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Gays and Their Damn Wedding Cakes! 12/5 for SCOTUS Arguments

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Republican SCOTUS is going to vote in favor of anti-gay discrimination, no doubt in my mind.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,480
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Bisexual myself. I think that if businesses don't want to sell their product to someone that it is their right, with the caveat being that by that same token, we can also choose not to patron said company with our business. Capitalism has the answer to this problem. I would much rather pay my money to a business that supports said causes, and let capitalism sort it all out.

Now that's talking about a cake, mind you. A product. Something like medical care or life and death services is another matter entirely. A doctor for example shouldn't be able to deny treatment to someone because they're gay or married to a gay partner. But something like a cake? I think businesses should be able to sell a consumer product to whoever they do or don't want to, if that makes sense.
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Bisexual myself. I think that if businesses don't want to sell their product to someone that it is their right, with the caveat being that by that same token, we can also choose not to patron said company with our business. Capitalism has the answer to this problem. I would much rather pay my money to a business that supports said causes, and let capitalism sort it all out.

Now that's talking about a cake, mind you. A product. Something like medical care or life and death services is another matter entirely. A doctor for example shouldn't be able to deny treatment to someone because they're gay or married to a gay partner. But something like a cake? I think businesses should be able to sell a consumer product to whoever they do or don't want to, if that makes sense.
SCOTUS answers questions of Constitutionality. The Constitution is same for doctors and bakers. If it's freedom of speech for a baker to deny a gay customer cake, it's freedom of speech for a doctor to deny a gay customer care.
 
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Jan 25, 2011
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Bisexual myself. I think that if businesses don't want to sell their product to someone that it is their right, with the caveat being that by that same token, we can also choose not to patron said company with our business. Capitalism has the answer to this problem. I would much rather pay my money to a business that supports said causes, and let capitalism sort it all out.

Now that's talking about a cake, mind you. A product. Something like medical care or life and death services is another matter entirely. A doctor for example shouldn't be able to deny treatment to someone because they're gay or married to a gay partner. But something like a cake? I think businesses should be able to sell a consumer product to whoever they do or don't want to, if that makes sense.
The problem comes from the ability of a community to get rid of entire groups of people they don't like be denying them services. Yes that's extreme but historically it's not unheard of. Small town racistville doesn't want blacks? Well we will make sure they can't do anything in town. Maybe they will get the hint and leave.

As soon as you allow discrimination for being gay, black etc to stand you open the floodgates.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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SCOTUS answers questions of Constitutionality. The Constitution is same for doctors and bakers. If it's freedom of speech for a baker to deny a gay customer cake, it's freedom of speech for a doctor to deny a gay customer care.
Is the baker denying selling them the "base" cake itself which should be illegal,

or is the gay customer requesting something that will be done to the cake that will identify it as a gay wedding celebration which the baker says violates his religious beliefs?

Something like this
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/05/pastor-gay-wedding-cake-kkk_n_5453277.html



How about a black baker refusing to monogram a cake with KKK symbols or a Jewish baker with Nazi symbols,



and before someone responds with "those aren't a protected class", how about religions like Wiccas and Satanists since they are a protected class like other religions.

 
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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
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It’s also a problem of contracts. Should I be allowed to start a business which means I agree to operate by the rules of the local and state governments when I get my business license. Only to turn around and refuse to honor the provisions I just agreed to because I claim it violated my religious rights.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
14,943
3,697
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The religitards are being assholes over this issue. Their hatred towards other people who don't share their same values and beliefs defies logic yet they expect for everyone else to bow down to them. The shop owner should also retain the right to refuse service to a customer which is normally for non compliance with their dress and behavior rules and not for ideology.

How many times have you encountered a church person who acted like they should receive special treatment because they claim to be a christian? I'm sick of their holier than thou attitudes.
 

Jimzz

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2012
4,354
149
106
^^

That's what I think Kennedy might use if he votes against the baker, we know its probably going to come down to him. Many are looking at this from the discrimination side. But the baker lost their cases as they were violating state law that was part if running a business.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
4,084
1,422
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Is the baker denying selling them the "base" cake itself which should be illegal,

or is the gay customer requesting something that will be done to the cake that will identify it as a gay wedding celebration which the baker says violates his religious beliefs?

Something like this
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/05/pastor-gay-wedding-cake-kkk_n_5453277.html



How about a black baker refusing to monogram a cake with KKK symbols or a Jewish baker with Nazi symbols,



and before someone responds with "those aren't a protected class", how about religions like Wiccas and Satanists since they are a protected class like other religions.

Yes. Assuming decency laws aren't being violated you should have to bake that cake. No one is forcing you to have a business license. Having such a license means non discrimination.
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,690
293
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Bisexual myself. I think that if businesses don't want to sell their product to someone that it is their right, with the caveat being that by that same token, we can also choose not to patron said company with our business. Capitalism has the answer to this problem. I would much rather pay my money to a business that supports said causes, and let capitalism sort it all out.

Now that's talking about a cake, mind you. A product. Something like medical care or life and death services is another matter entirely. A doctor for example shouldn't be able to deny treatment to someone because they're gay or married to a gay partner. But something like a cake? I think businesses should be able to sell a consumer product to whoever they do or don't want to, if that makes sense.
Interesting. I saw my GP's intern yesterday. She's Middle Eastern and wears the hijab, and is standoffish toward me, and I know the devout Muslim feeling toward gays. Over my years and a few medical situations I've seen nurses and staff with crosses around their necks, but generally they were much more friendly. I believe that if you call yourself a scientist (as I presume doctors do), that religious symbols should be left at home along with any religious intolerance.

I can just see it now, gay bakers refusing Christians.
 
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bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,690
293
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www.bradlygsmith.org
Is the baker denying selling them the "base" cake itself which should be illegal,

or is the gay customer requesting something that will be done to the cake that will identify it as a gay wedding celebration which the baker says violates his religious beliefs?

Something like this
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/05/pastor-gay-wedding-cake-kkk_n_5453277.html



How about a black baker refusing to monogram a cake with KKK symbols or a Jewish baker with Nazi symbols,



and before someone responds with "those aren't a protected class", how about religions like Wiccas and Satanists since they are a protected class like other religions.

Both issues are going to be argued at SCOTUS. Provision and design.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,423
614
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Wow! So much litigation for not selling cakes to gays. Arguments to start on 12/5. Should be interesting.
At first I agreed with the couple, but after I read the guy said he would sell them a wedding cake, but not a custom cake I have to agree with him. Custom cakes, especially a wedding cake is a art, you can't force a artist to make something. I have a friend that makes her living doing different art projects, she makes it clear she will only do stuff she is comfortable with.

@1prophet you raise a interesting point. the guy also refuses to decorate Halloween themed cakes. so if a satanist came in wanting a cake decorated to have the Devil holding a severed head of Jesus and he said no. would there be such a out cry of public sympathy , would it grow into a national story or a law suit with a trip to the supreme court? I am thinking no.

Phillips still stoutly defends his 2012 rebuff of Mullins and Craig, saying he offered to sell them virtually any of his baked goods except a custom cake for their wedding.

“I don’t create custom designs for events or messages that conflict with my conscience,” he said at the recent rally of his supporters. “I don’t create cakes for Halloween, bachelor or bachelorette parties, and anti-American cakes. I’ve turned down a cake order for an anti-LGBT message.”
 
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bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,690
293
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
At first I agreed with the couple, but after I read the guy said he would sell them a wedding cake, but not a custom cake I have to agree with him. Custom cakes, especially a wedding cake is a art, you can't force a artist to make something. I have a friend that makes her living doing different art projects, she makes it clear she will only do stuff she is comfortable with.
There's another baker in the case who is arguing against all provision, decorated or not.

The artist chooses what she creates. The baker advertises custom creations to all. Does the artist do that? I guess if the baker makes it clear in their advertising and on their door "No Custom Gay Wedding Cakes" it might be different. Was "No Blacks" something similar? In Colorado law it states that businesses can't discriminate about a few things including sexual orientation. Is the artist subject to that? I understand the artist would probably not design or provide anything to, say, a Nazi, but are they a protected class under "religious belief" protection?
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,423
614
126
There's another baker in the case who is arguing against all provision, decorated or not.

The artist chooses what she creates. The baker advertises custom creations to all. Does the artist do that? I guess if the baker makes it clear in their advertising and on their door "No Custom Gay Wedding Cakes" it might be different. Was "No Blacks" something similar? In Colorado law it states that businesses can't discriminate about a few things including sexual orientation. Is the artist subject to that? I understand the artist would probably not design or provide anything to, say, a Nazi, but are they a protected class under "religious belief" protection?
yea this will be interesting. LGBT are protected but not the rights of the artist of free speech and freedom of religion? the court now has to decide whos civil liberties are more important. its a mess.
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,648
4,473
126
I think if it's about making a specific artwork for a cake, he'd have a leg to stand on. But if it's plainly saying he won't make a wedding cake for a gay couple, even identical to one he would be OK making for a straight couple, then he is in the discrimination weeds. But this SCOTUS is not about common sense, it's about pushing a Republican agenda, so I think he is going to win.
2:20? wrong. he does serve gay people and has so for many year. its pretty clear in the video you posted and the quotes i posted. please keep up.
He does not serve them wedding cakes,regardless of design.
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
34,648
4,473
126
yea this will be interesting. LGBT are protected but not the rights of the artist of free speech and freedom of religion? the court now has to decide whos civil liberties are more important. its a mess.
Artists can say they won't sell paintings to gay people?
 

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