is special about your sysadmin skills that a lot of high school kids aren't qualified to do? I made not a whole lot more than $15 as a surgical first assistant and surgical technician; getting stuck by contaminated needles, getting splashed by blood and bodily fluids, facing lawsuits for any little mistake or even when no mistake was made, getting punched and insulted by drunks or delerious crazies, standing on my feet four to eight hours at a time without breaks, under hot surgical lamps, wearing hot and sweaty gowns, gloves, masks, and goggles that get fogged up and you can't do anything about it, or your nose running and you just have to snot all over the inside of your mask because its not like you can blow your nose in the middle of surgery, "Hey, Doc...I gotta take my finger out of that hole in the liver because I need to blow my nose."
Come do what I did for a couple days, you'll run back to your comfy air conditioned non-stressful sysadmin job and be happy with $15/hr.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
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Welcome to 3 years ago
The IT field now sucks. The "severely depressed area of the country" covers the entire country. There are lots of people with several years experience who can't get jobs in major cities. The economy is totally swamped with people in IT.Originally posted by: Skoorb[/iWelcome to 3 years ago
Exactly! I have worked in IT for the last 5 years. I quit applying for jobs after several months of "We already have 150 applicants for those 4 positions..." I am now back in school working finishing my degree *sigh*. I even went as far as to incorporate and start my own company in IT (the basic networking, upgrades, builds, training, etc...) but realized the whole IT market is depressed. So, with 5 years, many certifications and college credit later, I am seriously considering leaving the IT field. IT's way too flooded now and I don't see it thinning out until the economy recovers, then add at least 6 months to a year. I cannot wait 1-2 years for a job, so I have to do what I have to do for now.
For your position, if you love your job then I would take what I could get. It is unlikely that you will find another position because of the supply of IT workers. You could ride it out and leave when the economy gets better. Or you could do what thousands have done before you and work on another career or go back to school.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
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That's the sad truth. If you have a job in IT respect it, but it can never hurt to ask for a raise. It's gonna be a couple years before IT settles down I think as well. Some dreamers say "It's picking up now", but that's bullsh*t spouted by people who haven't just capped off a 6 month term of unemployment or watched their friends get laid off. It's not picking up now, and it won't be for a long time.
Hey, I did that for several years, and it was a great experience. I can't do it any longer due to a medical problem.
But everything is gravy compared to that job. I've worked a couple non-medical jobs since, and I get a big kick out of people getting all bent out of shape and stressed-out over trivial things..."OMG, they sent the wrong part numbers, we're supposed to have this in stock yesterday and now we'll be waiting another week!" I would be like, "Well, I guess they'll just have to wait then won't they?"
I'm accustomed to getting all stressed-out over things like we have three category one traumas in route and we can only accomodate two of them, and this guy almost has a emotional break-down over inventory. I just giggle.
rh71
No Lifer
- Aug 28, 2001
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SideDiscussion:
What's the primary reason causing the overflow of IT people ?
1) too many dumped back into the pool because of layoffs.
2) too many students getting into "computers" because they hear it's fun/easy/out of hobby.
Curious to know... because the recession causes people not to hire, but why do we only hear about the abundance of IT'ers and not anyone else ?
What's the primary reason causing the overflow of IT people ?
1) too many dumped back into the pool because of layoffs.
2) too many students getting into "computers" because they hear it's fun/easy/out of hobby.
Curious to know... because the recession causes people not to hire, but why do we only hear about the abundance of IT'ers and not anyone else ?
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
You got a dead on combination of the two. Apparently some "IT schools" are still cranking out new grads who never have a chance of getting a job in IT. For instance a friend of mine with his degree went to iti.com (an IT school) a year after me. I managed to get out just in time to get a job and I'm working now. He waited a year and when he got out the market was already dead. He's now spent 15 months looking for work. He'll never get a job in IT and yet he continues to look and drift through life in his parent's basement looking for new work. Then of course there are computer science grads that are still coming out and aggressively willing to work anywhere.
Combine this with the fact that lots of people have been laid off and the market is just too competitive. A few years ago there were a lot of jobs so a lot of people got into IT. There are by far less IT jobs currently filled now, and yet either because of new grads still trying to enter IT or older veterans out of work, plus those still working, there are way more people than before. Less jobs plus more people = hard to find a job. As time has gone on the last few bastions of IT in the US have dried up and there are now no longer any cities in the us that are rampantly hiring IT like there were 2-3 years ago. I mean hell I got out of school Jan of 2000 and it was VERY easy to find a job. Everyone in my class got one in the US making good money. Fast forward to now and although I have experience now if I was laid off I'd be up sh*t creek.
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