Gay student almost misses prom due to dress code

[norseamd]

Actually not sure why this took that long to snap into my mind.

Male dresses.

 

[K1052]

Skinny jeans are pretty fashionable in large parts of America today. In NYC they are everywhere.

Every time I come to Europe I can't help but think what a bunch of slovenly hicks most Americans look like in comparison. Also it's skinny (or at least very neatly tailored) pants/jeans as far as the eye can see here. Granted seeing the average American male form in anything more fitted than a poncho does give one pause.

 

[irishScott]

Your masculinity clearly has all the sturdiness of a faberge egg.

So does your internet psychoanalysis.

 

[irishScott]

Skinny jeans are pretty fashionable in large parts of America today. In NYC they are everywhere.

Also, you realize that calling someone a 'fairy' is a anti-gay slur, right?

Yeah, "fashionable".

All I know is when I was in high school they were made fun of as "gay", a sign of emos, gays and artsy-fartsies, or women (the one time skinny jeans weren't ridiculed). They were later adopted by the hipsters, which is more or less in the same category (women excepted of course).

In my experience "fairy" is slang for an extremely feminine gay male who goes out of their way to showcase their femininity (usually through cross-dressing or other flamboyant fashions). It's no more a slur than "butch lesbian" unless you apply it to gays in general.

 

[irishScott]

I think you missed my point, homosexuality has little to do with what type of clothes one wears.

Depends on the homosexual in question. Straight men don't cross-dress unless it's a joke or statement, and gay men on the feminine side are more likely to wear more feminine colors, accessories, and spend more time on their appearance.

If this topic had a satnav, it would be asking you to make a U-turn where possible...

All I did was point out that there would be a future controversy and described the nature. I didn't say you had to find it controversial.

Aside from your attempt at antagonism, what you're basically saying is that womens' trousers are designed with the feminine form in mind, and mens' trousers are designed with the male form in mind. So, coming back to where this line of inquiry originally came from, a man's dress is by definition one designed for the male form, don't you think?

You stated, via that pic, that trousers are somehow gender neutral. I pointed out how they weren't, and it's not just in reference to biological form. I can guarantee you that that man did not buy his "dresses" from the men's department, and that women generally do not buy their "trousers" from the men's department even though they have the option; and it's not just because the women's section fits better.

Perhaps that's the case where you're from. I can't remember ever encountering a situation where someone was made fun of as "gay" because of the cut of their trousers (and I didn't exactly grow up in a gay-friendly area or era). Furthermore, my wife likes me wearing a skinnier cut of jeans, so getting a bit of action is more likely, I guess I'm terribly gay then!

Some women were also into metrosexuals back when that was a thing. Enjoy it while it lasts!

 

[irishScott]

Actually not sure why this took that long to snap into my mind.

Male dresses.

Yeah, back however many centuries ago men wore clothing that could be construed as "dresses".

But for the past few centuries that's been a rarity in the western world as pants became more practical and easier to make. Sure some cultures (such as the Scots) still wear the ancient "dress-like" fashions for ceremonial or cultural reasons, or perhaps casually on occasion, but these articles of clothing are either highly specialized in function (such as bath or martial arts robes), or are anomalies.

The modern definition of "dress" as a specific article of clothing is almost entirely feminine, as the definitions you posted pointed out.

 

[DrPizza]

More on topic, there's already plenty of case law that schools cannot enforce separate dress codes for males and females... and cases where they could. In the cases where they could, they were able to show that it was a distraction. I.e., boys wearing a skirt, stuffed bra, lipstick. But, I cannot see how a girl in a tuxedo would be a distraction - and that's the purpose of the dress codes in the first place. Thus, I think a lawsuit by the student would be with merit. A hint at such a lawsuit might be sufficient for the school to decide to change their policy.

 

[BoberFett]

Schools are run by the same kind of people who run HOAs: small people with a tiny bit of power trying to look more important they are.

 

[irishScott]

Schools are run by the same kind of people who run HOAs: small people with a tiny bit of power trying to look more important they are.

Don't forget lawyers. I've known some damn fine school administrators who were hamstrung by lawyers at times. They wanted to do the rational, decent thing but couldn't due to liability. All it takes is one bad parent looking for a payday.

On another note, just to make my position clear I'm all for allowing this girl to wear the tuxedo, or some hypothetical gay guy to wear a prom dress for that matter. I honestly don't care.

 

[mikeymikec]

You stated, via that pic, that trousers are somehow gender neutral.

No I didn't.

I pointed out how they weren't, and it's not just in reference to biological form. I can guarantee you that that man did not buy his "dresses" from the men's department, and that women generally do not buy their "trousers" from the men's department even though they have the option; and it's not just because the women's section fits better.

No, I'm pretty sure that Eddie Izzard would go and buy his dresses from a shop that makes dresses for men. Hence, they're not "womens' dresses".

Re: IrishScott posting a picture of Justin Bieber

I'm pretty sure JB isn't gay either...

 

[irishScott]

No I didn't.

Good. Then this is all a misunderstanding. I still hold that what Mr/Ms Izzard said is stupid.

No, I'm pretty sure that Eddie Izzard would go and buy his dresses from a shop that makes dresses for men. Hence, they're not "womens' dresses".

Re: IrishScott posting a picture of Justin Bieber

I'm pretty sure JB isn't gay either...

You do know that Eddie Izzard apparently doesn't consider himself a man, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Izzard

He identifies as "a straight transvestite or a male lesbian".[37] He has also described himself as "a lesbian trapped in a man's body",[38] transgender,[33] and "a complete boy plus half girl".[37]

Sure, maybe he buys from one of those obscure cross-dressing specialty shops that typically cater to male transvestites. I fail to see what that has to do with anything I said. He's wrong. Dresses are for women, even if they are "lesbians trapped in a man's body".

As for Justin Bieber, I was just pointing out an example of "fashionable" in response to eskimopie. If you care about keeping up with "fashion", just follow Bieber's lead.

 

[mikeymikec]

Good. Then this is all a misunderstanding. I still hold that what Mr/Ms Izzard said is stupid.

You do know that Eddie Izzard apparently doesn't consider himself a man, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Izzard

Sure, maybe he buys from one of those obscure cross-dressing specialty shops that typically cater to male transvestites. I fail to see what that has to do with anything I said. He's wrong. Dresses are for women, even if they are "lesbians trapped in a man's body".

This post (on its own or combined with your previous statements on this topic), doesn't even make any vague sort of sense. But I guess you'd prefer not to make any sort of sense of it, because that might force you to reconsider your conceptions of "straight men are such-and-such, gay people do x or y, and women are women", while casually throwing in an anti-gay slur or two.

Normally I'd attempt to be more constructive in my criticism, but I would be naive if I believed that I could explain the complexities of human sexuality or gender perceptions to you in terms of a complete explanation, so I won't. I just let people be people. The alternative would seem to be that I would need to explain to Eddie Izzard that I know more about dresses, his sexuality and gender identity than he does and how he's doing it wrong.

 

[irishScott]

This post (on its own or combined with your previous statements on this topic), doesn't even make any vague sort of sense. But I guess you'd prefer not to make any sort of sense of it, because that might force you to reconsider your conceptions of "straight men are such-and-such, gay people do x or y, and women are women", while casually throwing in an anti-gay slur or two.

Normally I'd attempt to be more constructive in my criticism, but I would be naive if I believed that I could explain the complexities of human sexuality or gender perceptions to you in terms of a complete explanation, so I won't. I just let people be people. The alternative would seem to be that I would need to explain to Eddie Izzard that I know more about dresses, his sexuality and gender identity than he does and how he's doing it wrong.

It doesn't? I've made three points throughout this discussion: "Dresses", in the modern sense, are for women, trousers are not gender neutral, and that there will be a controversy at some point over some extremely feminine gay guy (colloquially known as a "fairy") trying to wear a prom dress to his/her high school prom. Since we both seem to agree on the 2nd point and you don't seem to care about the 3rd, that only leads me to believe that you're disputing the fact that modern "dresses" are for women by definition.

As for Eddie Izzard's gender identity, uh, no he doesn't get to rewrite the English language and his opinions, even about himself, are not above criticism. "Lesbian" is defined in every English dictionary as "a homosexual woman". A "homosexual woman trapped in a man's body" is a woman by definition. I could analyze his other descriptions of himself to identical effect. It seems he's making himself rather clear, if somewhat inconvenient for your argument.

I also inserted no gay slurs, merely descriptive slang terms; as I explained earlier.


In any case I don't know why I'm dissecting your arguments at this point. You just posted "I'm not going to address anything you just said and you're too dumb to understand even if I did." Friend, if you need a win that badly, then fine. You are the more enlightened man! Enjoy your winnings of 10 internet points!

 

[K1052]

All I know is when I was in high school

A sound basis for any contemporary opinion. Any other nuggets from those days like perhaps that the beeper is the pinnacle of communication or that inline skates will never go out of style?

 

[Phokus]

Here's how it'll go:

1. Company refuses to promote fairy because fairy will alienate potential customers.
2. Fairy sues company for gender discrimination and demands the right to wear whatever he wants and be promoted based on fairness as opposed to ability.
3. Popcorn

We're already seeing this with some countries mandating that a certain percentage of board members be women, period. Doesn't matter if there's not enough competent women to fill the roles, we need gender equality at all costs!



Oh I don't know, maybe you should go to your local Macy's and try and buy your pants from the women's department; since you apparently think they're interchangeable. Here's a brief rundown to save you the trouble.

Women's trousers are designed to better fit women's features, usually have very few if any pockets as most women carry purses, often in brighter colors, often don't have flies, and are typically tighter fitting and geared toward showing off the legs and posterior.

Men's trousers are usually baggier, more muted in tone, often have cargo pockets (at least in casual settings) and have flies, deeper side pockets (as men don't carry purses), and focus more on function than form.

There's also a reason guys wearing skinny pants are often made fun of as "gay", because skinny pants are what women wear.

With the way IrishScott uses 'fairy' to bash gay people, i give it a 50/50 shot that he's gay himself.

 

[brycejones]

With the way IrishScott uses 'fairy' to bash gay people, i give it a 50/50 shot that he's gay himself.

He and Texashiker should hook up and finally admit their love that cannot be spoken of.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

Funny I have not actually heard this slur or least it is not of significance for me to remember. Not that I am debating whether or not it is a slur just funny I have not heard much of the word.

LOL, I suppose the phrase; "light in the loafers", has no meaning to you either.

 

[brycejones]

On another note, just to make my position clear I'm all for allowing this girl to wear the tuxedo, or some hypothetical gay guy to wear a prom dress for that matter. I honestly don't care.

Maybe you should have led with that instead of sounding like an ignorant fool.

 

[Subyman]

Yeah, "fashionable".

All I know is when I was in high school they were made fun of as "gay", a sign of emos, gays and artsy-fartsies, or women (the one time skinny jeans weren't ridiculed). They were later adopted by the hipsters, which is more or less in the same category (women excepted of course).

In my experience "fairy" is slang for an extremely feminine gay male who goes out of their way to showcase their femininity (usually through cross-dressing or other flamboyant fashions). It's no more a slur than "butch lesbian" unless you apply it to gays in general.

Lol "butch" is a slur as well.

Easy test for a slur, would you call someone that to their face? If so, then you may need to relearn how those words fit into the American vocabulary

 

[Rhonda the Sly]

We've become way too preoccupied with micromanaging peoples' relationships, perceptions of gender, and Justin Beiber in this country. It's unhealthy.

 

[rudeguy]

Funny I have not actually heard this slur or least it is not of significance for me to remember. Not that I am debating whether or not it is a slur just funny I have not heard much of the word.

That's because you never leave your house. You don't work, go to school or socialize. How could you know anything about society when you don't contribute to society?

 

[runzwithsizorz]

We've become way too preoccupied with micromanaging peoples' relationships, perceptions of gender, and Justin Beiber in this country. It's unhealthy.

Now Ward, don't you think you were a little hard on the Beiber last night?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Just wait until it's a dude who wants to wear a prom dress.

http://www.khou.com/story/local/2015/04/05/11972286/

https://books.google.ca/books?id=IT...v=onepage&q=teen boy wears prom dress&f=false

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...school-prom--ends-giving-make-tips-girls.html

 

[irishScott]

Lol "butch" is a slur as well.

Easy test for a slur, would you call someone that to their face? If so, then you may need to relearn how those words fit into the American vocabulary

Given that I've heard gay people use both words to describe each other, sure. In my mind it's no more a slur than me calling a person with an English accent a "Brit". Or some foreigner calling me a "Yank". Or calling my ancestors "mics". It's just descriptive slang, nothing more. Whether it's a slur or not depends entirely on context.

But I just got an infraction for it, so in future posts I will abide by forum rules. I'll just leave this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o25I2fzFGoY

 

[irishScott]

A sound basis for any contemporary opinion. Any other nuggets from those days like perhaps that the beeper is the pinnacle of communication or that inline skates will never go out of style?

Both were long gone by the time I graduated high school. Nice try though.