Get healthy or else, say employers (Obamacare)

[zephyrprime]

What bothers me most is that they aren't giving value to some people, they are actually penalizing them. Some companies have decided to dock pay for not participating, so the person is much worse off than before these programs were implemented. I can get behind a reward system where the person gets incentives for participating, but cutting healthcare to some of the people that need it most seems strange.

It is mathematically impossible for some people to get something without others getting docked in any sort of insurance system. In any sort of insurance system (all insurance, not just health care), you're paying into a cummunal pool of money. It is impossible for someone to get "incentives" without someone else paying for them. Even if you disguise it so it seems like the other people aren't being penalized, all you're really doing is penalizing them by having across the board premium increases to pay for the incentives.

TLDR: you can't give someone something in insurance without someone paying for it.

 

[cabri]

Pfft. Yeah right. Most unhealthy people don't even see the doctor hardly ever until they start developing conditions. Americans are just fat as fuck. The whole reason we need the statins is because everyone is fat as fuck.

This sort of thing was inevitable. One of the ways to reduce insurance costs is to force everyone to be healthier whether they want to or not. And since we have private insurance in the US, there is nothing anyone can do about intrusive measures like this. You can leave your job but soon that won't be an option because every company will have programs like this.

Most unhealthy people can not afford to see the doctor (sick pay availability) and/or have no insurance. Home made/over the counter remedies and tough it out. They went for professional help when they could no longer handle the issue/pain.

With the ACA the insurance issue may have been reduced. You still have the lost time and co-pays/deductibles that will have an impact.

 

[umbrella39]

Hmm....

My hospital group I work for:

Before Obamacare - Wellness program consisted of $150 credit towards reducing premiums BUT....

We had to pee in a cup to prove we weren't smoking
< PLUS >
We had to have blood drawn at a lab to check cholesterol, check for diabetes, etc.

After Obamacare kicked in:

* No more peeing in a cup to prove not a smoker - simply check a box
* Even if a smoker, click a box stating you are going to try to quit smoking to get the credit
* No more blood draw - Just answer 10 questions online and submit for credit

After ACA we now get a credit card issued from ADP to be used for co-pays, scripts, whatever you want within the realm of health care and it is up from $150 to $350.

Thanks Obamacare?

 

[cabri]

Hmm....

My hospital group I work for:

Before Obamacare - Wellness program consisted of $150 credit towards reducing premiums BUT....

We had to pee in a cup to prove we weren't smoking
< PLUS >
We had to have blood drawn at a lab to check cholesterol, check for diabetes, etc.

After Obamacare kicked in:

* No more peeing in a cup to prove not a smoker - simply check a box
* Even if a smoker, click a box stating you are going to try to quit smoking to get the credit
* No more blood draw - Just answer 10 questions online and submit for credit

After ACA we now get a credit card issued from ADP to be used for co-pays, scripts, whatever you want within the realm of health care and it is up from $150 to $350.

Thanks Obamacare?

And who is covering the extra $200?

Your employer, either because of being mandated or the potential savings from a healthier work force.

That $200 is not longer being available for other uses that may actually be of a different benefit to the employer.

$$ is being taken from the employer and passed down to you because of a government regulation.

While it may be good for you, it is more government intrusion into the employer.

Note that the extra amount did not exists prior to the ACA.

 

[umbrella39]

In reality... no one is mandated to do a thing with this Wellness program. Last year 73% of the well over 10,000 employees in our health ministry chose not to participate and get the $350 discounts. I guess I am just a sucker for free shit and don't mind the intrusion as I am a healthy, non smoker, non drinker, at my ideal body weight with nothing to hide... Bring on the thought police next!!!

 

[shira]

In reality... no one is mandated to do a thing with this Wellness program. Last year 73% of the well over 10,000 employees in our health ministry chose not to participate and get the $350 discounts. I guess I am just a sucker for free shit and don't mind the intrusion as I am a healthy, non smoker, non drinker, at my ideal body weight with nothing to hide... Bring on the thought police next!!!

Yeah, it's just AWFUL that employees have the option to participate in wellness programs and get free money for it. It's just awful that if they don't want free money, they don't need to do anything at all.

 

[bradley]

Pfft. Yeah right. Most unhealthy people don't even see the doctor hardly ever until they start developing conditions. Americans are just fat as fuck. The whole reason we need the statins is because everyone is fat as fuck.

This sort of thing was inevitable. One of the ways to reduce insurance costs is to force everyone to be healthier whether they want to or not. And since we have private insurance in the US, there is nothing anyone can do about intrusive measures like this. You can leave your job but soon that won't be an option because every company will have programs like this.

One needs statins like a hole in the head. For-profit health care is about prolonging the disease not about finding the cure. I hope the enlightenment provided here will give someone suffering from statin sides pause for concern over their medication. Don't expect your doctor to know anything about statins cause memory loss, type II diabetes, neuropathy, muscle, kidney and liver damage etc.

Anyhow the writing is on the wall. The Affordable Care Act or Corporatecare will eventually gut and replace Medicaid, and insurance companies will no longer call all the shots, pharmaceuticals and the government will. Nothing changes except some major power and wealth distribution.

The great Obamacare-Medicaid bait 'n' switch
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102330644#.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Who do you want to hold them personally accountable? Wouldn't be the government by any chance? Or is it Karma?

Of course that would fall under properly written regulations. Note properly written. Labor has taken a lot of hits with outsourcing and a whole lot more. We could use a government who was less in the pockets of those with money with which to buy politicians office and power.

I could go on a quite some time with points amounting to a wall of text, but mere punishment of corporations and "tax the rich" and stimulus will not do the job. It requires much more.

 

[werepossum]

Pfft. Yeah right. Most unhealthy people don't even see the doctor hardly ever until they start developing conditions. Americans are just fat as fuck. The whole reason we need the statins is because everyone is fat as fuck.

This sort of thing was inevitable. One of the ways to reduce insurance costs is to force everyone to be healthier whether they want to or not. And since we have private insurance in the US, there is nothing anyone can do about intrusive measures like this. You can leave your job but soon that won't be an option because every company will have programs like this.

I agree it's inevitable; Obamacare just made it more attractive for employers. The more we socialize health insurance and health care, the more we are accountable to others for our life choices. Yet if we don't socialize health insurance and health care, it's not accessible to many people; there just is no viable for-profit/charitable model.

It is mathematically impossible for some people to get something without others getting docked in any sort of insurance system. In any sort of insurance system (all insurance, not just health care), you're paying into a cummunal pool of money. It is impossible for someone to get "incentives" without someone else paying for them. Even if you disguise it so it seems like the other people aren't being penalized, all you're really doing is penalizing them by having across the board premium increases to pay for the incentives.

TLDR: you can't give someone something in insurance without someone paying for it.

True, and well said. However, IF this works, it may at least reduce the overall pool cost. With private insurance, some people come out ahead and others come out behind. With Obamacare, some other people come out ahead and some others come out behind. With wellness incentives, some people must suffer to cut costs for everyone.

Everything proggies force you to do against your will is for your own good, but at least this has a core of truth. Most people who are fat would be healthier and happier if they weren't fat; most people who smoke would be healthier and happier if they weren't smokers. Closer to fair than banning a Big Gulp whether one is 6'-10" & 160 pounds or 5'-0" & 260 pounds anyway.

Hmm....

My hospital group I work for:

Before Obamacare - Wellness program consisted of $150 credit towards reducing premiums BUT....

We had to pee in a cup to prove we weren't smoking
< PLUS >
We had to have blood drawn at a lab to check cholesterol, check for diabetes, etc.

After Obamacare kicked in:

* No more peeing in a cup to prove not a smoker - simply check a box
* Even if a smoker, click a box stating you are going to try to quit smoking to get the credit
* No more blood draw - Just answer 10 questions online and submit for credit

After ACA we now get a credit card issued from ADP to be used for co-pays, scripts, whatever you want within the realm of health care and it is up from $150 to $350.

Thanks Obamacare?

lol Obama giveth and Obama taketh away, blessed be the name of Obama. My own HSA deductible went from $2,700 to $3,700 (mandated by the ACA) and we had to step down to a cheaper insurance plan, so all our medications are more expensive. It's the big government model - one picks the group one wants to be winners and the group one wants to be losers and begins crafting law behind closed doors.

 

[Zorkorist]

Yet if we don't socialize health insurance and health care, it's not accessible to many people; there just is no viable for-profit/charitable model.

Why would you think Government, that same Government that is 18 Trillion Dollars in debt, would be a better manager of health care than Free Markets?

It seems easy to see, that they will only accelerate the problem, that is healthcare.

True, and well said. However, IF this works, it may at least reduce the overall pool cost. With private insurance, some people come out ahead and others come out behind. With Obamacare, some other people come out ahead and some others come out behind. With wellness incentives, some people must suffer to cut costs for everyone.

It fucks over the young, to pay for the old.

Everything proggies force you to do against your will is for your own good, but at least this has a core of truth. Most people who are fat would be healthier and happier if they weren't fat; most people who smoke would be healthier and happier if they weren't smokers. Closer to fair than banning a Big Gulp whether one is 6'-10" & 160 pounds or 5'-0" & 260 pounds anyway.

You are a proggie.

-John

 

[Strk]

Why would you think Government, that same Government that is 18 Trillion Dollars in debt, would be a better manager of health care than Free Markets?

It seems easy to see, that they will only accelerate the problem, that is healthcare.



It fucks over the young, to pay for the old.



You are a proggie.

-John

Do you actually think we have a free market?

 

[shira]

I agree it's inevitable; Obamacare just made it more attractive for employers. The more we socialize health insurance and health care, the more we are accountable to others for our life choices. Yet if we don't socialize health insurance and health care, it's not accessible to many people; there just is no viable for-profit/charitable model.


True, and well said. However, IF this works, it may at least reduce the overall pool cost. With private insurance, some people come out ahead and others come out behind. With Obamacare, some other people come out ahead and some others come out behind. With wellness incentives, some people must suffer to cut costs for everyone.

Everything proggies force you to do against your will is for your own good, but at least this has a core of truth. Most people who are fat would be healthier and happier if they weren't fat; most people who smoke would be healthier and happier if they weren't smokers. Closer to fair than banning a Big Gulp whether one is 6'-10" & 160 pounds or 5'-0" & 260 pounds anyway.


lol Obama giveth and Obama taketh away, blessed be the name of Obama. My own HSA deductible went from $2,700 to $3,700 (mandated by the ACA) and we had to step down to a cheaper insurance plan, so all our medications are more expensive. It's the big government model - one picks the group one wants to be winners and the group one wants to be losers and begins crafting law behind closed doors.

I call bullshit on this. Here are the ACA requirements for Employer-provided HSA plans for 2015:

2015 HSA requirements:

• HSA-qualified plans must be high deductible. This year your plan must have a deductible no lower than $1,300 for an individual (that’s an increase of $50 from 2014) and $2,600 for a family (up from $2,500 last year).
• Contributions are capped at $3,350 for individuals and $6,650 for families. If you are 55 or older, you can add an additional $1,000, or $4,350 for individuals and $7,650 for a family.
• Maximum annual out-of-pocket expenses including deductibles, copays and other amount except premiums are capped at $6,450 for individuals and $12,900 for families.[/

Your employer decided to to with a $3700 deductible rather than retain its 2700 deductible from last year. Don't blame the ACA.

 

[Zorkorist]

Do you actually think we have a free market?

We haven't had free markets, for a long time, as illustrated by our huge debt, over-riding regulation, and Government corruption.

Were we supposed to have free markets? Yes.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Government likes to tell everyone how they are helping, when meanwhile we go 18 Trillion dollars in debt.

That's a lot of health care...

-John

 

[senseamp]

Of course that would fall under properly written regulations. Note properly written. Labor has taken a lot of hits with outsourcing and a whole lot more. We could use a government who was less in the pockets of those with money with which to buy politicians office and power.

I could go on a quite some time with points amounting to a wall of text, but mere punishment of corporations and "tax the rich" and stimulus will not do the job. It requires much more.

We have the government and regulations we deserve. When we deserve better, we'll have better. But a corporation's job is to maximize return to shareholders, not run social welfare programs for their employees instead of the government.

 

[Jhhnn]

Doesn't matter, the people who Obamacare supporters care about and want to shovel taxpayer subsidies towards don't have jobs or employers anyway.

Shameless posturing. Lots of people who have jobs don't get employer sponsored healthcare, particularly low income workers. That's why there's a sliding scale for subsidies under the ACA.

If the fabled Job Creators were actually creating sufficient middle class jobs with benefits, the ACA never would have been created. Obviously, they prefer cheaper offshore production.

Argue against the facts rather than your own straw man.

What it amounts to is that some employers are using the ACA as an excuse to make new demands of their employees, just another manifestation of Right Wing Authoritarianism.

 

[Jhhnn]

We have the government and regulations we deserve. When we deserve better, we'll have better. But a corporation's job is to maximize return to shareholders, not run social welfare programs for their employees instead of the government.

Corporations are chartered by the government of the people & therefore are obligated to meet the terms of their charter. A corporation's job is whatever we the people define it to be.

That applies to all kinds of social welfare- SS, SSDI, Workmen's comp, UI & safety to name a few.

 

[Zorkorist]

We have the government and regulations we deserve. When we deserve better, we'll have better. But a corporation's job is to maximize return to shareholders, not run social welfare programs for their employees instead of the government.

You don't seem to understand that a corporation may be better off by running social welfare programs for their employees.

You just think, by default, a corporation is going to fuck employees.

This is why you are not a president of a corporation.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Corporations are chartered by the government of the people & therefore are obligated to meet the terms of their charter. A corporation's job is whatever we the people define it to be.

That applies to all kinds of social welfare- SS, SSDI, Workmen's comp, UI & safety to name a few.

Yea, but you haven't the foggiest idea of what is good for the shareholders.

This is why you aren't a corporate big wig.

-John

 

[Zorba]

My mom's company has been punishing unhealthy people since at least 2008, so this isn't new.

I've had to do a health questioner and some other BS every year to get some sort of incentive or avoid a penalty since 2009, pre-ACA.

 

[Zorkorist]

Insurance Companies, are, the ACA.

Now they have Government enforcement.

-John

 

[OverVolt]

My mom's company has been punishing unhealthy people since at least 2008, so this isn't new.

I've had to do a health questioner and some other BS every year to get some sort of incentive or avoid a penalty since 2009, pre-ACA.

It went from up to 20% of your premiums per senseamp pre-ACA to up to 50% of your premiums under the ACA. So they have more teeth. And employers have been wanting to expand these programs and increase participation desperately. So more sticks and carrots bullshit.

 

[Siddhartha]

On my last job, the health insurance company sent out "voluntary health wellness" questionnaires. I guess they did not get the response they wanted. Then they offered a $10 reward for submitting a filled out questionnaire. Next they said there would be a $50 penalty and your manager would be notified if the questionnaire was not submitted by a certain date.

When I quit that job, they were talking about "voluntary" health goals. I would be willing to bet a couple of beers about the direction where they are going with the "health goals".

 

[OverVolt]

On my last job, the health insurance company sent out "voluntary health wellness" questionnaires. I guess they did not get the response they wanted. Then they offered a $10 reward for submitting a filled out questionnaire. Next they said there would be a $50 penalty and your manager would be notified if the questionnaire was not submitted by a certain date.

When I quit that job, they were talking about "voluntary" health goals. I would be willing to bet a couple of beers about the direction where they are going with the "health goals".

An EEOC lawsuit? :awe: Health is a protected employment status.

 

[zephyrprime]

Most unhealthy people can not afford to see the doctor (sick pay availability) and/or have no insurance. Home made/over the counter remedies and tough it out. They went for professional help when they could no longer handle the issue/pain.

With the ACA the insurance issue may have been reduced. You still have the lost time and co-pays/deductibles that will have an impact.

83% of people have health insurance according to this. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/many-americans-still-lack-health-insurance/

Your contention that most unhealthy people can not afford health insurance is simply wrong. I don't believe that copays and etc simply put as much of a damper and medical use as you claim.

Also, the most common type of unhealthy persons don't really need a doctor. They need a lifestyle coach to force them onto a diet and exercise regime.