Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

[redgtxdi]

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
You have at least one recourse. If the employee continues to act like an asshat, don't fire him. Instead, reduce his hours so much that he basically can't live on his wages and has to quit. If he's a delivery driver, give him shitty runs that go to the far reaches of your delivery area. If you fire him you will have to pay for unemployment. I normally despise this method of dealing with problem employees, but in the cases of dicks like him, go nuts.

Dr Pizza: I understand your point of view but this is his business. If he gives exceptions or leniency then that employee and other employees will probably start pushing the limits. True, it's a menial job, but it's HIS money that is paying their wages. All he is asking is to wear the proper uniform. I don't consider that as micro-managing and does not take a big effort on the employee's end. You don't even know if this is a policy that the company requires to be adhered to continue to be a franchise. It didn't sound to me like the OP flipped out on him. Maybe he should have given a verbal warning first, however.

Great post! :thumbsup:


On top of the fact that this is probably a franchise, there are more considerations for uniform etiquette than would even normally be........(Cali is the worst)......and better to handle it just as stated above.

Also, there seems to be a huge lack of respect in the entire work world lately. It almost seems to fall directly in line w/ the current & prior generation's sense of "entitlement".

Kids telling their parents to F3ck off!!
Employees telling their employers the same!!

Hell, I've got a buddy workin' mother-fvckin' CAKEBOY union job (can't get fired to save his life) and he says without union this fortune 500 company would just walk all over employees.

Well, then shine it. It's obvious, we're inching toward socialism anyway.......let's just do it & then we can all be happy.

:roll:

 

[GeekDrew]

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
It didn't sound to me like the OP flipped out on him.

Right - we've only heard the OP's side of the story. Perhaps he initiated the conversation with a tone of voice louder and more demeaning than your average bullhorn. We'll never know.

While there is every possibility that this situation is with an irresponsible employee, there's also the chance that the OP - or his manager - has done something to provoke it. I've worked jobs where my immediate supervisor has given me verbal warnings on a daily basis, to the point that they mean absolutely nothing, other than that I and other employees would rather see him off himself than ever breathe again. We (the employees) had believed some of the stuff that he told us about management higher than him, so when a situation came around that we had to deal with higher management, they couldn't understand why every employee in the facility seemed hostile toward them.

The exact same circumstance *could* apply here, though it's admittedly not probable. Or, it could be any number of other activities, actions, or personalities that are screwed up beyond belief, that we've not heard of.

 

[XxPrOdiGyxX]

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
It didn't sound to me like the OP flipped out on him.

Right - we've only heard the OP's side of the story. Perhaps he initiated the conversation with a tone of voice louder and more demeaning than your average bullhorn. We'll never know.

While there is every possibility that this situation is with an irresponsible employee, there's also the chance that the OP - or his manager - has done something to provoke it. I've worked jobs where my immediate supervisor has given me verbal warnings on a daily basis, to the point that they mean absolutely nothing, other than that I and other employees would rather see him off himself than ever breathe again. We (the employees) had believed some of the stuff that he told us about management higher than him, so when a situation came around that we had to deal with higher management, they couldn't understand why every employee in the facility seemed hostile toward them.

The exact same circumstance *could* apply here, though it's admittedly not probable. Or, it could be any number of other activities, actions, or personalities that are screwed up beyond belief, that we've not heard of.

true. but he's the owner...he has a bit more of a right to flip-out. either way, i don't think the manager could have provoked the employee to not wear the proper uniform. but yeah, it is a one-sided story but i tend to think that most fast-food employees aren't the epitome of ideal workers.

 

[GeekDrew]

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
true. but he's the owner...he has a bit more of a right to flip-out. either way, i don't think the manager could have provoked the employee to not wear the proper uniform. but yeah, it is a one-sided story but i tend to think that most fast-food employees aren't the epitome of ideal workers.

Why does being the owner give someone the right to flip out at an employee?

And yes, I'd agree that many fast-food employees aren't ideal employees. I don't know if I would say "most", though... I know some that are great people and hard workers, they just don't have the education or skills to get a job anywhere else. :-\

 

[gsethi]

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
It didn't sound to me like the OP flipped out on him.

Right - we've only heard the OP's side of the story. Perhaps he initiated the conversation with a tone of voice louder and more demeaning than your average bullhorn. We'll never know.

While there is every possibility that this situation is with an irresponsible employee, there's also the chance that the OP - or his manager - has done something to provoke it. I've worked jobs where my immediate supervisor has given me verbal warnings on a daily basis, to the point that they mean absolutely nothing, other than that I and other employees would rather see him off himself than ever breathe again. We (the employees) had believed some of the stuff that he told us about management higher than him, so when a situation came around that we had to deal with higher management, they couldn't understand why every employee in the facility seemed hostile toward them.

The exact same circumstance *could* apply here, though it's admittedly not probable. Or, it could be any number of other activities, actions, or personalities that are screwed up beyond belief, that we've not heard of.

LOL..I love ATOT...you guys seem to find fault in OP

I didn't say anything to either employees when I walked in neither talked with the manager. Just went to the office, wrote out warnings and waited for a slow period. I kept both warnings in the employee area (where employees usually sit) and told manager to tell both employees to read the warnings, sign and come talk to me.

This employee was calling for me from the employee area (usually they all walk to me in my office area when they want to talk with me). So I walk up to him/her, and he/she is saying "I am not going to sign anything" in a louder than normal voice. I was trying to explain why they were both got written up but all i got was "I am not going to sign anything" in even louder voice. I asked if he/she was refusing to sign and it might be considered insubordination and this employee started to walk out. I asked if he/she was going to show up on Monday but no answer and employee continued to walk out.

oh, this is not your normal teenager or college going employee. Employee is a middle aged person.

 

[XxPrOdiGyxX]

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
true. but he's the owner...he has a bit more of a right to flip-out. either way, i don't think the manager could have provoked the employee to not wear the proper uniform. but yeah, it is a one-sided story but i tend to think that most fast-food employees aren't the epitome of ideal workers.

Why does being the owner give someone the right to flip out at an employee?

And yes, I'd agree that many fast-food employees aren't ideal employees. I don't know if I would say "most", though... I know some that are great people and hard workers, they just don't have the education or skills to get a job anywhere else. :-\

Because it's their money. I'm not saying it's the right approach. I am just saying I can understand why it might make the owner angry or take it more personally.

Edit: Oh and they have as much right as the employee has to be rude to their employer and flip out on them.

 

[jackace]

If you have the rules posted and the employees were verbally told the rules and shown the posted rules then you are 100% in the right. You don't need the employee to sign the warning if they refuse. Just right refused on, next to, or beneath the signature line and try and get a witness to sign/initial that they were present when the employee refused. Don't know if the witness is necessary, I just know when I was assistant manager at a restaurant we always got a witness to initial/sign as part of our management policy.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: Tweak155
Refusal to sign a document that states what occurred and that it was incorrect shows refusal to adapt to company policy.

I refuse to adapt to any company policy that's not in place specifically for the health and safety of employees. Most of them are arbitrary and useless.

Franchise uniforms are a different thing. When I was a uniformed employee, I always looked my best because I was the customer-facing front of the store. Customers remember clean stores and clean, well-dressed employees.

I've personally never signed a written warning, and I never will. Never had an issue with it, but then, I don't fly off the handle.



OP, why won't you just come out and state if the employee was a male or female? All this "he/she" "him/her" stuff is annoying. :\ I also think you should fire this person. If they show up monday, hand them the final written warning for insubordination and walking out, and tell them to pound sand.

 

[BladeVenom]

If you need an employee to sign a paper saying he was warned. Do you also need to have him sign a paper saying he refused to sign a paper to fire him.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: GeekDrew

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
It didn't sound to me like the OP flipped out on him.

Right - we've only heard the OP's side of the story. Perhaps he initiated the conversation with a tone of voice louder and more demeaning than your average bullhorn. We'll never know.

While there is every possibility that this situation is with an irresponsible employee, there's also the chance that the OP - or his manager - has done something to provoke it. I've worked jobs where my immediate supervisor has given me verbal warnings on a daily basis, to the point that they mean absolutely nothing, other than that I and other employees would rather see him off himself than ever breathe again. We (the employees) had believed some of the stuff that he told us about management higher than him, so when a situation came around that we had to deal with higher management, they couldn't understand why every employee in the facility seemed hostile toward them.

The exact same circumstance *could* apply here, though it's admittedly not probable. Or, it could be any number of other activities, actions, or personalities that are screwed up beyond belief, that we've not heard of.

LOL..I love ATOT...you guys seem to find fault in OP

I didn't say anything to either employees when I walked in neither talked with the manager. Just went to the office, wrote out warnings and waited for a slow period. I kept both warnings in the employee area (where employees usually sit) and told manager to tell both employees to read the warnings, sign and come talk to me.

This employee was calling for me from the employee area (usually they all walk to me in my office area when they want to talk with me). So I walk up to him/her, and he/she is saying "I am not going to sign anything" in a louder than normal voice. I was trying to explain why they were both got written up but all i got was "I am not going to sign anything" in even louder voice. I asked if he/she was refusing to sign and it might be considered insubordination and this employee started to walk out. I asked if he/she was going to show up on Monday but no answer and employee continued to walk out.

oh, this is not your normal teenager or college going employee. Employee is a middle aged person.

He probably figured that the shitty job wasn't worth taking any crap from some asshole.

 

[Turin39789]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: Tweak155
Refusal to sign a document that states what occurred and that it was incorrect shows refusal to adapt to company policy.

I refuse to adapt to any company policy that's not in place specifically for the health and safety of employees. Most of them are arbitrary and useless.

Franchise uniforms are a different thing. When I was a uniformed employee, I always looked my best because I was the customer-facing front of the store. Customers remember clean stores and clean, well-dressed employees.

I've personally never signed a written warning, and I never will. Never had an issue with it, but then, I don't fly off the handle.



OP, why won't you just come out and state if the employee was a male or female? All this "he/she" "him/her" stuff is annoying. :\ I also think you should fire this person. If they show up monday, hand them the final written warning for insubordination and walking out, and tell them to pound sand.

finally another person who is annoyed by the he/she. We are talking about a specific person here.

My conclusion - it is a "she", and "she" was really upset because she thought her affair with the OP would get her out of the visor

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: Tweak155
Refusal to sign a document that states what occurred and that it was incorrect shows refusal to adapt to company policy.

I refuse to adapt to any company policy that's not in place specifically for the health and safety of employees. Most of them are arbitrary and useless.

Franchise uniforms are a different thing. When I was a uniformed employee, I always looked my best because I was the customer-facing front of the store. Customers remember clean stores and clean, well-dressed employees.

I've personally never signed a written warning, and I never will. Never had an issue with it, but then, I don't fly off the handle.



OP, why won't you just come out and state if the employee was a male or female? All this "he/she" "him/her" stuff is annoying. :\ I also think you should fire this person. If they show up monday, hand them the final written warning for insubordination and walking out, and tell them to pound sand.

finally another person who is annoyed by the he/she. We are talking about a specific person here.

My conclusion - it is a "she", and "she" was really upset because she thought her affair with the OP would get her out of the visor

I think it only prudent by the OP to not make it gender specific. It provides another level of anonymity, if this thread were to ever make it an arbitrators eyes.

"So, Mr. gsethi you admit that you are not competent to run a store and have to seek advice from random internet geeks in order to make business decisions, isn't that true?"



I think the OP did good, except for not verbally warning the person that the refusal to sign and storming out would result in another "write up" and in the future never approach an employee that is being disciplined without another manager to serve as a witness.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Some people get highly irritated over stupid draconian bullshit that has absolutely no effect on anything whatsoever (unless we're talking about safety type uniform stuff, or something like that). If you don't like it, quit making pointless rules. If you want to make rules, accept absolutely that employees may respond that way.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Mwilding
Not enough pieces of flair?

Yes, I remember a restuarant chain where you had to wear a certain number of buttons to be in compliance.

Steak and Ale maybe?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: gsethi

LOL..I love ATOT...you guys seem to find fault in OP

I didn't say anything to either employees when I walked in neither talked with the manager. Just went to the office, wrote out warnings and waited for a slow period. I kept both warnings in the employee area (where employees usually sit) and told manager to tell both employees to read the warnings, sign and come talk to me.

This employee was calling for me from the employee area (usually they all walk to me in my office area when they want to talk with me). So I walk up to him/her, and he/she is saying "I am not going to sign anything" in a louder than normal voice. I was trying to explain why they were both got written up but all i got was "I am not going to sign anything" in even louder voice. I asked if he/she was refusing to sign and it might be considered insubordination and this employee started to walk out. I asked if he/she was going to show up on Monday but no answer and employee continued to walk out.

oh, this is not your normal teenager or college going employee.

Employee is a middle aged person.

Shens.

ATers swear there is no such thing.

No one over 18 works for minimum wage.

 

[AlienCraft]

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: ric1287

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: ric1287
The whole "signing warnings" thing is stupid anyhow.

"I'm going to yell at you for doing something wrong, now please sign this waiver stating that I yelled at you"

When the employer is sued upon firing the employee, and the employee states that he was never warned or told what he was doing was wrong, the employer has proof the employee was warned.

Yeah, how stupid.

Or just keep records yourself without having people sign documents stating they suck at their job. Great morale booster

If the employee does not sign it, you have no proof you have warned the employee.

Signing the document does not mean you agree with it. It merely acknowledges you received the warning.

In any case, the employee has ALREADY been warned. Why is signing an acknowledgment to this any more demoralizing???

The morale of my emplyee means dick if he cannot be warned and I can't have proof of it.

You obviously have never been an employer, or manager, have you?

Well, thats where video surveillance comes in handy. I have already taped that incident and will be saving it.

Being an Owner and managing employees is not easy....

:thumbsup: This is why I now try to read the thread all the way thyrough before commenting.
I was so going to say "VIDEO EVERYTHING and no one needs to sign any papers.... just smile for the camera !

 

[Juked07]

I still find it hard to believe that a "good employee" would have such an issue over a visor. There must be some sort of history here, or some condition which makes the employee extraordinarily frightened of visors..

 

[MagicConch]

Why can't it be said in front of a with a witness and have the witness sign that they heard you tell him about the issue? That would cover your liability as well I would think (but I am no lawyer) Personally I would never sign such a document for anyone because it can follow you in other jobs, people can interpret it in ways that are detrimental, etc. But then I never had a job that required it from me nor had an employer who was unhappy with my performance at work.

 

[Aberforth]

I'd give a warning letter to the boss for hiring incompetent employees.

 

[Gothgar]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
You can take this advice with a grain of salt, but:

When I walked in, I saw both not wearing the visor. The other employee quickly went back and wore the visor when he saw me entering (but he still got the warning and understood).

Quit micro-managing. It's a fast food place. Jobs are a dime a dozen. Good workers who show up on time regularly aren't nearly as frequent in that industry.

When manager came, he told both employees that they were not wearing a visor and that I might be pissed about if I came and saw it.

There's your problem. If the manager couldn't correct such a simple behavior verbally without making a big deal out of it, you need to choose your managers a bit better. This isn't coming from inexperience - I was a "regular" employee for a couple of years, then manager at a pizza shop for 18 more years. I can only recall one situation in 18 years where we fired an employee - that employee made crude remarks to a customer on a couple of occasions. (The final straw was when a female told him that the restroom was out of toilet paper & he said "I hope you didn't get your hand wet.")

A result of not micro-managing is that employees tended to work there much longer term. Find me another fast food place where the average term of employment is around 10 years, and many of the employees stick around, even after getting full-time professional jobs (policeman, accountant, banker, CAD draftsman, teacher,...)

Written warnings that the employee has to sign - at a fast food restaurant?? Get over yourself. It's great that you own a few franchises - I'm not saying it's not a huge accomplishment. But, understand that the jobs of the majority of your employees are rather trivial in the big picture. Reserve the written warnings for real jobs.

Tip: sometimes posting general notes to all staff works quite well; depends on the tone. If you can make it sound like you're pissed, but without pointing fingers, that individual will know exactly who you're talking about. i.e. "One of the health inspectors was in for lunch the other day. He commented to me that a couple of my employees didn't have visors on when they were around food. If this had happened during an official inspection, we may have been fined. Wear them, or your uniform is going to start including hair nets."

So the story behind your handle comes forward.... makes complete sense!

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

And I've so refused to sign a few times...

"Here sign this. We're writing you up for insubordination."

"Fuck you, I ain't signing that!"

"Well you HAVE to sign it!"

"Fuck you, I'm NOT signing it and you can wipe your fat ass with it for all I care."

"Well, I'll just fire you then."

"Go ahead, I can use a few days off. Then I'll call the union hall, they'll make you reinstate me with full pay for the time I was off, and we'll be back to square one....go get my checks so I can have a fucking vacation! "
The nerve of some people...thinking that I might be insubordinate..stupid pricks.


Gawd I loved the years when construction jobs were so plentiful that you could quit one at noon and be working somewhere else the following morning...<sigh>
Those days are gone...for now...but they'll be back. (I hope)

Thank god for unions so losers like you can do a shitty job and get promoted for it. :roll:

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

And I've so refused to sign a few times...

"Here sign this. We're writing you up for insubordination."

"Fuck you, I ain't signing that!"

"Well you HAVE to sign it!"

"Fuck you, I'm NOT signing it and you can wipe your fat ass with it for all I care."

"Well, I'll just fire you then."

"Go ahead, I can use a few days off. Then I'll call the union hall, they'll make you reinstate me with full pay for the time I was off, and we'll be back to square one....go get my checks so I can have a fucking vacation! "
The nerve of some people...thinking that I might be insubordinate..stupid pricks.


Gawd I loved the years when construction jobs were so plentiful that you could quit one at noon and be working somewhere else the following morning...<sigh>
Those days are gone...for now...but they'll be back. (I hope)

Thank god for unions so losers like you can do a shitty job and get promoted for it. :roll:

Obviously reading isn't your strong suite, He said he'd go get a different job.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

And I've so refused to sign a few times...

"Here sign this. We're writing you up for insubordination."

"Fuck you, I ain't signing that!"

"Well you HAVE to sign it!"

"Fuck you, I'm NOT signing it and you can wipe your fat ass with it for all I care."

"Well, I'll just fire you then."

"Go ahead, I can use a few days off. Then I'll call the union hall, they'll make you reinstate me with full pay for the time I was off, and we'll be back to square one....go get my checks so I can have a fucking vacation! "
The nerve of some people...thinking that I might be insubordinate..stupid pricks.


Gawd I loved the years when construction jobs were so plentiful that you could quit one at noon and be working somewhere else the following morning...<sigh>
Those days are gone...for now...but they'll be back. (I hope)

Thank god for unions so losers like you can do a shitty job and get promoted for it. :roll:

Fuck you dickwad. In my union, if you don't perform, you're gone. No rocking-chair jobs for us...but :thumbsup: for the nice stereotyping...

 

[gsethi]

Originally posted by: jackace
If you have the rules posted and the employees were verbally told the rules and shown the posted rules then you are 100% in the right. You don't need the employee to sign the warning if they refuse. Just right refused on, next to, or beneath the signature line and try and get a witness to sign/initial that they were present when the employee refused. Don't know if the witness is necessary, I just know when I was assistant manager at a restaurant we always got a witness to initial/sign as part of our management policy.

Yes, rules/policies (uniform policy is clearly stated) are posted on the wall where employees sit. All employees were verbally warned back in March that any more violations of uniform policy will result in written warnings.

I did wrote "employee refused to sign" on the note with date and time of refusal (saved video recording of the incident also). Also, got 2 other employees as witnesses to write and sign their version of what they "saw" (not what I told them) when I gave the employee written warning.

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
If you need an employee to sign a paper saying he was warned. Do you also need to have him sign a paper saying he refused to sign a paper to fire him.

Well, an employee can always "claim" that he/she never got a written warning when/if they get terminated and file for unemployment. Signing is just proof for me(the employer) that the employee was given a warning (it is not that I was right or the employee was right...its just that employee got a warning and explained their side of the story in writing)

Originally posted by: Turin39789

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: Tweak155
Refusal to sign a document that states what occurred and that it was incorrect shows refusal to adapt to company policy.

I refuse to adapt to any company policy that's not in place specifically for the health and safety of employees. Most of them are arbitrary and useless.

Franchise uniforms are a different thing. When I was a uniformed employee, I always looked my best because I was the customer-facing front of the store. Customers remember clean stores and clean, well-dressed employees.

I've personally never signed a written warning, and I never will. Never had an issue with it, but then, I don't fly off the handle.



OP, why won't you just come out and state if the employee was a male or female? All this "he/she" "him/her" stuff is annoying. :\ I also think you should fire this person. If they show up monday, hand them the final written warning for insubordination and walking out, and tell them to pound sand.

finally another person who is annoyed by the he/she. We are talking about a specific person here.

My conclusion - it is a "she", and "she" was really upset because she thought her affair with the OP would get her out of the visor

LOL..you guys really come up with good ones.

Originally posted by: Squisher


I think the OP did good, except for not verbally warning the person that the refusal to sign and storming out would result in another "write up" and in the future never approach an employee that is being disciplined without another manager to serve as a witness.

The employee was verbally warned that refusal to sign would be considered "insubordination" and response was "I don't care" and "I am not going to sign anything"

 

[Storm]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Some people get highly irritated over stupid draconian bullshit that has absolutely no effect on anything whatsoever (unless we're talking about safety type uniform stuff, or something like that). If you don't like it, quit making pointless rules. If you want to make rules, accept absolutely that employees may respond that way.

Its in the service food industry. Have you ever ordered from a franchise food joint? Do you want me to take your order in the buff with my junk touching your food?

From a business standpoint, the OP has to enforce it otherwise he could get fined or lose his franchise because it doesn't meet the required standards. Who knows how much those fines are?

Now if it was more like a family owned restaurant or pizza place maybe like Dr. Pizza's then I would be totally more lenient but the OP has someone to answer to.

What would you do if you got fined lets say 10 grand if you were the franchise owner because of repeated offenses to the standards by the franchise? Pay that 10 grand and any repeated fines? Well then God Bless you.