Gen. David Petraeus says the burning of Koran would ...

[Infohawk]

Where are all the who are against the mosque near ground zero condemning this action?
Sure its those people's legal right to burn the korans, but its highly insensitive. Where is glen beck, sarah palin and many of those kinds of people speaking out against this burning?

It is insensitive.

Where are all the liberals speaking out in favor of freedom of expression? (Two can play at your game.)

 

[Zebo]

I advocated the Mosque at so called ground ZERO - but then I believe in freedom, the constitution - the most perfect document in the history of man to the tune it's followed, so long as you don't fuck with innocents or me.

PS come up with something better and I'll change my mind. 1st or 7th century mores will not do it, sorry I've evolved. Have you?

If you're worried about insensitivity, apathy, ultimately it is a recipe for surrender. Someday, someone, will go after what you cherish and none will be left to defend. Don't believe me? Take a look at secular and religious minorities, gays or women in these people countries you are so afraid to offend.

 

[Generator]

Funny how this loon in Florida has taken this country hostage in a way. This whole week has and will be him counting down, strapped with a religious bomb. This is a really, really dangerous situation. Lets all hope this Pastor is a coward we need him to be and is just looking for his 15 minutes.

 

[Zebo]

Would we care if it wernt for accident of geology?

Read oil.

 

[geno]

Where are all the who are against the mosque near ground zero condemning this action?
Sure its those people's legal right to burn the korans, but its highly insensitive. Where is glen beck, sarah palin and many of those kinds of people speaking out against this burning?

FYI Palin did speak out against the book burning.

 

[geno]

It is insensitive.

Where are all the liberals speaking out in favor of freedom of expression? (Two can play at your game.)

There's no denying this idiot has the right to burn whatever book he pleases, it's a matter of if he should. You can't deny he has the right, to do so is denying what this country was built upon.

 

[Zebo]

There's no denying this idiot has the right to burn whatever book he pleases, it's a matter of if he should. You can't deny he has the right, to do so is denying what this country was built upon.

Sad. Instead of standing for the freedom of expression and teaching about American values, you are reinforcing the idea that violent intimidation works. you should apply to carry Petraeus' brief case.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Just checking in and I must say, the thread has gone exactly how I thought it would. Again, what do you all propose?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, it is about freedom of expression and while the actions of the church might be wrong/insensitive, they have every right to say it or do it. The exact same reasoning applies to the mosque near ground zero -- poor taste? Yes. Should they have the right to purchase the property and build the mosque? Absolutely.

I haven't read every post, but as I glanced through it, I did notice at least one mention of this possibly being considered a "hate crime." See, my remark about some people wanting this kind of thing banned wasn't so much off the mark, was it? I know my AT P&N pretty well.

I think Zebo has nicely summed up the point I was trying to make but I didn't phrase it as well. Let me summarize:

1. Petraeus' job is to defend the Constitution. As Zebo states, instead of trying to soothe feelings, he should be reminding people over there that in the US, we enjoy freedom of speech and that no one is killed or executed for doing these kinds of things.
2. Regardless of what Petraeus says (either "it is wrong for them to do that!" or "we enjoy freedom of speech so tough!"), it won't make a damn bit of difference. As Zebo mentioned, the fundie Islamacists want us gone/dead and no words are going to change that.
3. As I mentioned in my initial post, I have trouble reconciling the fact that our military is fighting for our freedoms but in this instance, isn't publicly defending them.
4. We're fighting people who threaten death on anyone portraying Mohammed in a slightly negative light -- or heck, portraying him at all (remember the cartoon incident)? If you keep saying things like "Well, you shouldn't do that!" every time something comes up that offends Muslims, how long before you are basically living in a society exactly like theirs?

As a side note, Petraeus is an exceptionally smart man and he knows that explaining freedom of speech won't make a damn bit of difference to the people there; he is hoping that he can use other tactics to soothe their feelings. It won't work.

 

[Zebo]

4. We're fighting people who threaten death on anyone portraying Mohammed in a slightly negative light -- or heck, portraying him at all (remember the cartoon incident)? If you keep saying things like "Well, you shouldn't do that!" every time something comes up that offends Muslims, how long before you are basically living in a society exactly like theirs?

As a side note, Petraeus is an exceptionally smart man and he knows that explaining freedom of speech won't make a damn bit of difference to the people there; he is hoping that he can use other tactics to soothe their feelings. It won't work.

This is good. Recipe for surrender.


Fail. Smart is as smart does. 8 years of fail and 4500 men later against rag tag militias is not smart. Sherman was smart, Eisenhower was smart this fool is a careerist I would not trust to drive a bus I was riding.

And worse he's dangerous. Leaders set tone. He's message is capitulate your constitutional rights. I have no use for such a smart man,

The West conquered the world 100 yrs ago with much less sophisticated weaponry comparatively and can't even deal with some fundi today, fail.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

This is good. Recipe for surrender.


Fail. Smart is as smart does. 8 years of fail and 4500 men later is not smart when we have SSBN's cruising around. Sherman was smart, Eisenhower was smart this fool is a careerist I would not trust to drive a bus I was riding.

Had we taken the kid gloves off at Tora Bora, none of this would be necessary.

 

[CKent]

Right, burning the koran would incite muslims who are otherwise thrilled at American military operations in their shithole countries...

We're talking about people who marry prepubescent children and stone women to death for leaving their residence without a male owner, all under the protection of sharia law. We seriously need to stop pretending muslims are just like us, it's called projection and it's something we do when we don't know about others but are too lazy to learn. It's a lumbering, mouldering elephant in the room and it's long past time to acknowledge it.

 

[geno]

Sad. Instead of standing for the freedom of expression and teaching about American values, you are reinforcing the idea that violent intimidation works. you should apply to carry Petraeus' brief case.

Are you replying to the right post? Where did I state whether he should or shouldn't? My post focused on the fact that I believe it's not even disputable whether or not this pastor is allowed to do what he intends - that's it, so I have absolutely no clue where you got the bolded part, in fact, what I said is in direct contrast to the above bolded text.

 

[cubby1223]

This story is just fucking weird.

If we're going to analyze what is a recruitment tool for Al Queda, which of these two is more likely to recruit more:

(1) a very small group of people burning Korans
(2) the leaders of the United States terrified of the actions of this very small group who really aren't doing anything all too significant

The second seems to me to be the much worse situation. Can't we ever portray a position of strength in this country from our "leaders"?

 

[Rainsford]

This story is just fucking weird.

If we're going to analyze what is a recruitment tool for Al Queda, which of these two is more likely to recruit more:

(1) a very small group of people burning Korans
(2) the leaders of the United States terrified of the actions of this very small group who really aren't doing anything all too significant

The second seems to me to be the much worse situation. Can't we ever portray a position of strength in this country from our "leaders"?

Except either our leaders (and everyone else) can either speak out against it, or appear to support it. And then (1) becomes the entire United States burning Korans, which seems like a pretty good recruitment tool to me.

 

[cubby1223]

Except either our leaders (and everyone else) can either speak out against it, or appear to support it. And then (1) becomes the entire United States burning Korans, which seems like a pretty good recruitment tool to me.

Are you suggesting that unless Obama and Co. come out against this proposed burning, the entire country will suddenly join in?

They can ignore it, which is what I think the proper thing should be to do.
Or they can speak against it without projecting fear of repercussions.


Friends of mine used to burn bibles all the time, I didn't do it but it didn't bother me. This guy wants to burn a Koran, I don't fucking care. I do not believe this event will cause the mayhem our leaders are suggesting. Will they burn it will they not? By now the physical act of burning the wood & ink has got to be so trivial it doesn't matter. If someone in Afghanistan is going to get pissed off, he is already pissed off, do you think such a person will suddenly "back down" if these books end up not burned? He probably doesn't even give a fuck either, if he hates America and wants to kill someone because of it, then he hates America and wants to kill someone because of it, this event is trivial.

 

[manimal]

Muslims are still talking about Abu Graib-sic-and will for the next century. If you cant see this for what it is then you have no idea how propaganda works......


Again I say in a powder keg situation you don't go throwing matches just because you can. I am not advocating any response by extremists but giving them more ammunition to recruit ignorants to blow themselves up just gets us mired into an even bigger quagmire.

Sarah Palin came out against the book burning so it must be wrong right....

What we need as a nation is to concentrate on an exit strategy in the middle east. Making that more diffucilt in the name of free speech is a piss poor way to do it. We can take the high road or we can fight an international holy war.... I choose peace thank you very much...

 

[cubby1223]

Muslims are still talking about Abu Graib-sic-and will for the next century. If you cant see this for what it is then you have no idea how propaganda works......


Again I say in a powder keg situation you don't go throwing matches just because you can. I am not advocating any response by extremists but giving them more ammunition to recruit ignorants to blow themselves up just gets us mired into an even bigger quagmire.

Sarah Palin came out against the book burning so it must be wrong right....

What we need as a nation is to concentrate on an exit strategy in the middle east. Making that more diffucilt in the name of free speech is a piss poor way to do it. We can take the high road or we can fight an international holy war.... I choose peace thank you very much...

You're viewing this nation more like a singular collective than diverse free-thinking individuals. The attention comes from the media. The attention comes from this event sparking the interest and response of the highest levels of our government. Without all that, these guys just burn their books, and the rest of the world wakes up the next day the same as the previous.

If you want to forever live your life constrained to how a radical, irrational element of the world dictates you to live, then go right ahead and be that.

 

[Jaskalas]

If you want to forever live your life constrained to how a radical, irrational element of the world dictates you to live, then go right ahead and be that.

If they merely stopped there then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No cubby1223, this is about them telling us to live OUR lives constrained to how a radical, irrational element of the world dictates.

 

[mmntech]

Some backwater hick with a handful of followers threats to burn a book. and thousands of people threaten immediate violent retaliation against innocents. Who's the bigger idiot.

 

[Infohawk]

There's no denying this idiot has the right to burn whatever book he pleases, it's a matter of if he should. You can't deny he has the right, to do so is denying what this country was built upon.

That's what people were saying about the mosque.

Anyway, no the issue is not whether he should. Almost everyone agrees it's a waste of time to burn books. The question is whether a general should be jumping in and whether people take into consideration the threats of violent muslims.

 

[werepossum]

Some backwater hick with a handful of followers threats to burn a book. and thousands of people threaten immediate violent retaliation against innocents. Who's the bigger idiot.

The Islamists had no problems recruiting for 9/11, and I highly doubt that this will materially affect their recruiting in the future. They have no more need of propaganda than did the Nazis.

This situation is exactly like that of the imam's victory mosque, people exercising their undeniable rights to be insensitive douches. Sensible people should be decrying both whilst supporting the rights of both to do so.

I don't know if this has been posted, but Drudge relinked a 2009 article where the military admitted that it confiscated and burned Bibles in Afghanistan. I have a serious (though platonic) mancrush on Petraeus, but if we are to burn our own holy books whilst refusing to do the same with Islam's then the terrorists are winning by establishing Islam as the only religion worth honoring. http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/us.military.bibles.burned/

 

[her209]

What? That is a total non sequitur. It's a given that he knows the church has a right to burn the Koran, just like everybody else with any intelligence. What does that have to do with the statement that burning the Koran will endanger the troops by furthering the enemy's argument that we're in a religious war with all of Islam?

You don't see how Patraeus and company coming out in favor of Quran burning furthers the perception that Afghanistan and Iraq were wars against Islam and not wars against Muslim extremists?

 

[woolfe9999]

FYI Palin did speak out against the book burning.

To her credit, she did. However, she did so by comparing the Koran burning to building the Mosque, arguing that the two are equivalent, a highly questionable comparison, and one which suggests that she is unable to simply condemn the Koran burning without also taking a pot shot a Muslims in the same breath.

- wolf

 

[Vonkhan]

The pastor has the RIGHT to burn Korans guaranteed to him by the US constitution.

As a Muslim, the pastor's actions are very offensive. However, he is but one retard with 50 others behind him - the lunatic fringe.

If I were to get so angry over the actions of so few, I'd probably get a heart attack every hour - so I really dgaf.

Enter media - whip whip whip whip whip this s*** up into a frenzy. BAH!

Now, every1s mad wtf!

 

[her209]

It is insensitive.

Where are all the liberals speaking out in favor of freedom of expression? (Two can play at your game.)

I, for one, hopes the Pastor is allowed to exercise his 1st Amendment right (however misguided it may be).