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Gays and Their Damn Wedding Cakes! 12/5 for SCOTUS Arguments

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Personally, I would hope things like this get worked out by online reviews, protests, word of mouth, etc. Although, I don't think this should exempt them from any anti discrimination laws. Providing a cake is not violating religious practice. Marrying the couple would be different. This is not analagous to Hobby Lobby because the law would require Hobby Lobby to pay for treatments that would allow an egg to be fertilized but not implanted.
Definitely the same as hobby lobby. The question is if your religious beliefs make you exempt from generally applicable laws. Hobby Lobby said yes.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
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Definitely the same as hobby lobby. The question is if your religious beliefs make you exempt from generally applicable laws. Hobby Lobby said yes.
Not to be disagreeable, but there are subtle differences. Hobby didn't want to pay for doing something they thought was wrong - there were religious and financial support for "those people" concerns, they disagreed with that part of the ACA. Cakes say they don't want to provide services equally to all their customers - there is only a religious concern about "those people," they disagree with Colorado law.

Justifications for intolerance toward the desire not to conceive but still have sex. Hmmm, it's legal now. Gays (mostly) don't want to conceive either. They just don't want to have to shop around for their damn cake! :)

If you want employer-covered contraceptive services, work somewhere else! If you want a cake for your gay wedding...to be continued. In both cases it boils down to "sexual immorality." 2017 or 1920? Edit: I know, but where does it stop? In 2021 can I marry my phone?
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Once you say that businesses can disregard laws that they claim to believe are morally wrong, then you have to rule for the baker and far worse characters who will make belief claims of various kind to justify discrimination. Ultimately, it will lead to a very dysfunctional society, but that's conservatism for you.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
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Not to be disagreeable, but there are subtle differences. Hobby didn't want to pay for doing something they thought was wrong - there were religious and financial support for "those people" concerns, they disagreed with that part of the ACA. Cakes say they don't want to provide services equally to all their customers - there is only a religious concern about "those people," they disagree with Colorado law.

Justifications for intolerance toward the desire not to conceive but still have sex. Hmmm, it's legal now. Gays (mostly) don't want to conceive either. They just don't want to have to shop around for their damn cake! :)

If you want employer-covered contraceptive services, work somewhere else! If you want a cake for your gay wedding...to be continued. In both cases it boils down to "sexual immorality." 2017 or 1920? Edit: I know, but where does it stop? In 2021 can I marry my phone?
Next it will be people in polygamous marriage with their frogs and their watches, amirite?!?

If I hire someone to, for example, clean my house, what the fuck business is it what they do with their money? Should I be able to veto them spending their money on alcohol? How about sugar-sweetened soda. Perhaps prohibiting them from purchasing cigarettes is in my purview?

Wait, you mean that is fucking insane and god damn dumb as fuck?

Well, let's apply that simple freedom-based principle to the person's healthcare expenses.

If you are a business that is legally required to provide health insurance to your employee, do you get to veto, say, providing insurance coverage for antibiotics if your employee comes down with chlamydia and gonorrhea cause they're out their fucking up a storm with tinder?

What if your employee is a massive idiot and goes and acquires HIV by having group sex at a known brothel?

What if your employee is an amazing dipshit, is diagnosed with high blood pressure, and chooses to ignore it, causing the employee to go into renal failure, and have a stroke?

Do you get to decide whether they get their antiviral medication, or their life-saving dialysis and thrombolytic therapy, since, like, you disagree morally and religously and like, stuff, with their private behavior?

Get. The. Fuck. Out.
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
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Once you say that businesses can disregard laws that they claim to believe are morally wrong, then you have to rule for the baker and far worse characters who will make belief claims of various kind to justify discrimination. Ultimately, it will lead to a very dysfunctional society, but that's conservatism for you.
Where have we seen this type of behavior before...hmmmm?


I like this one better.
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Definitely the same as hobby lobby. The question is if your religious beliefs make you exempt from generally applicable laws. Hobby Lobby said yes.
Disagree completely. There is a major difference between religious practice and religious morals. One cannot conflict with the law. The other can. We will see what SCOTUS has to say.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,966
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I continue to vote with my wallet, so while Im interested the ruling going along with this case, i simply dont buy things from vendors who choose to push to moral superiority on others....be it customers or employees.

Dont shop at hobby lobby, chik fil a, or anywhere else like that.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Disagree completely. There is a major difference between religious practice and religious morals. One cannot conflict with the law. The other can. We will see what SCOTUS has to say.
In both cases the plaintiff is arguing that complying with the law makes them violate their religious beliefs.
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
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I continue to vote with my wallet, so while Im interested the ruling going along with this case, i simply dont buy things from vendors who choose to push to moral superiority on others....be it customers or employees.
I find businesses that try to curry favor by having a fish symbol or stating that they're christian owned turn my stomach which serves as a red flag for me to avoid them.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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I find businesses that try to curry favor by having a fish symbol or stating that they're christian owned turn my stomach which serves as a red flag for me to avoid them.
They should refrain from that, and let their actions speak for themselves.
 
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nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
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You know Jesus picked up a bullwhip and drove the money changers out of the temple yet organized religion stops at nothing to monetize the gospel at every turn.
US evangelical Chrisitianity is actually Mammon worship, with Mammon all dressed up as Jesus Christ.

In Mammon worship, the adherents don't just worship Mammon. They worship those who Mammon have blessed, i.e. the rich.

 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
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US evangelical Chrisitianity is actually Mammon worship, with Mammon all dressed up as Jesus Christ.

In Mammon worship, the adherents don't just worship Mammon. They worship those who Mammon have blessed, i.e. the rich.

You are very correct sir. Jesus warned that a man cannot worship God and money and they love their money. He also warned that at the time of the end that the church would leave its first love hence the apostasy. Organized religion has been doing this for many years and its become the defacto standard in place of actual Christianity.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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There is a difference between a wedding cake for a gay wedding and selling a gay couple a wedding cake.

If heterosexual parents attempt to buy a cake for their gay child's wedding, and the store refuses, that is refusal to make a specific product, not discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Conversely, if a homosexual couple attempts to buy a cake for their straight child's wedding and the store refuses, that would be discrimination based on sexual orientation (assuming the bakery sells such cakes to non-gay couples).
 
Jan 25, 2011
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There is a difference between a wedding cake for a gay wedding and selling a gay couple a wedding cake.

If heterosexual parents attempt to buy a cake for their gay child's wedding, and the store refuses, that is refusal to make a specific product, not discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Conversely, if a homosexual couple attempts to buy a cake for their straight child's wedding and the store refuses, that would be discrimination based on sexual orientation (assuming the bakery sells such cakes to non-gay couples).
Uh no, not if he would make the same product for a straight couple. At that point his sole motivator in discriminating is the sexual orientation of the participants. I give you no points for this effort.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,690
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Next it will be people in polygamous marriage with their frogs and their watches, amirite?!?

If I hire someone to, for example, clean my house, what the fuck business is it what they do with their money? Should I be able to veto them spending their money on alcohol? How about sugar-sweetened soda. Perhaps prohibiting them from purchasing cigarettes is in my purview?

Wait, you mean that is fucking insane and god damn dumb as fuck?

Well, let's apply that simple freedom-based principle to the person's healthcare expenses.

If you are a business that is legally required to provide health insurance to your employee, do you get to veto, say, providing insurance coverage for antibiotics if your employee comes down with chlamydia and gonorrhea cause they're out their fucking up a storm with tinder?

What if your employee is a massive idiot and goes and acquires HIV by having group sex at a known brothel?

What if your employee is an amazing dipshit, is diagnosed with high blood pressure, and chooses to ignore it, causing the employee to go into renal failure, and have a stroke?

Do you get to decide whether they get their antiviral medication, or their life-saving dialysis and thrombolytic therapy, since, like, you disagree morally and religously and like, stuff, with their private behavior?

Get. The. Fuck. Out.
Laws about morality. We need one for every ****ing individual then!
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,690
293
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Once you say that businesses can disregard laws that they claim to believe are morally wrong, then you have to rule for the baker and far worse characters who will make belief claims of various kind to justify discrimination. Ultimately, it will lead to a very dysfunctional society, but that's conservatism for you.
Indeed. If they rule for Colorado and its gays, should they overturn their previous decision? Can they? Would they? I'm still hopeful and a little optimistic.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,690
293
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Where have we seen this type of behavior before...hmmmm?


I like this one better.
Although it's all about hate, intolerance, racism is pure, instinctual fear of tribe, those different enough in appearance to be seen as a threat. Gay intolerance is all that stuff about behavior, maybe the voice, the walk, the fabulous drag queens. Hate toward the happy go lucky, the gay in spirit? Hate toward the learned tolerance from being different?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,661
4,483
126
Indeed. If they rule for Colorado and its gays, should they overturn their previous decision? Can they? Would they? I'm still hopeful and a little optimistic.
That's the problem with Conservatism. If you are consistent about applying it, society doesn't work. So what you get are hacks and exceptions just to make Conservatism not collapse under the weight of its own inconsistencies. Not all too different from other failed ideologies like Communism.
 
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bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
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US evangelical Chrisitianity is actually Mammon worship, with Mammon all dressed up as Jesus Christ.

In Mammon worship, the adherents don't just worship Mammon. They worship those who Mammon have blessed, i.e. the rich.

Had to look that up. Wow. What you got is who you are?
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,690
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www.bradlygsmith.org
Something I wrote on my gay life, hate, and self esteem (on FB):

“Self esteem” is such a loaded, sometimes empty feeling, impossible to reach, term. I search the roots of low self esteem, and for its resolution.

Did it start with corporal punishment for my perceived wrongs, stuff I hadn’t learned yet? Was it seeing my parents, whom I looked so far up to, fight? (do they really hate each other?) Was it sibling rivalry with a boy I also, initially, looked up to? (we seemed to grow to loathe, we admire each other now) Was it being beaten down by other boys for holding Tina Sable’s hand while walking from her Cape Cod home with the green shutters to kindergarten? (such beautiful blonde locks) Was it for avoiding her to avoid the pain? Was it getting violently bullied on the schoolyard while being called f*g (or later, when twenty-two, being lured into a trap and getting badly wounded by seven or eight hateful men, calling me the same thing, with bats on a dark, desolate beach)? Was it lost loves, friends? Was it getting laid off, watching my company crumble because of a “hostile takeover bid?” Was it mistakes in judgment? Was it life’s inevitable pain?

I read in a book and heard from a mentor who both said, to increase self esteem, one must do esteemable things; forgive (including the self), practice loving-kindness, compassion (including for the self), empathy, humility, and recognize what I already do that’s admirable, or not so much. Are you listening Mr. President? Edit: Bloated ego and self esteem aren't the same thing, they're actually the opposite.

Two paths before us, one dark, one of lightness.
 
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ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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If you want employer-covered contraceptive services, work somewhere else! If you want a cake for your gay wedding...to be continued. In both cases it boils down to "sexual immorality." 2017 or 1920?
no one forced hobby lobby's owners to do anything, hobby lobby's owners decided to start a business of their own volition. so, why is it always the case that the employee needs to go somewhere else, rather than the employer needs to abide by the generally applicable laws duly enacted by the legislature?

oh, that's right, business owners are better than us. it's right there in Mark 10:17-23

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God and employers. 19 "You know the commandments: 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal but changing the laws to loot the public treasury is kosher, you shall present alternative facts, you shall not defraud, and honor your father and mother by making sure they don't pay estate taxes on their deaths.'"

20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

21 "Jesus looked at him and loved him. "On thing you lack," he said. "Go, employ many people at the lowest wages possible, deny them benefits, and complain about the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

22 At this the man's face lit up. He went away happy, for he had great wealth and could buy into large enterprises and thereby employ many.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How easy is it for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"



Edit: I know, but where does it stop? In 2021 can I marry my phone?
are you the return of the toaster marrying guy?
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
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Mark 10:17-23 actually says:

Mark 10:17-23King James Version (KJV)
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Revelation 22:18-19 has a warning for those who play with the word.

Nothing May Be Added

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
 

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