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General VR discussion thread

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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
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I would say maybe 1/3 can be played on Rift at this time -- that might change with Touch. But it's hard to say because of the 400 or so VR things they have on there, at least 350 are shovelware. Anything that requires motion controls cannot be played -- gamepad only games - and most tell you if they are Rift and or Vive or both compatible.

You can use Rift with Steam VR via an option in the Oculus storefront.

It remains to be seen if Touch will work by default with Rift games. My guess is that in some cases no, and some cases yes with some glitches.

ReVive works, but doesn't always work and can break at any time. It is a risk to buy Oculus games thinking you can play them on the Vive.
Yup:

1. Most VR games are crap right now. The rest are really great demos, short experiences, and a few quality games. I really don't have many lasting games in my Steam VR library. That's just how it is right now.
2. Exactly, no guarantee Revive will work forever. It's a diceroll & it's not something that I'd specifically buy the Vive on as an available "feature".
3. Haven't read any news on Rift's Roomscale support. Would love to see a common interface setup, just like say USB mice, but I don't know if the math translations would work because the capture systems are so different.
4. The Steam app does let you sort by HMD...if you launch Steam & go into the VR store, you can click the X next to Vive to have it sort Oculus-compatible games. There is some crossover, for the devs who bother to do so, but it would ruin quite a few games that are specifically made for Roomscale if you couldn't walk around. Stuff like Holopoint would be totally useless without room tracking.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,793
826
126
One thing that should be pointed out about Touch is that it will have finger movement. I'm not clear if it is on/off movement or actual tracked movement somehow - like leap - but guessing it is on off movement, but it is of all fingers which can add complexity to functions.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
154
106
Sorry, some confusion about my question #1
"Most (if not all) games on Steam can be played on Rift?"

I am aware that you cannot play room scale on the Rift *right now* since "they need to be able to track you in 3D space", but my question was whether it is technically (and in principle) possible that they RUN on the machine, even if with only one camera you can of course not have Roomscale or 360.
(Or asked differently: For the sake of answering this question, assume that "Rift = Touch AND an extra 3rd camera", so that the Rift technically is set up for Roomscale.) My question was not whether you can play Roomscale on a vanilla rift, I know this doesn't work.

Why am I confused? Because you said there are technical reasons that HTC Games won't work since the 3D tracking is entirely different, but this is not what I read one some sites on the web were it sounded to me that there is no such technical difference,meaning that "in principle" all Steam games would run on the Rift....and with 2, or 3 cameras for the Rift they would not just "run" but can actually be played.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
46,137
3,187
126
Sorry, some confusion about my question #1
"Most (if not all) games on Steam can be played on Rift?"

I am aware that you cannot play room scale on the Rift *right now* since "they need to be able to track you in 3D space", but my question was whether it is technically (and in principle) possible that they RUN on the machine, even if with only one camera you can of course not have Roomscale or 360.
(Or asked differently: For the sake of answering this question, assume that "Rift = Touch AND an extra 3rd camera", so that the Rift technically is set up for Roomscale.) My question was not whether you can play Roomscale on a vanilla rift, I know this doesn't work.

Why am I confused? Because you said there are technical reasons that HTC Games won't work since the 3D tracking is entirely different, but this is not what I read one some sites on the web were it sounded to me that there is no such technical difference,meaning that "in principle" all Steam games would run on the Rift....and with 2, or 3 cameras for the Rift they would not just "run" but can actually be played.
Oh, gotcha. In principle, it should work - provided the developers add support for it to their games. I mean, at the base level, Revive lets you play Rift games on the Vive, even though they use different tracking methods, so in theory, Roomscale on the Vive should apply to Roomscale with the Rift & their multi-camera setup (Lighthouse system vs. camera system). I'd imagine they'll figure out some kind of middleman software, just like the HID stuff for keyboards & mice, so that everything works with everything & you're free to choose whichever hardware setup you'd like (that's basically what Revive is). However, as of right now, today, Oculus has not said anything about compatibility with Vive Roomscale games, so if you're banking on cross-platform compatibility, I would wait for an official announcement. The only thing I've seen is Oculus talking about how they will be supporting room scale as a generic concept (of being mobile within your room), but not specifically Vive's Roomscale implementation:

http://www.roadtovr.com/oculus-touch-support-room-scale-360-tracking-extra-cameras-sensor/

They also aren't super keen on roomscale tracking in general:

http://www.roadtovr.com/oculus-touch-full-capable-roomscale-tracking-not-sure-absolutely-necessary/

However, with their multi-camera setup, they may end up being more powerful than the Vive...they are focused on seated & now standing with light movement experiences, which means that you can play forward-facing games in a smaller space, but still experience a bit of movement, which I think will work well for a lot of games. And going beyond that, you can use up to 4 cameras, so whereas some movements would block the controllers or headsets from being properly tracked with the Vive, you'd get more "eyes on" with four cameras on the Rift & would be able to cover more angles if you're ducking or crouching or whatever. Anyway, as it stands today:

1. Vive officially supports Vive games
2. Vive unofficially supports Rift games (through third-party Revive software)
3. Rift officially supports Rift games

There's also pricing to consider. The Vive is $800 with the headset, 2 Lighthouses, and 2 VR controllers. The Rift with Touch controllers is also $800...plus $80 per individual camera (up to 4 cameras, 3 is minimum for roomscale), so you'd need the Rift+Touch & 3x cameras at the very least, which is $1040...nearly $250 more than the Vive.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,035
674
126
I'd imagine they'll figure out some kind of middleman software, just like the HID stuff for keyboards & mice, so that everything works with everything & you're free to choose whichever hardware setup you'd like (that's basically what Revive is).
That's what SteamVR serves as right now. Room Scale on the Oculus will only work on Steam-only VR games whenever SteamVR has support for Oculus's camera system. They'll most likely just make calls to the Oculus SDK, but it still needs to be there.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
46,137
3,187
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That's what SteamVR serves as right now. Room Scale on the Oculus will only work on Steam-only VR games whenever SteamVR has support for Oculus's camera system. They'll most likely just make calls to the Oculus SDK, but it still needs to be there.
That would make a lot of sense! I'm all for it, too - the more players we get in VR, the more people we have for multi-player, the more money is dumped into the ecosystem & the more VR grows. I don't see it as a negative thing at all, especially since now Vive has announced their gen2 controllers & Oculus has support for 4 cameras for enhanced tracking. Lots of cool stuff going on!
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Sorry, some confusion about my question #1
"Most (if not all) games on Steam can be played on Rift?"

I am aware that you cannot play room scale on the Rift *right now* since "they need to be able to track you in 3D space", but my question was whether it is technically (and in principle) possible that they RUN on the machine, even if with only one camera you can of course not have Roomscale or 360.
(Or asked differently: For the sake of answering this question, assume that "Rift = Touch AND an extra 3rd camera", so that the Rift technically is set up for Roomscale.) My question was not whether you can play Roomscale on a vanilla rift, I know this doesn't work.

Why am I confused? Because you said there are technical reasons that HTC Games won't work since the 3D tracking is entirely different, but this is not what I read one some sites on the web were it sounded to me that there is no such technical difference,meaning that "in principle" all Steam games would run on the Rift....and with 2, or 3 cameras for the Rift they would not just "run" but can actually be played.
I can't see why they wouldn't. Games should just be made in OpenVR. I'm sure even if it's not native for some games there will be a program like revive if that's even needed. We don't need fragmentation of a nascent industry. Have they not learned anything from VHS vs. Beta or HD-DVD vs. Blu Ray?
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
46,137
3,187
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I can't see why they wouldn't. Games should just be made in OpenVR. I'm sure even if it's not native for some games there will be a program like revive if that's even needed. We don't need fragmentation of a nascent industry. Have they not learned anything from VHS vs. Beta or HD-DVD vs. Blu Ray?
Because the Oculus Touch is launching with over 30 full titles:

https://www3.oculus.com/en-us/blog/over-30-full-games-launching-with-oculus-touch-this-year/

Will they work with Revive? If there's no middleman to translate the Lighthouses to camera inputs, then no. The bottom line right now is that there is no confirmation about cross-platform compatibility, and Oculus has been a big fan of exclusives (for obvious business reasons) since the get-go. Hopefully the Revive project will be able to add support for Oculus Touch games, or perhaps SteamVR will do the translation. Remains to be seen!
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
46,137
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126
We should schedule some Rec Room time. I played paintball with an awesome group tonight, it was a blast! They have a new (to me, at least) River level. It's pretty dang fun when you have a bunch of people playing!
 
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mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
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I tried google cardboard for a few minutes. This is my only venture into VR so far and I was quite impressed how easily my eyes could focus on the two images and create a solid image without any obvious ghosting or double vision. It was much easier for me to see the 3d then in a movie theater wearing glasses. I can imagine, with two screens, that the greater resolution makes it that much better.

The limited FOV kept me from getting really immersed....but it definitely felt cool to have head tracking. I think the whale that dove up out of the water actually felt quite large, which is usually missed out on a traditional display.

I didn't feel woozy when I did the bird flight demo but I did get that sense of vertigo when I looked down at the ocean. I got pretty dizzy when I did the 360' panorama tours of Versailles. Not sure why!
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
154
106
I was doing a little research re: "alternative VR headsets, and while all those China Rift clones seem to suck, I discovered at least TWO "upcoming" headsets which seem extremely interesting

The one is StarVR with insane specs (I didn't research this further today), but the other which REALLY caught my attention was "FOVE".

FOVE (getfove.com) will be the first headset that uses eyetracking and FOVEATED rendering, which I think is HUGE. I was raving about eyetracking and foveated rendering on the OR forums for the longest already. It is huge since, simply spoken, foveated rendering only renders details where you look at, exactly how the eye works. This would make 4K etc. resolutions possible even on mainstream computers which right now need to waste 95% of rendering for things you don't even look at.

With the other benefits of eyetracking/foveated renderind that it would add another layer of realism to VR of course.

I don't know much yet about the FOVE but:

Preordering for their "0" series starts in 10 days
It is supposed to be only $350
It unfortunately has only 70hz (a real downer here)

http://www.roadtovr.com/fove-0-eye-tracking-vr-headset-final-specs-pre-order-date/

As for foveated rendering, one could assume that the next iterations of Rift, Vive etc. have it. It's really the "next big thing! for VR, imho.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
46,137
3,187
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I tried google cardboard for a few minutes. This is my only venture into VR so far and I was quite impressed how easily my eyes could focus on the two images and create a solid image without any obvious ghosting or double vision. It was much easier for me to see the 3d then in a movie theater wearing glasses. I can imagine, with two screens, that the greater resolution makes it that much better.

The limited FOV kept me from getting really immersed....but it definitely felt cool to have head tracking. I think the whale that dove up out of the water actually felt quite large, which is usually missed out on a traditional display.

I didn't feel woozy when I did the bird flight demo but I did get that sense of vertigo when I looked down at the ocean. I got pretty dizzy when I did the 360' panorama tours of Versailles. Not sure why!
It's because you need 90hz screens! Haha.

Now imagine using the Vive...not only does it track your head, but also your head as it moves through the room, plus your two Wiimote-style controllers. Accuracy is down to like a millimeter or two, it's crazy good! The first thing everybody tries to do with my GearVR is get up & try to walk around the room, but you need Roomscale for that.
 

mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
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It's because you need 90hz screens! Haha.

Now imagine using the Vive...not only does it track your head, but also your head as it moves through the room, plus your two Wiimote-style controllers. Accuracy is down to like a millimeter or two, it's crazy good! The first thing everybody tries to do with my GearVR is get up & try to walk around the room, but you need Roomscale for that.
Yeah! I was also using a 560x960 screen :-/

I imagine that if i was impressed with that then I'd be blown away by the rift or vive. I'tl probably be rift v2.0 by the time I will ever get to see one lol
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
46,137
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Yeah! I was also using a 560x960 screen :-/

I imagine that if i was impressed with that then I'd be blown away by the rift or vive. I'tl probably be rift v2.0 by the time I will ever get to see one lol
I will say that it's not hugely better, in terms of screen quality. Like, 90hz is better for your brain, but going from my GearVR (Note 5) to the Vive wasn't really any kind of jump at all. You can still see the pixels etc. What makes it better is Roomscale & the VR motion controllers. Having super-accurate tracking of the HMD & wands around the room is what makes the immersion work.

Next thing we need to do is get Retina screens for VR. Wireless etc. can come later. Upping the resolution is what's going to take VR to the next level imo. Honestly, I don't mind having a cord all that much because it's not like I'm playing in an open field; my room space is limited & you naturally learn to walk around the cord with about five minutes of game time, so meh. At some point we will reach wireless 8K screens & it will be glorious!
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
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I will say that it's not hugely better, in terms of screen quality. Like, 90hz is better for your brain, but going from my GearVR (Note 5) to the Vive wasn't really any kind of jump at all. You can still see the pixels etc. What makes it better is Roomscale & the VR motion controllers. Having super-accurate tracking of the HMD & wands around the room is what makes the immersion work.

Next thing we need to do is get Retina screens for VR. Wireless etc. can come later. Upping the resolution is what's going to take VR to the next level imo. Honestly, I don't mind having a cord all that much because it's not like I'm playing in an open field; my room space is limited & you naturally learn to walk around the cord with about five minutes of game time, so meh. At some point we will reach wireless 8K screens & it will be glorious!
It's the video card to handle it... i expect to be at be retina with no goggle effect in 7 years.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
46,137
3,187
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It's the video card to handle it... i expect to be at be retina with no goggle effect in 7 years.
Yeah, even the GTX1080 chokes on some VR games right now. They're going to have to make some crazy strides in GPU tech to make Retina VR happen. The problem is that it isn't "just" 8K resolution...it's videos too. Right now, VR video is something like 12K for our ~1080p screens (because you have to patch multiple 1080p screens around in a sphere) & since we don't have anything that can drive that, VR videos just end up looking like 240p Youtube in 360. Ugh.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
10,563
666
126
I just have to say I was quite impressed with the google cardboard VR + my galaxy S7.

I played some proper VR games and pr0n with quality headtracking + 360 degrees FoV. That was very immersive for a free cardboard thingy I got at an event.
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
421
162
116
I was doing a little research re: "alternative VR headsets, and while all those China Rift clones seem to suck, I discovered at least TWO "upcoming" headsets which seem extremely interesting

The one is StarVR with insane specs (I didn't research this further today), but the other which REALLY caught my attention was "FOVE".

FOVE (getfove.com) will be the first headset that uses eyetracking and FOVEATED rendering, which I think is HUGE. I was raving about eyetracking and foveated rendering on the OR forums for the longest already. It is huge since, simply spoken, foveated rendering only renders details where you look at, exactly how the eye works. This would make 4K etc. resolutions possible even on mainstream computers which right now need to waste 95% of rendering for things you don't even look at.

With the other benefits of eyetracking/foveated renderind that it would add another layer of realism to VR of course.

I don't know much yet about the FOVE but:

Preordering for their "0" series starts in 10 days
It is supposed to be only $350
It unfortunately has only 70hz (a real downer here)

http://www.roadtovr.com/fove-0-eye-tracking-vr-headset-final-specs-pre-order-date/

As for foveated rendering, one could assume that the next iterations of Rift, Vive etc. have it. It's really the "next big thing! for VR, imho.
FOVE seems pretty pointless unless you are a developer. It only has 42% more pixels than rift/vive, so it's not going to be a revelation in clarity, especially if you're already using supersampling. Foveated rendering is going to require software support that a venture this small is not likely to get in any meaningful way. There is overhead with foveated rendering and the net performance benefits with that low res of a screen are probably not going to be that great.

The real next gen of headsets will probably have foveated rendering, but I don't think it is worth bothering with at this point.


I will say that it's not hugely better, in terms of screen quality. Like, 90hz is better for your brain, but going from my GearVR (Note 5) to the Vive wasn't really any kind of jump at all. You can still see the pixels etc. What makes it better is Roomscale & the VR motion controllers. Having super-accurate tracking of the HMD & wands around the room is what makes the immersion work.

Next thing we need to do is get Retina screens for VR. Wireless etc. can come later. Upping the resolution is what's going to take VR to the next level imo. Honestly, I don't mind having a cord all that much because it's not like I'm playing in an open field; my room space is limited & you naturally learn to walk around the cord with about five minutes of game time, so meh. At some point we will reach wireless 8K screens & it will be glorious!
I disagree. I think wireless would allow for much greater immersion than higher res screens. The physical presence of the cord is a constant reminder that I am not "there". Imagine playing holopoint without having to worry about how many times you've spun around, or being able to get on your hands and knees in budget cuts without having to worry about stepping on the cable when you stand back up.

For seated VR I would agree that resolution is the most important. It would allow for practical virtual desktops, great movie watching experiences, and very immersive cockpit games. For roomscale though, we gotta cut the cord.

Luckily it appears that a wireless solution for gen 1 headsets is already pretty far along.

It's the video card to handle it... i expect to be at be retina with no goggle effect in 7 years.
Oculus' head of research is not so optimistic
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
154
106
I absolutely agree that IMHO the benefit of foveated rendering would only be there with big resolutions, aka "4k HMDs with giant immerive FOVs that don't require monster GPUs". From that point of view, the FOVE with small reso but foveated rendering just doesn't make too much sense to me either. It almost looks like a "proof of concept" to me in this case with little "real life" benefit, for THIS type of hardware.

Foveated rendering just for the sake of foveated rendering doesn't make sense, but this is sorta how this looks to me.
 
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flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
154
106
There is no question that Vive 2.0 and Rift CV2 etc. will be "better", but so will anything else, GPUs, hardware etc.
Say if the next gen HMDs are 4K you will in all likelihood need a beefier PC too. In my case, it is my understanding that my GTX970 is BARELY enough to get started with VR, so planning forward for a next-gen HMD would of course also mean a new PC.
 

Mutilator

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2000
3,516
10
81
My problem with people that keep saying should I wait for version 2.0? There may not be a version 2.0 if enough people don't buy 1.0.
This is PC gaming we're talking about... if you want it now, you get it now. If you wait for something better you will always be waiting.
 

pj-

Senior member
May 5, 2015
421
162
116
Oculus has said the rift's life will be longer than a phone, shorter than a console.

I wouldn't expect a new major headset until 2018. If you want to get into VR but aren't dying for it then it may be worth waiting 6 months to see what happens with current hardware (valve is working on smaller lighthouses, more refined controllers, and new controllers), or if there will be any price drops.

Presumably both companies will get better at making these things and reach a point where the "full" VR system doesn't need to cost $800.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,035
674
126
Hm, it does make me wonder a bit about the future of our existing components. For example, we've seen that Valve is working on new controllers, but will our current Vive controllers still always work? My thought is that when Vive 2.0 comes out, Valve may be able to create different sets of hardware to help keep costs down. So, if I already have a Vive, I could say, "Well, I don't need the new controllers", and I simply order the HMD alone. ...or I could say that I want the new controllers, and order the HMD and the controllers, but I don't need the lighthouses.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
154
106
There is some AMAZING stuff in the works, keyword here..just to get you started "Lightfield" technology. (Look it up, it's awesome!) Nvidia showed prototypes. 2017 *may* if we're very lucky give us some early versions of new and exciting HMDs, but I don't think anything "serious" will be out until 2018. Please, don't forget that ACTUAL games are not that plenty either, one major complaint still of CURRENT devices. Doesn't make sense to release new tech at this point. As for myself, I settled now for a Rift + Touch and currently I am looking for good (used) deals online. (TONS are actually selling their kits for various reasons. There is an astonishing number of people who win Rifts in contests but don't have the hardware, and then the folks who tried it but then say they can't use it because of motion sickness etc.) or some just say it's not for them. I concluded that the Rift + Touch (in December) is at least as good if not better than the Vive for me.


Edit: LIGHTFIELD
 
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