This should be Middle East 101 for smackababy and most others (on and off this forum) who have no clue whatsoever. Also, no big words there or anything, so should be easy to read.
This should be Middle East 101 for smackababy and most others (on and off this forum) who have no clue whatsoever. Also, no big words there or anything, so should be easy to read.
- Aug 4, 2007
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I'm surprised that 5,000+ people protested in Texas for the Pals. no one is covering it in the media...
http://www.mintpressnews.com/5000-texans-march-gaza/194931/
http://www.mintpressnews.com/5000-texans-march-gaza/194931/
It could be 5 million and still won't get coverage in the media. We all know why.
I don't think it's collective punishment because their responses still appear targeted in removing the rockets and tunnels. The latter in particular can have a bigger effect than launching back against the rockets. And while the Indian report showed a mobile tent, I don't know if this is really characteristic of all of the rockets, and I don't know if Israel is aware if it is. This could be more of an evolving strategy due to Israel's retaliation.
And it's not really fair to only look at the rocket strikes in terms of civilian death, completely ignoring injuries, property damage, disruption to daily life and induced fear and stress.
From Israel's point of the view the rationale is probably that if they don't do anything the attacks will increase in frequency and Hamas will learn to become better at it. They could also fear that it will invite other Arab nations to attack. There is a prevalent mindset that the people around them are waiting for the right opportunity to strike and claim all of the land. I'm not saying I think this justifies the retaliations and is worth the damage that causes (both to the Palestinians and the backlash Israel gets), but if you're going to say that they should be smarter than that you could just as well say that they should be smarter than to think that collective punishment is an effective tool.
DigDog
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2011
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i dont deny it. although i used to support the palestinian side of the conflict, i believe it has gone too far - palestine as an entity doesn't exist anymore. it's just a bunch of war-refugees now, living in mud huts n all.
i dont see it feasible to return the palestinian lands to the palestinians. i just dont think *anyone* should support Israel, the US first and foremost, since they are not just a bunch of murderers, but they dont give a toss about the US.
i dont see it feasible to return the palestinian lands to the palestinians. i just dont think *anyone* should support Israel, the US first and foremost, since they are not just a bunch of murderers, but they dont give a toss about the US.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
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So where is Hamas in all this? Are you leaving Hamas out because with Hamas involved what you posted is more bloviation??
But they own the US political system when it comes to their interests. As even pro Israel columnists have lately acknowledged, the US foreign policy when it comes to Middle East is actually domestic policy
5K believe in turning the other cheek no matter what.
Roll over and take a beating.
Majority of people realize that if you go looking for trouble and find it, it is your fault,
Maybe if Texas never existed as a state or had fixed boundaries, and when the Mexicans (who owned parts of Texas and were told by the UN that they could set up a state there) "invaded" they only took part of Texas, and then Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, and Oklahoma fought a series of wars that lost the remainder of Texas to the Mexicans, and then those states disavowed any responsibility for the people that they wanted to rule so badly previously, maybe, just maybe, you're getting close to a helpful analogy.
irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
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Lol genocide. So 2000 casualties out of 1,300,000 people is genocide now? Wow, the Israelis really suck at genocide.
And in your mind any Israeli source that contradicts you is clearly a conspiratorial lie and not to be trusted under any circumstances, conveniently allowing people like you to maintain your world-view. There are legitimate complaints to be voiced against various Israeli actions and policies, and Israel should be held to account.. but people like you continually ruin any chance of that by drinking the Hamas kool-aid and acting like morons.
You're convincing no one by talking about non-existent genocide and conspiracy theories. You're the Open Carry Texas of Palestinian sympathizers. You do more damage to your own cause everywhere you go and every time you speak.
Israel has been blowing up buildings with families in them... that is acceptable? Even when the UN told them 17+ times who is located in that building? I don't think you'd have the balls to say that to someone who has lost someone in that.
- Aug 4, 2007
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political figures all over the world are referring to it as a genocide. stop picking my ass about it.
fidel castro is calling it the palestenian holocaust. oh noes.http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Prot...-against-Palestinian-Holocaust-in-Gaza-370239
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/national/06-Aug-2014/pm-asks-world-to-stop-palestinian-genocide
http://rt.com/news/178220-italy-gaza-trial-israel/
http://www.newsweek.com/mandelas-party-compares-israeli-strikes-holocaust-258327
irishScott
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2006
- 21,562
- 3
- 0
political figures all over the world are referring to it as a genocide. stop picking my ass about it.
http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Prot...-against-Palestinian-Holocaust-in-Gaza-370239
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/national/06-Aug-2014/pm-asks-world-to-stop-palestinian-genocide
http://rt.com/news/178220-italy-gaza-trial-israel/
http://www.newsweek.com/mandelas-party-compares-israeli-strikes-holocaust-258327
Political figures all over the world also deny the holocaust. So what? You've got some negligible backing from 3rd world political figures as justification? Good for you!
And lol at the Italians calling for an "Israeli Nurembourg". Never mind the laughable comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany, there's this little gem.
So the entire government of Israel and it's "accomplices", which includes the EU and US, should be brought to a Nurember-style trial over stuff that they haven't done yet. Lovely!
Yeah, if these are the kind of people you fill your echo chamber with I can see where your viewpoints come from.
DigDog
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2011
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Hamas wouldn't be a problem if you didn't steal their land. Or kill their children. Or keep them prisoners.
The hatred for Israel came when Israel started stealing land, killing children . etc. you know the story.
Oh wait maybe you don't.
"Palestine always belonged to the Jews, but the evil Palestinians took it over and now Israel has its sweet revenge".
Except for the part that this is a fantasy, all good.
The problem is that this is simply not true. The european Jews never owned any part of palestine, anymore than the British own Boston, or the Romans own Londinium. They have always been a religious minority in the area and this is speaking of ancient times, not even medieval.
After WWII pressure groups of Jews (backed by very wealthy individuals and groups) arranged for Palestine to be assigned to them .. you'd figure one would at least take the time to read wikipedia on this subject if you're gonna post in a Israel_palestine conflict thread .. as a land they could live in (since they did not have a homeland);
Palestine at the time was Arabic, inhabited by - you'll never believe it - Palestinians.
Note that (really, go read it) even before the land was assigned to them there was already an influx of money in the territory destined to the aquirement of land where the Jews could live.
Now, this is pretty much teh same situation as any other "modern country invades poor bastards" since the palestinians were the poorest, most destitute people of the region, and they were easy to buy out.
Also, nobody in the UN was paying attention to the palestininas again, because they didn't matter to the US when compared with the enormous wealth and influence of the jewish families.
TLDR:
1) the land that was "assigned" to the jews belonged to someone else.
2) after the "assigning", jews broke every rule in the book with enormous ferocity.
Note that a MAJOR point in the fuckup-factor we are experiencing today comes from assigning palestine to the jews, simply because you are placing a strongly religious group in the midst of a region with opposing strong religious beliefs.
Even the real allies of the US, such as the UAE (who are allied with the US because they got money, and like bling instead of sand) have a problem with Jews being placed in their region, not because they are jews, but because its *their* land.
We've gone there and we've shat all over their customs and their sovereignity, and now they are pissed off. And to add to that, these aren't exactly beacons of intellect, which makes them even easier to piss off.
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dainthomas
Lifer
- Dec 7, 2004
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Lol so wrong it's hilarious. Hatred for Israel came before it even existed. Then when they got their asses kicked after attacking, they decided the suicide bomber/human shield route was the way to victory. Very wrong for them. And it's only been sixty years of kid gloves on Israel's part that gives Hamas the idea that they have a chance.
halik
Lifer
- Oct 10, 2000
- 25,696
- 1
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Err you do realise all of them have guns, and thus are showing restraint by retreating? It's not exactly difficult to mow down a crowd of a 50 in a tight alley between 10 guys with automatic .223 rifles...
Therefore you disagree with my own and others' condemnation of statements to "kill/sterilize all Palestinians" and of my reactions being hyperbole.
So davmat787, rather than diversionary personal attacks against myself, you have an another opportunity to define what those quotations mean to you, law, and morality.
For the moment, I will fairly assume that you are choosing to attack me in a diversionary defence of unequivical incitements to terrorism and genocide.
dainthomas
Lifer
- Dec 7, 2004
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How many houses in the West Bank (not launching rockets) has Israel bombed recently? I'll wait.
dainthomas
Lifer
- Dec 7, 2004
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You seriously think there would be anything left of Gaza or the West Bank if Israel really wanted them all gone?You call 60 years of indiscriminate killing wearing kid gloves?
Some pretty serious distortions in your post DigDog..
What was the religious majority in the region currently known as Israel and Palestine in ancient times? For at least a thousand years before the Roman empire exiled them in 70 AD the rough area was dominated by ancient Jews.
That's a pretty misleading timeline. What really happened is this: after WW1 European powers carved up most of the Ottoman empire into quasi-colonial states, with Britain controlling Palestine. Shortly thereafter (1917) Britain made the Balfour Declaration which determine that a Zionist homeland was to be established in the region. This was however in addition to a separate private agreement of a Hashemite kingdom made to the Arabs. From this point on Jews migrated to Palestine and for the most part either purchased land from Arabs or developed land in uninhabited regions. There were some violent conflicts between both parties but it didn't consist of very much conquering or wholesale driving anyone off of land. When the UN partition was drawn up after WWII it was largely attempting to encapsulate existing settlements. Which is why if you look at a map of it the division lines are so weird. The point is, Europe didn't simply dump Jews into someone else's country after WWII out of holocaust guilt, there were already hundreds of thousands of Jews in the region by that time. And there was a serious question of what to do to stabilize the region, since Britain now wanted to wash their hands of it and the increasing hostilities there.
The Palestinians and other Arab regions were not happy with the UN partition since they had been promised the region. But it didn't consist of much going in and stealing the land because the local people hadn't ever governed that land - the UN partition would have been the first local autonomous Palestinian region. I probably don't have to say anything about what happened since then.
Because effectively the land was already assigned to them by the British in a region that the British was laying claim to. And that "influx of money" was from the Jewish settlers buying plots of land from the native people. That "influx" was a long process of people moving there, but hardly in a fashion that would one would normally call an invasion. They were hardly driving people out at gunpoint. That didn't really happen until the war.
I really don't understand why people call Israel the colonial evil on this and tend to leave out the British people who colonized the area (for all intents and purposes) in the first place. I'm not saying either side had a right to this but the fact is that regardless of who let it happen a large Jewish population in the region was a real situation before Israel was a state.
Believing the conflict is over strong religion on both sides is missing a ton of the reality of the situation (and the Israeli majority that isn't actually strongly religious). Moderate Palestinians (ie, not Hamas or supporters) realize this as well.
So you think even countries as far removed geographically as the UAE consider Palestine their land too?
Egypt and Jordan wanted Palestine to be their land for a while. In the end they decided to accept borders that didn't include it and now they don't want them so much. And Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and others (outside of Jordan) don't even want to grant Palestinians citizenship, yet you think they consider Palestine their land? Why, because they're all Arabs? Maybe groups like ISIS have this mentality, but a lot of other Arab countries have grown and realized that a pan-Arab state is maybe not such a great idea.
We've gone there and we've shat all over their customs and their sovereignity, and now they are pissed off. And to add to that, these aren't exactly beacons of intellect, which makes them even easier to piss off.[/QUOTE]
What was the religious majority in the region currently known as Israel and Palestine in ancient times? For at least a thousand years before the Roman empire exiled them in 70 AD the rough area was dominated by ancient Jews.
That's a pretty misleading timeline. What really happened is this: after WW1 European powers carved up most of the Ottoman empire into quasi-colonial states, with Britain controlling Palestine. Shortly thereafter (1917) Britain made the Balfour Declaration which determine that a Zionist homeland was to be established in the region. This was however in addition to a separate private agreement of a Hashemite kingdom made to the Arabs. From this point on Jews migrated to Palestine and for the most part either purchased land from Arabs or developed land in uninhabited regions. There were some violent conflicts between both parties but it didn't consist of very much conquering or wholesale driving anyone off of land. When the UN partition was drawn up after WWII it was largely attempting to encapsulate existing settlements. Which is why if you look at a map of it the division lines are so weird. The point is, Europe didn't simply dump Jews into someone else's country after WWII out of holocaust guilt, there were already hundreds of thousands of Jews in the region by that time. And there was a serious question of what to do to stabilize the region, since Britain now wanted to wash their hands of it and the increasing hostilities there.
The Palestinians and other Arab regions were not happy with the UN partition since they had been promised the region. But it didn't consist of much going in and stealing the land because the local people hadn't ever governed that land - the UN partition would have been the first local autonomous Palestinian region. I probably don't have to say anything about what happened since then.
Because effectively the land was already assigned to them by the British in a region that the British was laying claim to. And that "influx of money" was from the Jewish settlers buying plots of land from the native people. That "influx" was a long process of people moving there, but hardly in a fashion that would one would normally call an invasion. They were hardly driving people out at gunpoint. That didn't really happen until the war.
I really don't understand why people call Israel the colonial evil on this and tend to leave out the British people who colonized the area (for all intents and purposes) in the first place. I'm not saying either side had a right to this but the fact is that regardless of who let it happen a large Jewish population in the region was a real situation before Israel was a state.
Believing the conflict is over strong religion on both sides is missing a ton of the reality of the situation (and the Israeli majority that isn't actually strongly religious). Moderate Palestinians (ie, not Hamas or supporters) realize this as well.
So you think even countries as far removed geographically as the UAE consider Palestine their land too?
Egypt and Jordan wanted Palestine to be their land for a while. In the end they decided to accept borders that didn't include it and now they don't want them so much. And Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and others (outside of Jordan) don't even want to grant Palestinians citizenship, yet you think they consider Palestine their land? Why, because they're all Arabs? Maybe groups like ISIS have this mentality, but a lot of other Arab countries have grown and realized that a pan-Arab state is maybe not such a great idea.
We've gone there and we've shat all over their customs and their sovereignity, and now they are pissed off. And to add to that, these aren't exactly beacons of intellect, which makes them even easier to piss off.[/QUOTE]
DigDog
Lifer
- Jun 3, 2011
- 14,788
- 3,076
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Arabs
by several different tribes which we ignorantly refer to as jews, while what we know as jews today were perhaps 1/6th of the population. Mostly they were Jahiliyya, or as you would call them today, Muslims.
Jews did in fact migrate to palestine, which was the land where the PALESTINIANS lived.
You decide to cut out 2.000 years of history. Jews had already been expelled long since.
You have got to understand that the Jews's claim to rights doesn't extend any closer than 2k years back. They claim Palestine was theirs because in roman times some of them called that their home land.
Some jews today claim New York as their home land, it will be funny when they kick out the americans in another few hundred years.
Now you are talking about WW2, not WW1, yet you seamlessly went from one to the other. google: "a land without a people for a people without a land" and see what hits you get; specifically they were talking about Syria. Its use in reference to palestine comes just after WW2.
Yep, let's not dwell on the fact that the jew's considered 6 different nations as their "homeland". So much for historical right.
So because there were some jews there, it belongs to them?
newsflash: there's jews EVERYWHERE.
The point is, who authorized the assignement of palestinian lands to the jews? Were the palestinians consulted before this happened?
No, and teh reason is that palestinians lived in a quasi-medieval society, while jews were rich and influential.
So the world turns.
Jews stealing palestine isn't anything different from the american colonists massacre of the indians. Now, it's kinda too late to rectify that mistake, isn't it?
And in the same way it's too late to stop Israel and the massacre of the palestinians because the palestinians are worthless - they dont have an army, they dont have money, they dont have technology, education or leverage.
But don't give me that "poor suffering people just defending themselves" crap because they invaded palestine, gave zero fucks about the natives, and butchered them.
they already lived there, and had for millennia.
again, mounds of BS.
yes, it consisted of stealing their land.
yes, they did govern their land. maybe not in the swag way that the jews do now but they did.
the UN blah blah just because nobody knew who the palestinians were in 1945 doesnt mean they weren't there; you don't need UN recognition to exist as a people.
the Zion movement obviously means nothing to you.
And yet wikipedia is so easy to find.
the brits didnt massacre technologically inferior races...
well, maybe they did. but at least they didnt kill the women and children.
its a big difference, you know.
the conflict is NOT about religion, it is about occupation.
religion is an issue with the neighboring countries because - i have no idea why - they hate the jews personally; also thats why the jews got expelled from the middle east, and just about every nation that exists or has existed.
google: persecution of the jews , or any other assortment of keywords.
its late, you are tired, and it's ok if you completely failed to read what i wrote.
ofc not. the palestinians are the rumenians of the arab world. but there's a big difference between an Arab population of goat farmers, and a organized, undesired mass-migration of jews in Arab territory aimed at creating a militaristic state.
Arabs HATE the jews. They have always hated them (god knows why). Do you think palestine was full of happy jews during the crusades, or where they constantly subject of special restrictory laws for how much they were hated?
again, wikipedia should help you here.
The end issue with Israelis is that they think it's morally OK to do what they do; i'm sure it makes sense from a certain point of view, hey, if i'd have the chance to steal a billion dollars i would, and f* the morals.
But from OUR point of view, we have to see things as they are. They wanted the land, they were stronger, they took it. They stopped at nothing and their only interest is Israel, and this is shared by just about every jew, regardless of what country they were born in, or live in, because for some weird reason they always have to act like foreigners.
I'm glad the Irish have told them off. We should all join in to tell them what is what. They've already destroyed the palestinians so there's nothing to salvage there, but anyone who trusts - or worse, backs - Israel is gonna have a bad surprise.
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DominionSeraph
Diamond Member
- Jul 22, 2009
- 8,386
- 32
- 91
You're the one holding the Palestinian supremacist position, and are throwing a fit that not everyone else agrees with the extermination of the Jews. The rest of us are merely saying that the Jews have the right to self-defense. Self-defense stops when your life is no longer being threatened, so it's up to the Palestinians when it's over.
"The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war."
- Benjamin Netanyahu
The Palestinians believe that if they keep murdering Jews that eventually they will be granted a Jewless Palestine. They will not put down their arms, thus Israel must take steps to defend herself. This situation will not change until the Palestinians give up their fantasies of being the next Hitler.
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DominionSeraph
Diamond Member
- Jul 22, 2009
- 8,386
- 32
- 91
If they opened fire you would call them murderers. They do not and you call them cowards. And you do not see that all you want to do is insult Israelis? That you will excuse any violence against them?
You are an anti-Semite.
zanejohnson
Diamond Member
- Nov 29, 2002
- 7,054
- 17
- 81
it wouldnt matter if the people were brown, green, blue, pink of orange.
why can't people understand this..`
why can't people understand this..`
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