Gen. David Petraeus says the burning of Koran would ...

[Infohawk]

People were trying to get the mosque banned

Not most of the mosque opponents on this board. And yet that doozy was flung around a lot.

 

[manimal]

Who is more at fault here?

This small group of people know one would otherwise care about, or the MSM for publicizing this?

By publicizing this, what impression does the MSM give to Muslims outside of, and unfamiliar with, the USA?

Who exactly is "poking the hornet's nest"?

Ferm

Sorry using MSM or even saying mainstream media shows you watch fox news/listen to glenn/sarah/rush and the rest of that propaganda.....


Is it free speech to walk into a theater and scream fire?

 

[manimal]

Not most of the mosque opponents on this board. And yet that doozy was flung around a lot.

Once again you make assumptions based on what you wanted to hear...

Most of us were saying that tolerance and religious freedom were not situational. Its the same as my belief that burning these books in florida is an exercise in religious freedom. The problem is these freedoms do have consequences.

The consequence is we are currently in a powder keg situation. Do you really want to throw gasoline onto the fire?

I can also exercise my freedom to oppose such action and lay out a argument why its bad.

Its the above reference to screaming fire in a movie theater... you can exercise that right, just be prepared for the consequence..

You can support the troops or you can put them in harms way in a feeble attempt at teaching someone a lesson...

The moral equivalency canard does not matter in these cases. We can choose to take the high ground or become the very thing we are fighting against...

 

[Infohawk]

Once again you make assumptions based on what you wanted to hear...

Most of us were saying that tolerance and religious freedom were not situational. Its the same as my belief that burning these books in florida is an exercise in religious freedom. The problem is these freedoms do have consequences.

The consequence is we are currently in a powder keg situation. Do you really want to throw gasoline onto the fire?

I can also exercise my freedom to oppose such action and lay out a argument why its bad.

Its the above reference to screaming fire in a movie theater... you can exercise that right, just be prepared for the consequence..

You can support the troops or you can put them in harms way in a feeble attempt at teaching someone a lesson...

The moral equivalency canard does not matter in these cases. We can choose to take the high ground or become the very thing we are fighting against...

You post is rambling and I'm not sure you're actually understanding or addressing anything I've posted in this thread. All I can say is that your fire in a movie theater is a terrible analogy or a misunderstanding on your part. Unlike the opening of mosque near ground zero or the burning of books, intentionally yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire is not protected by the Constitution. The state can take action against you for that. So I'm not really sure what you're getting at there.

 

[Wardawg1001]

Once again you make assumptions based on what you wanted to hear...

Most of us were saying that tolerance and religious freedom were not situational. Its the same as my belief that burning these books in florida is an exercise in religious freedom. The problem is these freedoms do have consequences.

The consequence is we are currently in a powder keg situation. Do you really want to throw gasoline onto the fire?

I can also exercise my freedom to oppose such action and lay out a argument why its bad.

Its the above reference to screaming fire in a movie theater... you can exercise that right, just be prepared for the consequence..

You can support the troops or you can put them in harms way in a feeble attempt at teaching someone a lesson...

The moral equivalency canard does not matter in these cases. We can choose to take the high ground or become the very thing we are fighting against...

There is a very distinct difference in your examples. If you scream fire in a crowded movie theater and there isn't one, you will suffer the consequences as handed out by the law (you could be liable for damages to the theater and injuries suffered in the rush to get out). These idiots in the church will not suffer any legal repercussions if people die because of their book burnings. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't allow them to do it, but its hardly fair to say that they are going to suffer the consequences of their actions. This is no more an issue of taking the moral high ground than it was to make the decision that someone who needlessly causes a panic in a crowded public area should be responsible for damages/injuries. If your actions cause people to die (American citizens in particular), then you should be held liable for that in some manner. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how that is going to happen to these people.

 

[manimal]

There is a very distinct difference in your examples. If you scream fire in a crowded movie theater and there isn't one, you will suffer the consequences as handed out by the law (you could be liable for damages to the theater and injuries suffered in the rush to get out). These idiots in the church will not suffer any legal repercussions if people die because of their book burnings. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't allow them to do it, but its hardly fair to say that they are going to suffer the consequences of their actions. This is no more an issue of taking the moral high ground than it was to make the decision that someone who needlessly causes a panic in a crowded public area should be responsible for damages/injuries. If your actions cause people to die (American citizens in particular), then you should be held liable for that in some manner. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see how that is going to happen to these people.

Consequences will be born by the troops in harms way. Not the most coherent argument I have ever made but my point was while these people may stand by their rights to protest the protest itself will cost lives....

Oliver Wendel Holmes would chastise me for bringing him up in a improper manner but the point I was trying to make still stands. They can exercise the right, just expect consequence born on the backs of our children, wives, and husbands at war...

 

[Wardawg1001]

Consequences will be born by the troops in harms way. Not the most coherent argument I have ever made but my point was while these people may stand by their rights to protest the protest itself will cost lives....

Oliver Wendel Holmes would chastise me for bringing him up in a improper manner but the point I was trying to make still stands. They can exercise the right, just expect consequence born on the backs of our children, wives, and husbands at war...

Well thats exactly the problem isn't it? It seems to me like free speech only works when people are held accountable, and specifically the people responsible (book burners) for a particular event (soldiers dying) are held accountable, and not just whoever happens to be affected by it (dead soldiers and their families). When you have this situation where a group of people decides to burn holy books with the knowledge that they are going to incite protests, riots and possibly violent reactions against Americans, and they aren't going to suffer any consequences for it, they have crossed a line. What do we do about it? Hell if I know. I do agree that forcibly stopping them from doing it isn't the way to go, but I don't think that they should be allowed to do something like this without consequences simply on the grounds that they are expressing their freedom of speech.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Consequences will be born by the troops in harms way. Not the most coherent argument I have ever made but my point was while these people may stand by their rights to protest the protest itself will cost lives....

Oliver Wendel Holmes would chastise me for bringing him up in a improper manner but the point I was trying to make still stands. They can exercise the right, just expect consequence born on the backs of our children, wives, and husbands at war...

So if muslims are offended by women in West wearing bathing suits or widows having sex after their husband have just recently died and these women not being stoned to death, or anything else they may deem "offensive" to Islam we should appease them on the false notion that we are going to save the lives of our troops?

As if these idiots don't already have 1001 fake reasons to blow themselves up? Should we shut down Viacom and Comedy Central and cancel South Park for their airing of the episode which offended them? How many soldiers died as a result of that episode? We know one guy was attempting to blow up Viacom's offices in Time Square. I guess we need to live in fear of how we might offend Islam and Muslims across the world.

Really if its truly gotten to this point in this nation then maybe the West is doomed to be conquered. Our ideals and society destroyed and undermined from within by cowards.

 

[Zebo]

This cream puff is defending us against radical Islam and you wonder why war is still going on 8 years later?

Fail.

PS might want to brush up on oath you took too,

"I, David Patreus,, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, in the grade of General do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."


Start reading at Amendment One.

 

[Wardawg1001]

So if muslims are offended by women in West wearing bathing suits or widows having sex after their husband have just recently died and these women not being stoned to death, or anything else they may deem "offensive" to Islam we should appease them on the false notion that we are going to save the lives of our troops?

As if these idiots don't already have 1001 fake reasons to blow themselves up? Should we shut down Viacom and Comedy Central and cancel South Park for their airing of the episode which offended them? How many soldiers died as a result of that episode? We know one guy was attempting to blow up Viacom's offices in Time Square. I guess we need to live in fear of how we might offend Islam and Muslims across the world.

Really if its truly gotten to this point in this nation then maybe the West is doomed to be conquered. Our ideals and society destroyed and undermined from within by cowards.

Not performing useless displays of unjustified hatred at a massive group of people with a (relatively) small extremist faction != giving up our freedoms and living in fear to appease Islam.

I think it was already discussed earlier in this thread (or one of the others on this topic) the difference between this issue and the South Park situation.

 

[manimal]

So if muslims are offended by women in West wearing bathing suits or widows having sex after their husband have just recently died and these women not being stoned to death, or anything else they may deem "offensive" to Islam we should appease them on the false notion that we are going to save the lives of our troops?

As if these idiots don't already have 1001 fake reasons to blow themselves up? Should we shut down Viacom and Comedy Central and cancel South Park for their airing of the episode which offended them? How many soldiers died as a result of that episode? We know one guy was attempting to blow up Viacom's offices in Time Square. I guess we need to live in fear of how we might offend Islam and Muslims across the world.

Really if its truly gotten to this point in this nation then maybe the West is doomed to be conquered. Our ideals and society destroyed and undermined from within by cowards.

If a child is holding a revolver pointed at you do you yell at the child or do you say calming words?

If we lower ourselves to the levels of the extremists abroad we simply create more extremism and another generation of hatred.


Moral equivalency leads to eye for an eye, eye for an eye leads to blindness...

 

[DucatiMonster696]

If a child is holding a revolver pointed at you do you yell at the child or do you say calming words?

If we lower ourselves to the levels of the extremists abroad we simply create more extremism and another generation of hatred.

Basically you want us to bend over backwards to appease Muslims because it offends them. Of course if something is done which OFFENDS US well we should take it up the ass?

Sorry that bird doesn't fly. If Muslims can offend and incite folks by building a mosque near ground zero in NYC then this guy can burn as many Korans as he likes and offend and incite people who don't even live in this country. Your flawed reasoning leads to trampling of other peoples rights in a vain attempt to appease people who hate everything in Western civilization.

Moral equivalency leads to eye for an eye, eye for an eye leads to blindness...

Of course you have no concept of the original moral intent of that story which is restraint. Some one takes a loaf of bread then they pay back a loaf of bread no more, no less. Burning a book compared to other actions Muslims have taken against those of other religions or no religion is pretty damn restrained.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Not performing useless displays of unjustified hatred at a massive group of people with a (relatively) small extremist faction != giving up our freedoms and living in fear to appease Islam.

I think it was already discussed earlier in this thread (or one of the others on this topic) the difference between this issue and the South Park situation.

And the point was also made that satire is not designed to be "Safe" humor and in many cases its designed to offend (Hence the Time Square bomber) so your point is moot. Or did we forget that event already?

 

[Zebo]

Once again you make assumptions based on what you wanted to hear...

Most of us were saying that tolerance and religious freedom were not situational. Its the same as my belief that burning these books in florida is an exercise in religious freedom. The problem is these freedoms do have consequences.

The consequence is we are currently in a powder keg situation. Do you really want to throw gasoline onto the fire?

I can also exercise my freedom to oppose such action and lay out a argument why its bad.

Its the above reference to screaming fire in a movie theater... you can exercise that right, just be prepared for the consequence..

You can support the troops or you can put them in harms way in a feeble attempt at teaching someone a lesson...

The moral equivalency canard does not matter in these cases. We can choose to take the high ground or become the very thing we are fighting against...

First Amendment was put in there to defend unpopular political speech not fires in theaters. Equivalence is not found. If you're afraid to defend your rights and belief system...that's okay cowards are a dime a dozen we got warriors in and out of uniform who will. Cowards die a thousand deaths the valiant just one. If history has taught one thing it's appeasement never works Get over it. The more bloody and forceful it is sooner it's over and we can get on with life again.

*Some will say Z you're no different than AQ, indeed, I agree. War is just another form of politics. To the Victor sets the tone, mores and atmospherics. One day you all will need to decide whether you cotton to Islam/Sharia or the Constitution and Enlightenment. There will be no wiggle room or compromise. I prefer the latter and thus will fight for it. And that includes their Mosque and the right to burn Qu'ran.

 

[Jaskalas]

If history has taught one thing it's appeasement never works Get over it. The more bloody and forceful it is sooner it's over and we can get on with life again.

Which side is the more bloody and forceful? We're afraid to burn books.... afraid to offend under threat of death.

 

[Zebo]

Which side is the more bloody and forceful? We're afraid to burn books.... afraid to offend under threat of death.

Religion of Peace, Believe it or else.

 

[Zebo]

what is a person who is accepting the enemy's world-view and perspective, and working to accommodate it, namely don't insult Islam or else?

Maybe he's just being "practical" but it's a disgusting joke.

Mr. Petraeus would do better to tell the Afghans that in America we have freedom of speech and expression and that we put up with it without trying to kill those saying things we don't like, rather than try and shut up our people. He needs to take off that uniform. Hence Mr.

 

[coreyb]

god america is turning into a giant vagina. who cares about offending people? especially these crazy, barbaric, 3rd world countries? they've already formed their opinions on the west so might as well go along with it! FUCK EM!

 

[Zebo]

god america is turning into a giant vagina. who cares about offending people? especially these crazy, barbaric, 3rd world countries? they've already formed their opinions on the west so might as well go along with it! FUCK EM!

Muslim fanatics in Afghanistan are dictating not only what we can do in our own country, But on our own private property. And with the assistance of our own military. And our Liberals. It's sickening and sad.

Then you got this "general" blaming the victim saying they will attack troops more and blaming free speech rather than fundi fanatics who don't care what you say their goal is to kill as many American troops as possible and has been for 8 long years.

Same General who puts men in unnecessary harms way on the street with unchambered weapons, no night raids, and very restrictive ROEs singing Kumbya instead of kill people and break things which they were trained to.

Triple fail. I feel sorry for our men in uniform led by these fools.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Sorry that bird doesn't fly. If Muslims can offend and incite folks by building a mosque near ground zero in NYC then this guy can burn as many Korans as he likes and offend and incite people who don't even live in this country. Your flawed reasoning leads to trampling of other peoples rights in a vain attempt to appease people who hate everything in Western civilization.

If you think there is a valid comparision between trying to stop the community center being built and burning a bunch of religious book, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[feralkid]

god america is turning into a giant vagina. who cares about offending people? especially these crazy, barbaric, 3rd world countries? they've already formed their opinions on the west so might as well go along with it! FUCK EM!

That makes sense.

Up to a point.

The point at which we stopped being ignorant children.

 

[LumbergTech]

Which side is the more bloody and forceful? We're afraid to burn books.... afraid to offend under threat of death.

afraid to burn books? it is an idiotic way to handle a problem

 

[spacejamz]

afraid to burn books? it is an idiotic way to handle a problem

Muslims burn flags all the time...guess that makes all of them are idiots too...why is it okay for them to burn symbols but they do not want others to do the same? Do they think that they are the only ones allowed to criticize and protest? Why should they get special treatment and the rest of the world cannot?

 

[Jaskalas]

afraid to burn books? it is an idiotic way to handle a problem

You want a problem handled? Bring our soldiers home.

 

[LumbergTech]

Muslims burn flags all the time...guess that makes all of them are idiots too...why is it okay for them to burn symbols but they do not want others to do the same? Do they think that they are the only ones allowed to criticize and protest? Why should they get special treatment and the rest of the world cannot?

Who said that was the case? Its a dumb protest to burn books.