Gay student almost misses prom due to dress code

[BoberFett]

"nothing offends me!" -a white male

"everything offends me!" - a special liberal snowflake

 

[BoberFett]

Language frames how we see the world. There's a famous quote attributed to Charlemagne that says 'two have a second language is to have a second soul'.

Referring to groups of people in pejorative ways frames how we view them. It's nuts to pretend that doesn't matter and people shouldn't be bothered by it.

Then wouldn't you agree that black people casually tossing around the N word helps perpetuate bad attitudes just as much as white people using it?

 

[fskimospy]

Then wouldn't you agree that black people casually tossing around the N word helps perpetuate bad attitudes just as much as white people using it?

No, because it's not used in a similar context.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Then wouldn't you agree that black people casually tossing around the N word helps perpetuate bad attitudes just as much as white people using it?

Perhaps to some extent, but they might also be able to remove some of the negative connotation that way. It is a socially tricky proposition. What I would recommend is that you study carefully just how they use the word to see if it has a very specific cultural usage that you might not be grasping since you are not of that culture. But that is a problem they must solve for themselves.

 

[irishScott]

I think you need to be careful letting your personal experiences transfer to "the majority of people." In my experience, gay people really aren't that pleased with straight people using the word "fairy," and I'm going to go out on a limb and guess I know more gay people than you (though there's probably a generational gap, since I mostly know old lesbians). Just because you can use a word with friends who know you and know your intentions doesn't mean you should be able to use that particular language in every setting, and on the Internet, most people are strangers. It's a dangerous assumption to use potentially inflammatory language without knowing how your audience will respond, so you should generally err on the side of caution.

I'm actually with you in thinking that political correctness has gotten out of hand, but I also understand the rationale behind it; part of being respectful to other people is not using language that is specifically hurtful to a group they happen to be a part of. I've been saying "retarded" for most of my life and I've never once meant it as relating to someone with a developmental disability. If someone gets offended when I say it, I don't defend myself and say "you're just taking it out of context," I apologize because I'm the one who made the mistake of using insensitive language in the first place. So maybe rather than vehemently defending your use of language that strangers on the Internet were offended by, you should accept that you were unaware that it was going to cause offense, apologize and move on.

And therein lies the difference, I don't see it as my mistake unless I actually mis-spoke. In public if someone is offended by something I innocently say, I'll apologize and move on because I have to however briefly share space with that person, odds are they won't be convinced even if I'm 100% right (which no one ever is with issues like this), and there's no need to escalate and create a public disruption for those uninvolved.

But this is an internet sub-forum devoted to politics and news. We're all here by choice, we all click on this thread (which by the topic title should be recognized as somewhat "inflammatory") by choice. We all engage in debate or ignore each other by choice and there's nothing exclusionary or disruptive about defending my views. So I do. In fact I get some benefit from having my views challenged in this manner, either through new/renewed information that makes me change them or confirmation, and if I have the time for that (as I currently do), great! If I don't have the time, I'll leave. Either way I'm not losing sleep or hair over this debate, and for anyone who is that's their responsibility.

I won't pretend there's nothing personal in my defense, I've been around here a while and I certainly don't want to be mistakenly known as racist or anti-gay. In retrospect I'll agree I should have been less relaxed in my language, but I'm long past personal defense and into casual debate at this point.

 

[irishScott]

What about those people that do take sever racial offense and become successful? Does the counterexample not negate your position? That is normally a good sign of cherry picking.

Not when I see more successful people coming from unsuccessful backgrounds that don't take severe racial offense.

I'm making a relatively abstract assertion based on life experiences, personal observations and some psychological studies I've casually perused. I don't expect it to pass a thesis defense and I don't have the time or resources to reinforce it to that degree. That's the nature of most everyone's view about everything that isn't their specific expertise. You are welcome to disagree with my assertion, I cannot 100% prove it, and I'd be happy to read any information you have that contradicts it.

 

[jhbball]

Not when I see more successful people coming from unsuccessful backgrounds that don't take severe racial offense.

I'm making a relatively abstract assertion based on life experiences, personal observations and some psychological studies I've casually perused. I don't expect it to pass a thesis defense and I don't have the time or resources to reinforce it to that degree. That's the nature of most everyone's view about everything that isn't their specific expertise. You are welcome to disagree with my assertion, I cannot 100% prove it, and I'd be happy to read any information you have that contradicts it.

aka talking out of your ass.

 

[irishScott]

aka talking out of your ass.

Says the guy who's only posted one-liners this whole thread.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Not when I see more successful people coming from unsuccessful backgrounds that don't take severe racial offense.

I'm making a relatively abstract assertion based on life experiences, personal observations and some psychological studies I've casually perused. I don't expect it to pass a thesis defense and I don't have the time or resources to reinforce it to that degree. That's the nature of most everyone's view about everything that isn't their specific expertise. You are welcome to disagree with my assertion, I cannot 100% prove it, and I'd be happy to read any information you have that contradicts it.

What I'm saying is that when you dismiss counter examples with assertions like "I see more of X" , you better carefully check your biases because confirmation bias is the easiest bias to fall for. At the very least it is not a good basis for a very controversial philosophy like you are espousing.

When most people disagree with your position you should have a argument better than 'I feel this is true from my admittedly very limited experience'.

 

[irishScott]

What I'm saying is that when you dismiss counter examples with assertions like "I see more of X" , you better carefully check your biases because confirmation bias is the easiest bias to fall for. At the very least it is not a good basis for a very controversial philosophy like you are espousing.

When most people disagree with your position you should have a argument better than 'I feel this is true from my admittedly very limited experience'.

I don't dismiss them, I admit that I can't fully account for those counter-examples, I just see more evidence that supports my view. Yes that probably is, at least in part, some form of confirmation bias. No one outside of experts in any given field is above that, and even the experts can only minimize it outside of purely empirical fields like math and technology. The best us amateurs can do is try to remain as personally objective and informed as possible, which is what I strive for and why I'm openly inviting any information that opposes me (I'll actually read it in my free time, I've gotten some good info from this forum oddly enough). But I'm not going to shy away from holding a position I think is reasonable because I "might" be wrong, that way lies stagnation.

As for the number of people who think I'm wrong, arguments, particularly philosophical arguments, aren't a democracy; and most of the feedback I've gotten this thread has been little more than various iterations of "you're wrong, end of story." Not very convincing. Also if you want to talk confirmation bias, I'd argue that assuming any non-gay who uses "fairy" hates gays is a good example.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Oh I know. I'm just saying that reaction would be kinda dumb, especially if I wasn't using the word offensively.

Here's the semi-conscious mental leaps involved for some bad words.

1: "That's a cool n*gger."
2: "Oh you must be like a slave master who hates black people!"
1: "No I was just saying he was cool guy.."
2: "YOU'RE WHITE!!! YOU SAID THE WORD!!! FUCKING RACIST!!!"

1: "Oh, that loudmouth cross-dressing fairy's screaming again, can he just shut up?"
2: "Oh, you must be some conservative christian who hates gay people!"
1: "No I was complaining about how he's obnoxious and in everyone's face all the time.."
2: "YOU JUST HATE GAY PEOPLE!!!"

Words are words are words. Whether they're offensive or not is all in whether they're meant offensively, but unfortunately taking people one at a time isn't as hard-coded into humanity as over-generalization.

When you call a person a "fairy" what exactly are you trying to say? That they are one of these?

 

[RampantAndroid]

Oh I know. I'm just saying that reaction would be kinda dumb, especially if I wasn't using the word offensively.

Here's the semi-conscious mental leaps involved for some bad words.

1: "That's a cool n*gger."
2: "Oh you must be like a slave master who hates black people!"
1: "No I was just saying he was cool guy.."
2: "YOU'RE WHITE!!! YOU SAID THE WORD!!! FUCKING RACIST!!!"

1: "Oh, that loudmouth cross-dressing fairy's screaming again, can he just shut up?"
2: "Oh, you must be some conservative christian who hates gay people!"
1: "No I was complaining about how he's obnoxious and in everyone's face all the time.."
2: "YOU JUST HATE GAY PEOPLE!!!"

Words are words are words. Whether they're offensive or not is all in whether they're meant offensively, but unfortunately taking people one at a time isn't as hard-coded into humanity as over-generalization.

ANd yet, isn't it better to just stop using words like fairy (unless you are referring literally to a fairy from a fairy tale), poof, n word, i love you (unless you still call cigarettes fags) and such? Isn't it easier to just eliminate those words rather than spend time explaining "I didn't mean it!"

 

[irishScott]

ANd yet, isn't it better to just stop using words like fairy (unless you are referring literally to a fairy from a fairy tale), poof, n word, i love you (unless you still call cigarettes fags) and such? Isn't it easier to just eliminate those words rather than spend time explaining "I didn't mean it!"

Yes it is in most contexts, and in public that's what I do. That doesn't mean it's right or I agree with it, I just do it out of practicality. But in private or with friends if I'm referencing an ultra-feminine obnoxious gay guy I'll use the term "fairy" because it's easier to say, conveys the same information, and anyone who knows me knows I'm not anti-gay, quite the opposite in fact. What happened here was I was too relaxed in P&N.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Yes it is in most contexts, and in public that's what I do. That doesn't mean it's right or I agree with it, I just do it out of practicality. But in private or with friends if I'm referencing an ultra-feminine obnoxious gay guy I'll use the term "fairy" because it's easier to say, conveys the same information, and anyone who knows me knows I'm not anti-gay, quite the opposite in fact. What happened here was I was too relaxed in P&N.

I would be willing to bet that your gay friends don't think you are anti-gay, because you continually use words that are unavoidably biased. It would be like if you knew a black guy who used the word asshole anytime he was referring to a middle-class white guy, but kept telling you he is not anti-white guys.

 

[irishScott]

I would be willing to bet that your gay friends don't think you are anti-gay, because you continually use words that are unavoidably biased. It would be like if you knew a black guy who used the word asshole anytime he was referring to a middle-class white guy, but kept telling you he is not anti-white guys.

Maybe, but thing is I don't refer to all gay people as faeries, only the ultra-feminine ones that are obnoxiously in your face about it, and it's the obnoxious part I care about, not the gay. Honestly this thread is the first time I've had cause to use the term in months, and it was in a freaking hypothetical!

 

[CZroe]

Remember we're talking high school, with dress codes. Women buy women's trousers, there is no such thing as a man's dress. *queue some smart-ass drawing obscure dress-like male garment from some random culture or TV show*

Happy to oblige.

 

[brycejones]

Says the guy who's only posted one-liners this whole thread.

And yet has he has said much more of substance with that one post than you have this entire thread.

 

[WelshBloke]

Maybe, but thing is I don't refer to all gay people as faeries, only the ultra-feminine ones that are obnoxiously in your face about it, and it's the obnoxious part I care about, not the gay. Honestly this thread is the first time I've had cause to use the term in months, and it was in a freaking hypothetical!

So you don't mind gay people as long as they aren't too gay?
Are you ok with black people as long as they don't get too 'uppitty'?

 

[irishScott]

And yet has he has said much more of substance with that one post than you have this entire thread.

And yet, you apparently read the whole thread? I must have said something worth your time.

 

[irishScott]

So you don't mind gay people as long as they aren't too gay?
Are you ok with black people as long as they don't get too 'uppitty'?

I'm ok with anyone who isn't obnoxious and trying to shove themselves in my face, in any regard. I've met a couple of gay people who would put tea party protesters to shame.. oh shit. I just made a politically incorrect comparison on the internet. What is an honest man to do?

Now, how many more straw men before some other stranger on the internet judges me a "homophobe" for that comment?

Edit: On a related note, it's interesting to see how "homophobe" now appears to be used as an insult more than "gay", yet just as many people don't know the meaning of the word they're using.

 

[ahmedbream]

Spam, spam, spam, spam and . . . spam.

 

[finglobes]

I'm ok with anyone who isn't obnoxious and trying to shove themselves in my face, in any regard. I've met a couple of gay people who would put tea party protesters to shame.. oh shit. I just made a politically incorrect comparison on the internet. What is an honest man to do?

Just do a Google image search of "gay pride" and you'll see all photos of gays showing just what gay pride is for the group at the center. Then you won't have to get tangled up in speculation

 

[Perknose]

I'm ok with anyone who isn't obnoxious and trying to shove themselves in my face...

I see you played the face card, though I'm pretty sure no one has ever shoved themselves in your face. Smugly well done!

You may only so rabidly dislike some gay people that you couldn't counter the impulse to type the words you just did, and you really, really may not be any sort of full fledged bigot, 'tis true.

Just please realize that when you feel the need to express yourself as you just did, you do echo those KKK types who explained that they had nothing against those darkies who knew their place, they just didn't like those who became . . . uppity.

Edit: Dang, just saw Welsh Bloke said the same thing in far fewer words.

Second edit: And that this thread is as past its sell by date as Irish Scott's social and sartorial attitudes.

 

[Moonbeam]

I'm ok with anyone who isn't obnoxious and trying to shove themselves in my face, in any regard. I've met a couple of gay people who would put tea party protesters to shame.. oh shit. I just made a politically incorrect comparison on the internet. What is an honest man to do?

Now, how many more straw men before some other stranger on the internet judges me a "homophobe" for that comment?

Edit: On a related note, it's interesting to see how "homophobe" now appears to be used as an insult more than "gay", yet just as many people don't know the meaning of the word they're using.

There is no more vile a form of shoving yourself in somebody's face than pretending that your egotistical opinion of what is obnoxious, brainwashed into you as a child and having no validity in reality whatsoever, is an affront to you rather than somebody else. This makes you quite obnoxiously disgusting, but this time in reality. You simply lack the psychological maturity and sophistication not to take offense. And you should not take offense at my words either. At your stage of development you can't be other than you are since none of the brainwashing you got as a child was your fault or could be avoided. You are the world, which means that any ugliness or beauty you see comes from within you.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Perhaps that's the case where you're from. I can't remember ever encountering a situation where someone was made fun of as "gay" because of the cut of their trousers (and I didn't exactly grow up in a gay-friendly area or era). Furthermore, my wife likes me wearing a skinnier cut of jeans, so getting a bit of action is more likely, I guess I'm terribly gay then!

If you walk through downtown StL as a guy, in skinny jeans, you're going to get bad looks from just about every demographic except other guys in skinny jeans.

In my experience, wearing skinny jeans is an open invite for ridicule, at least in the midwest.

I personally don't say anything, but maybe I'm showing some subtle bigotry, but I honestly, in my mind, call a guy's judgement into question if he thinks skinny jeans look good. Kind of like when I see someone wearing Beats headphones. I automatically assume you're bad with money.