Getting paid more for skilled labor?

Jugernot

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,889
0
0
I'm currently in a disagreement with my girlfriend about my working life. She says that since I didn't work my way through high school at minimum wage jobs, paying my own rent (she moved out when she was 15) that I shouldn't be complaining about my wage at my current job. I get paid $15 an hour plus insurance (which is crap insurance) for being a system admini supporting 24 users and 13 servers (5 Linux / 8 Win NT & 2K). I am on call pretty much 24/7 and am the only support person at the company.

I'm going to talk to my boss this week about getting a raise....

My first "real" job was as a computer tutor that started at $7.75 an hour... this was when I was 19 years old (around two years ago).

Anyway, as some of you might remember I worked at a company as the assistant network manager for a few months, then it went out of the biz. I then got transfered to it's sister company and was "promoted" (without them actually saying promoted) as the Network Manager. No increase in pay, only a lot more responsiblity. In any case, right before my previous job went out of the biz, I asked for a raise and this is what my boss told me "We just don't have the money right now. I think $15 an hour is pretty good for what you do.... hell, my husband doesn't even make $15 an hour and he's 52 years old!"

To me this is comparing apples to oranges, I have skills in the IT field. Her husband sells Snow machines (Snow Mobiles to the rest of you) for a living. Unskilled versus skilled labor... that doesn't compare.

Anyway, just because I didn't work minimum wage jobs all through high school (I ran my own computer business for the last years of HS), I think that I should be able to complain about being taken advantage of by my work.

What do you guys think?
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
I see no reason why working minimum wage jobs gives a person a right to complain. To me it seems she is fairly upset that she worked minimum wage jobs while you made better money. If you have skills for you job you should get paid more. If you have no skills you work minimum wage.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,380
8,509
126
i don't know what your past work experience has to do with any of it...


if you can find a job that pays better for the same work then you're underpaid at the current one. if you can't, well, you might just be at the market wage.
 

AnyMal

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
15,780
0
76
I think it's time for a new girlfriend. Besides, I take it she has no epxertise in IT so how could she decide what constitutes a fair pay?
 

amnesiac

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
15,781
1
71
Originally posted by: AnyMal
I think it's time for a new girlfriend. Besides, I take it she has no epxertise in IT so how could she decide what constitutes a fair pay?

Ditto that. What a stupid thing to disagree on. Sounds like she's resentful of your pay scale which is not a good thing. Get a raise to spite her. :p

In any case, pay should be commensurate with education and skill required.
I.e. an average retail sales position should pay a lot less than an entry/mid level IT position just because anyone with half a functioning brain and minimal education can work in retail. Certain prerequisites and education are necessary for IT work. Same goes with anything that needs specific training.
 

gopunk

Lifer
Jul 7, 2001
29,239
2
0
Originally posted by: amnesiac 2.0
Originally posted by: AnyMal
I think it's time for a new girlfriend. Besides, I take it she has no epxertise in IT so how could she decide what constitutes a fair pay?

Ditto that. What a stupid thing to disagree on. Sounds like she's resentful of your pay scale which is not a good thing. Get a raise to spite her. :p

In any case, pay should be commensurate with education and skill required.
I.e. an average retail sales position should pay a lot less than an entry/mid level IT position just because anyone with half a functioning brain and minimal education can work in retail. Certain prerequisites and education are necessary for IT work. Same goes with anything that needs specific training.

that would be in a fair world... english phds would be rich :p

pay should depend on supply and demand, imo.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
There's plenty of Blue Collar jobs that will trump an IT job in pay. Good retail sale is something most IT people couldn't ever handle well.

 

BlamoHammer

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2002
2,259
0
0
Originally posted by: amnesiac 2.0
Originally posted by: AnyMal
I think it's time for a new girlfriend. Besides, I take it she has no epxertise in IT so how could she decide what constitutes a fair pay?

Ditto that. What a stupid thing to disagree on. Sounds like she's resentful of your pay scale which is not a good thing. Get a raise to spite her. :p

In any case, pay should be commensurate with education and skill required.
I.e. an average retail sales position should pay a lot less than an entry/mid level IT position just because anyone with half a functioning brain and minimal education can work in retail. Certain prerequisites and education are necessary for IT work. Same goes with anything that needs specific training.

I beg to differ. Aside from the fact that I work retail I believe that your statement about anyone with "half a functioning brain and minimal education can work in retail" is complete and utter crap. IT of course depends as to which part of retail you are working but for the most part those with the same type of qualities valued in other jobs excel. Education is of course not a requirement but if you think that just because you have a job that required a bit of schooling you should paid more I think you're crazy.

Look at real estate, no real schooling is required but you can make a boatload of cash if youre talented. Talent is harder to find than skill as you can take anyone with half a brain and train them to do a job.
 

BlamoHammer

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2002
2,259
0
0
Originally posted by: flavio
There's plenty of Blue Collar jobs that will trump an IT job in pay. Good retail sale is something most IT people couldn't ever handle well.

Damn straight. I've people come through my department who had IT backgrounds and they weren't worth a sh!t on my sales floor.
 

amnesiac

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
15,781
1
71
Originally posted by: PCH0
I beg to differ. Aside from the fact that I work retail I believe that your statement about anyone with "half a functioning brain and minimal education can work in retail" is complete and utter crap. IT of course depends as to which part of retail you are working but for the most part those with the same type of qualities valued in other jobs excel. Education is of course not a requirement but if you think that just because you have a job that required a bit of schooling you should paid more I think you're crazy.

Look at real estate, no real schooling is required but you can make a boatload of cash if youre talented. Talent is harder to find than skill as you can take anyone with half a brain and train them to do a job.

You do have a point; skill is a necessary factor in determining pay, but for the sake of example I was just comparing a baseline non-education-requiring job to an educated one. I wasn't trying to blanked the entire retail industry like that.
By "normal retail" I meant something like Best Buy, etc. where wage is hourly and not really "sales" per se. Sales with commissions require a totally different type of approach (i.e. some level of intelligence, tact, and skill).

However, I must disagree with you on your real estate statement. How familiar are you with the industry? To become truly effective in real estate tons of schooling and continuing education is required on several fronts. It's not something any average joe can pick up and expect to excel in.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
44,296
16
81
Originally posted by: PCH0
I wouldn't call sales an unskilled job. Anyone can do it but not everyone can do it well.

True. For those who can do it well, sales can make for a very well paying career. It's all about closing the deal. I used to work with a guy who could easily convince people to buy more expensive rims/tires "because they're more better" (direct quote), and it used to infuriate the hell out of me.
 

BlamoHammer

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2002
2,259
0
0
Originally posted by: amnesiac 2.0
Originally posted by: PCH0
I beg to differ. Aside from the fact that I work retail I believe that your statement about anyone with "half a functioning brain and minimal education can work in retail" is complete and utter crap. IT of course depends as to which part of retail you are working but for the most part those with the same type of qualities valued in other jobs excel. Education is of course not a requirement but if you think that just because you have a job that required a bit of schooling you should paid more I think you're crazy.

Look at real estate, no real schooling is required but you can make a boatload of cash if youre talented. Talent is harder to find than skill as you can take anyone with half a brain and train them to do a job.

You do have a point; skill is a necessary factor in determining pay, but for the sake of example I was just comparing a baseline non-education-requiring job to an educated one. I wasn't trying to blanked the entire retail industry like that.
By "normal retail" I meant something like Best Buy, etc. where wage is hourly and not really "sales" per se. Sales with commissions require a totally different type of approach (i.e. some level of intelligence, tact, and skill).

However, I must disagree with you on your real estate statement. How familiar are you with the industry? To become truly effective in real estate tons of schooling and continuing education is required on several fronts. It's not something any average joe can pick up and expect to excel in.

Just because it's pure hourly sales dont believe that all Best Buy salespeople are devoid of intelligence, tact, and skill. I'll be the first to agree that a huge amount of the people I've come across couldn't hit their ass with both hands. However their hasn't been a single salesperson that I've seen in a commission environment (Good Guys, Circuit City, Gateway County, Magnolia Hi-Fi) that any of the guys from my team couldnt hold their own against...myself included. Many a commish salesperson has come through our doors thinking they were going to blow everyone away and many a commish salesperson have walked away with their tails between their legs. There is somethign to be said for Best Buy if you have an iota of talent and drive...they dont give me $23 an hour for my good looks.

And I agree with your statement about real estate needing training and the like but most of their success comes from god given talent to sell people.
 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
12,436
1
0
I would start sending your resume out and find out what you are really worth.

Remember you are only worth what domeone is willing to pay you.
 

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,391
1,780
126
Originally posted by: tm37
I would start sending your resume out and find out what you are really worth.

Remember you are only worth what domeone is willing to pay you.
The job market is pretty crappy for us IT guys right now. It'd be hard to really tell what you're worth by going out there and applying a bunch of places. The truth is, job security right now is the #1 concern. IT people are generally extra overhead for companies since they only maintain systems and don't exactly build a product. (of course ecommerce would be an exception) Usually cutbacks are inevitable if you're in a competitive industry or a downsizing company. If you find a place that you feel secure, stay as long as you can. (within reason) ;)

 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Unfortunately it is the law of supply and demand. Your boss may be keen on the economy and knows there are a lot of unemployed tech people who would take that job in a heartbeat. Maybe thats why he pays crap wages. I am not sure about the company you work for, 24 users are easy to manage, but if the business relies on all 13 servers operating 100% then it should be worth more to them than $15 an hour. If the servers were to go down, how much revenue would the company lose per hour?

Do you have a college degree or any technical degree? In any case I think the job should be worth more than $15 an hour.

 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
"...pay should depend on supply and demand, imo." - gopunk

"...you are only worth what domeone is willing to pay you." - tm37

I agree with these guys in principle. Not sure how much a network admin is worth, but I do know of at least a couple trades around here that don't get paid what they're worth, IMO. One is machinists. I played that game for over 20 years, waiting for the dollars to catch up with skills. No kids coming into the field and old timers retiring left and right, yet no decent bucks were forthcoming. Not where I worked or other places in the area. Same for mechanics around here. Major skills involved there, but no big bucks to match.

While I agree with those statements, it just doesn't seem to pan out right. Seems the only way to get ahead is to be one of the "good ole' boys" and get placed in a cherry position or own your own business. I consider being a salesman a step in that direction. If your income depends heavily on commission, you'll be getting compensation for your skills fairly. It's close to being self employed. That's the other way to get ahead. Be your own boss. Nobody to blame but yourself, if you go broke.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
126
Experience/skill/environment = salary ... not just what the "going rate" is for a person of the same field at another company.

You have more leverage in asking for a raise if you are the lone person taking care of things, but you best be careful about asking at such a time when the economy isn't on your side... or your business'.

With that said, I think most IT people are overpaid anyway. I am a web developer for 3 years in NY and I make what I consider to be a good salary for what I do/know/gained from experience. Others in the same field who have 2-3 years more experience than me make at least $20k more than me - that's ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be paid more... what we do is a skilled job, but to get paid that much for something that takes so little effort (when we know what we're doing) is absurd. Also take into account that Sys Admins who sit on their a$$es most of the time (I know a few who admit it) and get paid upwards of $80k - THAT'S ridiculous. True, they've put their time in over the years, but what they do each day does not warrant that amount of money. Divide a salary to a per-hour basis. You'll understand what I mean.

Of course, putting everything into perspective, the pay scales of most jobs are a bit off. I'm not gonna go into specifics right now, but it's not just IT, although I see that to be one of the most off-balance. Yes, we are important to a business, but take our salaries and consider what we actually do each day.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Anyway, just because I didn't work minimum wage jobs all through high school (I ran my own computer business for the last years of HS), I think that I should be able to complain about being taken advantage of by my work.
Of course you don't have to have worked sh*t to gain the right to complain. The only jobs I had before I entered the work force were pathetically coushy ones that I got through my parents doing "research assistant" one summer and then a grossly overpayed secretary for my mother the next, so I may be biased, but I fail to see the connection between complaining and having had to of worked minimum wage jobs.

What if you have some guy who worked his nuts off all high school and university and never worked a real job in his life because he was wrapped up in school. His parents paid for his living expenses, and then out of school he gets his new job as a medical doctor but for some reason they pay him $25k/year. He can't complain just because he never flung sh*t and grease at Arbys? Come on!
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,207
2,471
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com
Originally posted by: rh71
Experience/skill/environment = salary ... not just what the "going rate" is for a person of the same field at another company.

You have more leverage in asking for a raise if you are the lone person taking care of things, but you best be careful about asking at such a time when the economy isn't on your side... or your business'.

With that said, I think most IT people are overpaid anyway. I am a web developer for 3 years in NY and I make what I consider to be a good salary for what I do/know/gained from experience. Others in the same field who have 2-3 years more experience than me make at least $20k more than me - that's ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be paid more... what we do is a skilled job, but to get paid that much for something that takes so little effort (when we know what we're doing) is absurd. Also take into account that Sys Admins who sit on their a$$es most of the time (I know a few who admit it) and get paid upwards of $80k - THAT'S ridiculous. True, they've put their time in over the years, but what they do each day does not warrant that amount of money. Divide a salary to a per-hour basis. You'll understand what I mean.

Of course, putting everything into perspective, the pay scales of most jobs are a bit off. I'm not gonna go into specifics right now, but it's not just IT, although I see that to be one of the most off-balance. Yes, we are important to a business, but take our salaries and consider what we actually do each day.


If he makes $15 an hour but is expected to provide 24/7 oncall coverage for free I think he's underpaid. My job can literally drive me nuts with phone calls.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
If he makes $15 an hour but is expected to provide 24/7 oncall coverage for free I think he's underpaid. My job can literally drive me nuts with phone calls.
No doubt about it - that seems underpaid - but if he's still working there and has not demanded a raise with threatening quiting then he is not underpaid because he's still doing it. WHy doesn't he leave? Perhaps because he knows he can't get another job elsewhere; because of this in the _current market_ perhaps he is not underpaid afterall?

Still, a person can complain all they want regardless of previous employment history :)
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,844
1,049
126
Originally posted by: baffled2
Originally posted by: rh71
Experience/skill/environment = salary ... not just what the "going rate" is for a person of the same field at another company.

You have more leverage in asking for a raise if you are the lone person taking care of things, but you best be careful about asking at such a time when the economy isn't on your side... or your business'.

With that said, I think most IT people are overpaid anyway. I am a web developer for 3 years in NY and I make what I consider to be a good salary for what I do/know/gained from experience. Others in the same field who have 2-3 years more experience than me make at least $20k more than me - that's ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be paid more... what we do is a skilled job, but to get paid that much for something that takes so little effort (when we know what we're doing) is absurd. Also take into account that Sys Admins who sit on their a$$es most of the time (I know a few who admit it) and get paid upwards of $80k - THAT'S ridiculous. True, they've put their time in over the years, but what they do each day does not warrant that amount of money. Divide a salary to a per-hour basis. You'll understand what I mean.

Of course, putting everything into perspective, the pay scales of most jobs are a bit off. I'm not gonna go into specifics right now, but it's not just IT, although I see that to be one of the most off-balance. Yes, we are important to a business, but take our salaries and consider what we actually do each day.


If he makes $15 an hour but is expected to provide 24/7 oncall coverage for free I think he's underpaid. My job can literally drive me nuts with phone calls.

I didn't say he's already getting his fair share... he should ask for a raise considering his position in the company. BTW, I'm on call 24/7 also. I got a pager the first day and said "oh $#!T" - it comes with the territory, and I'm not even a sys admin. I had to come in for 3 hours this past Sunday... and I get $0 OT. I don't think he mentioned he does OT for free...
 

Geekbabe

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 16, 1999
32,207
2,471
126
www.theshoppinqueen.com
Originally posted by: rh71
Originally posted by: baffled2
Originally posted by: rh71
Experience/skill/environment = salary ... not just what the "going rate" is for a person of the same field at another company.

You have more leverage in asking for a raise if you are the lone person taking care of things, but you best be careful about asking at such a time when the economy isn't on your side... or your business'.

With that said, I think most IT people are overpaid anyway. I am a web developer for 3 years in NY and I make what I consider to be a good salary for what I do/know/gained from experience. Others in the same field who have 2-3 years more experience than me make at least $20k more than me - that's ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be paid more... what we do is a skilled job, but to get paid that much for something that takes so little effort (when we know what we're doing) is absurd. Also take into account that Sys Admins who sit on their a$$es most of the time (I know a few who admit it) and get paid upwards of $80k - THAT'S ridiculous. True, they've put their time in over the years, but what they do each day does not warrant that amount of money. Divide a salary to a per-hour basis. You'll understand what I mean.

Of course, putting everything into perspective, the pay scales of most jobs are a bit off. I'm not gonna go into specifics right now, but it's not just IT, although I see that to be one of the most off-balance. Yes, we are important to a business, but take our salaries and consider what we actually do each day.


If he makes $15 an hour but is expected to provide 24/7 oncall coverage for free I think he's underpaid. My job can literally drive me nuts with phone calls.

I didn't say he's already getting his fair share... he should ask for a raise considering his position in the company. BTW, I'm on call 24/7 also. I got a pager the first day and said "oh $#!T" - it comes with the territory, and I'm not even a sys admin. I had to come in for 3 hours this past Sunday... and I get $0 OT.


I'm on an electronic leash or two myself but I'm an hourly employee,and there's no such thing as "No OT" :D