Gave employee a written warning - employee refused to sign and walked out

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

True...but at least let me know if you are going to show up next scheduled day or not (especially since you are walking out) and there is no reason to scream or give an attitude (just say it politely)

Then why'd you keep pressing the issue of signing it?

No doubt. Honestly, if you're not going to fire someone for not signing it, then why even ask?

With every one of my current and past employers, standard procedure was to sign a written warning...and immediate termination if the offending employee refuses to do so.

 

[ric1287]

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: ric1287

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: ric1287
The whole "signing warnings" thing is stupid anyhow.

"I'm going to yell at you for doing something wrong, now please sign this waiver stating that I yelled at you"

When the employer is sued upon firing the employee, and the employee states that he was never warned or told what he was doing was wrong, the employer has proof the employee was warned.

Yeah, how stupid.

Or just keep records yourself without having people sign documents stating they suck at their job. Great morale booster

You will never be in charge of anything important.

Ah, well you're a jackass.

But anyway, keep records, make a written warning and give a copy to the employee. I'm not arguing against written warnings but against the demoralization of signing something that's explaining why you suck.

 

[IEC]

Sounds like a hothead to me.

 

[Ns1]

Sounds like you need to fire the doucher for insubordination

 

[gsethi]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

Yep. Smart guy. NEVER sign something like that if you don't agree with it.

OP - technically the guy is still employed by you.

How can you agree/disagree with an explicitly stated dress code? You are either dressed appropriately according to the dress code or you aren't.

Yep, even I can't argue with that one...

OP, do you provide the uniforms and maintain them? (wash/clean)

I've worked a couple of jobs were company uniforms were mandatory, and as long as the company paid all the costs, I was willing to wear them, but refused to do so if I was required to pay for them or pay to have them cleaned.

Yes, the employee is still employed by me and is on his/her normal schedule for next week also. Hoping that he/she will show up next week (I hate the training of new employees )

Yes, we provide uniforms for free but employees take them home and it is their responsibility to wash/clean/maintain them. If anyone wants another new uniform, they have to let me know a week in advance so that I can order them (again free for employees)

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

True...but at least let me know if you are going to show up next scheduled day or not (especially since you are walking out) and there is no reason to scream or give an attitude (just say it politely)

Then why'd you keep pressing the issue of signing it?

No doubt. Honestly, if you're not going to fire someone for not signing it, then why even ask?

With every one of my current and past employers, standard procedure was to sign a written warning...and immediate termination if the offending employee refuses to do so.

Well...the employee never gave me a chance to explain it. He/she refused to sign (started kind of yelling and giving me an attitude) and I told him/her that this might be considered insubordination. The employee just walked away (was mad) and I wasn't even finished.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

True...but at least let me know if you are going to show up next scheduled day or not (especially since you are walking out) and there is no reason to scream or give an attitude (just say it politely)

Then why'd you keep pressing the issue of signing it?

No doubt. Honestly, if you're not going to fire someone for not signing it, then why even ask?

With every one of my current and past employers, standard procedure was to sign a written warning...and immediate termination if the offending employee refuses to do so.

Whether you should sign depends on what exactly you are signing for. No way in hell I would sign something that did not indicate what my signature indicated. Does it mean I am certifying that the above comments are accurate? Does it mean I acknowledge receiving it?

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

Yep. Smart guy. NEVER sign something like that if you don't agree with it.

OP - technically the guy is still employed by you.

How can you agree/disagree with an explicitly stated dress code? You are either dressed appropriately according to the dress code or you aren't.

Yep, even I can't argue with that one...

OP, do you provide the uniforms and maintain them? (wash/clean)

I've worked a couple of jobs were company uniforms were mandatory, and as long as the company paid all the costs, I was willing to wear them, but refused to do so if I was required to pay for them or pay to have them cleaned.

Yes, the employee is still employed by me and is on his/her normal schedule for next week also. Hoping that he/she will show up next week (I hate the training of new employees )

Yes, we provide uniforms for free but employees take them home and it is their responsibility to wash/clean/maintain them. If anyone wants another new uniform, they have to let me know a week in advance so that I can order them (again free for employees)

That's fucking weak if you let the employee back.

 

[sactoking]

My advice:

Go ahead and start looking for someone new. Who cares if the person plans on showing up on Monday? If they do, fire them. I'm assuming that as a uniformed employee of a franchise, we're talking food service, which means they should be at-will. You can fire them for pretty much any non-discriminatory reason you want.

You say that they are a "Good worker, always on time." Yet you just had this incident. Why? It sounds like a personality flaw. You cannot change someone's personality, all you can do is understand it. From what you've said, I would understand it to be that the worker cannot handle criticism and cannot control their temper. You're better off without that in your business.

 

[richardycc]

is it a subway?

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: gsethi
I gave written warnings to two separate employees for the same reason. One employee signed it.

Other employee got MAD and refused to sign it (was screaming "I am not going to sign anything" with an attitude). I told him/her that it is the procedure and that employee still refused to sign it, punched out on the time machine(was getting off ~5 min later) and left in rush. I asked if he/she was going to show up on Monday (as per his/her normal schedule) and no answer.

Now I dont know if that employee will show up. Its just a warning and you were clearly in fault. Just acknowledge it and go on with work/life. It wasn't like you were going to get fired or anything. Warning was being given so that you would take this mistake seriously and would not repeat it again.

Now, that employee has 2 warnings on his/her records...one original and one for insubordination (but I dont know if he/she will ever come back)... I guess its time to hire/train a new person now (and I hate training )

EDIT: (Complete Story)
I own couple of Franchises. The warnings were for not wearing proper uniform. Uniform policy is pasted on Wall where employees can clearly see and they are always informed about it when they are hired. I wasnt taking uniforms seriously uptill starting of this year and would just give verbal warnings to them (but employees as they are...would ignore my verbal warnings).

So few months ago (IIRC, in March 08), I told everyone that I will be taking uniforms very strictly and will be giving written warnings. Immediately, everyone started coming in full proper uniform. Today, when I walked in, two employees were not in proper uniform, so both got their first warnings...and rest is already told.

Oh..i am the owner.

Wait... you disciplined your employee and they responded with a screaming fit and punching out before the official end of their shift, said employee also didn't respond when asked if if they'd be returning on Monday?

You need to get on the phone and get another person scheduled to work this employee's next 3 shifts. If he shows up on monday morning, he should be told that his outburst on friday will cost him a 3-day suspension without pay and that any further such outbursts will result in immediate termination for cause.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: gsethi


Today, when I walked in, two employees were not in proper uniform, so both got their first warnings...and rest is already told.

What exactly is not proper uniform? Are we talking military definition or what?

 

[gsethi]

Originally posted by: sactoking
My advice:

Go ahead and start looking for someone new. Who cares if the person plans on showing up on Monday? If they do, fire them. I'm assuming that as a uniformed employee of a franchise, we're talking food service, which means they should be at-will. You can fire them for pretty much any non-discriminatory reason you want.

You say that they are a "Good worker, always on time." Yet you just had this incident. Why? It sounds like a personality flaw. You cannot change someone's personality, all you can do is understand it. From what you've said, I would understand it to be that the worker cannot handle criticism and cannot control their temper. You're better off without that in your business.

That is true of this particular employee. When he/she was on training and would make any mistake, he/she would never admit his/her mistake and make an excuse.

I have already scheduled someone else for next Monday (incase this employee doesnt show up) and have started looking for a new hire (anyone looking for a job...I pay more than what CA state will be paying )

And yes, I will let the employee back b/c technically it will be his/her 2nd warning only. We terminate after 3 written warnings and dealing with CA EDD is a mess (They are employee friendly)

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: gsethi


Today, when I walked in, two employees were not in proper uniform, so both got their first warnings...and rest is already told.

What exactly is not proper uniform? Are we talking military definition or what?

Company provided T-shirt, hat/visor, apron.
Employee provided Pants/shoes.

Both employees were not wearing one of the company provided items while working (they were not on break). Their missing uniform items were lying in the back room and their excuse was "we forgot". This is after the Manager told both of them to wear it when he showed up. The other employee just said sorry, signed the warning and was fine with it (he admitted it was his fault and admitted that the manager informed both of them that they were not wearing proper uniform earlier).

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: sactoking
My advice:

Go ahead and start looking for someone new. Who cares if the person plans on showing up on Monday? If they do, fire them. I'm assuming that as a uniformed employee of a franchise, we're talking food service, which means they should be at-will. You can fire them for pretty much any non-discriminatory reason you want.

You say that they are a "Good worker, always on time." Yet you just had this incident. Why? It sounds like a personality flaw. You cannot change someone's personality, all you can do is understand it. From what you've said, I would understand it to be that the worker cannot handle criticism and cannot control their temper. You're better off without that in your business.

That is true of this particular employee. When he/she was on training and would make any mistake, he/she would never admit his/her mistake and make an excuse.

I have already scheduled someone else for next Monday (incase this employee doesnt show up) and have started looking for a new hire (anyone looking for a job...I pay more than what CA state will be paying )

And yes, I will let the employee back b/c technically it will be his/her 2nd warning only. We terminate after 3 written warnings and dealing with CA EDD is a mess (They are employee friendly)

You already have two warnings. Give a third for storming out of the office / leaving early without permission and be done with it.

 

[sygyzy]

It must suck to run a business where you are at the mercy of an employee who may or may not come in to work.

 

[gsethi]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: sactoking
My advice:

Go ahead and start looking for someone new. Who cares if the person plans on showing up on Monday? If they do, fire them. I'm assuming that as a uniformed employee of a franchise, we're talking food service, which means they should be at-will. You can fire them for pretty much any non-discriminatory reason you want.

You say that they are a "Good worker, always on time." Yet you just had this incident. Why? It sounds like a personality flaw. You cannot change someone's personality, all you can do is understand it. From what you've said, I would understand it to be that the worker cannot handle criticism and cannot control their temper. You're better off without that in your business.

That is true of this particular employee. When he/she was on training and would make any mistake, he/she would never admit his/her mistake and make an excuse.

I have already scheduled someone else for next Monday (incase this employee doesnt show up) and have started looking for a new hire (anyone looking for a job...I pay more than what CA state will be paying )

And yes, I will let the employee back b/c technically it will be his/her 2nd warning only. We terminate after 3 written warnings and dealing with CA EDD is a mess (They are employee friendly)

You already have two warnings. Give a third for storming out of the office / leaving early without permission and be done with it.

LOL..thanks..didnt think about it. First, I need to make alternate arrangements for next week to see if others can cover the shift

 

[Legendary]

Grow some stones OP.

 

[imported_Baloo]

Are these uniforms crappy and demeaning?

 

[gsethi]

Originally posted by: sygyzy
It must suck to run a business where you are at the mercy of an employee who may or may not come in to work.

Yes, sometimes it does.

Originally posted by: Legendary
Grow some stones OP.

LOL...you have to look at the legal aspect of it also. I dont want to deal with CA EDD (incase this employee decides to file for UI later on...lol).

Originally posted by: Baloo
Are these uniforms crappy and demeaning?

LOL..nope...they look pretty nice.

 

[ElFenix]

someone didn't wear the requisite number of flair

 

[PowerEngineer]

Instituting a procedure for so-called "positive discipline" is a good idea, given the real possibility that some disgruntled employee you fire could claim that it was for reasons other than work performance.

Employee understanding and acceptance of the "positive discipline" procedure should be clearly made a condition of employment. If you aren't willing to sign a paper acknowledging the warning (with room for your comment), then you need to work somewhere else.

If your wayward employee isn't immediately and contritely willing to make amneds on Monday -- and sign the warning -- then you should immediately let him go.

Good luck!

 

[Tweak155]

Sounds legit to me.

You need documentation that this was completed. If the employee doesn't sign it then it is hearsay as to whether or not any discipline or warning was given.

Refusal to sign a document that states what occurred and that it was incorrect shows refusal to adapt to company policy. Not signing a document AGREEING to what was PREVIOUSLY agreed to when the employee first started working there (assumption, I know) is the same as not wanting the job and is a consented resignation.

 

[TehMac]

I think if the employee was not following the rules, then you should invite them to work somewhere else.

 

[RbSX]

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: gsethi

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

True...but at least let me know if you are going to show up next scheduled day or not (especially since you are walking out) and there is no reason to scream or give an attitude (just say it politely)

Then why'd you keep pressing the issue of signing it?

I didnt. Just told the employee that he/she is getting a warning. Employee was almost screaming at me "I am not going to sign anything" and "this is a small matter". I told the employee that it doesnt matter but then he/she just walked out on me while I was talking with him/her. No answer as to if he/she was going to show up next scheduled day (which is Monday morning)

Originally posted by: moshquerade
dismiss employee for insubordination?

Not yet, Good worker, always on time. No problems with the employee but who knows...

Originally posted by: astroidea

Originally posted by: ric1287
The whole "signing warnings" thing is stupid anyhow.

"I'm going to yell at you for doing something wrong, now please sign this waiver stating that I yelled at you"

it's a legal thing.
companies usually file these warnings under employee records.
if the employee is fired, and happens to sue for some kind of illegetimate termination, then the company has evidence to defend itself.

Exactly. Just follow company policy which clearly state that if not wearing proper uniform, you will be given written warnings. I have already saved a copy of the surveillance of the employee walking out etc.

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: minendo
The employee has the right to refuse to sign it.

Yep. Smart guy. NEVER sign something like that if you don't agree with it.

Signing the warning is not admission of wrong doing. It clearly states that you are signing that you are receiving a warning (just like a traffic ticket). It has room for employee's remarks where they can tell their story.

If it isn't an admission of wrong doing, whats the point of signing it? Especially if you contest it.

It really comes off as an admission of guilt.

If you want witnesses of the instances to cite if they person charges a wrongful termination suit, get witnesses to sign an affidavit.

 

[GasX]

Not enough pieces of flair?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Tweak155
Sounds legit to me.

You need documentation that this was completed. If the employee doesn't sign it then it is hearsay as to whether or not any discipline or warning was given.

Refusal to sign a document that states what occurred and that it was incorrect shows refusal to adapt to company policy. Not signing a document AGREEING to what was PREVIOUSLY agreed to when the employee first started working there (assumption, I know) is the same as not wanting the job and is a consented resignation.

True.

But it does force them to continue paying you while you go find another job and after that you can collect unemployment. The bad employee (if they know how to play the game) would show up as scheduled with a letter of hostile work environment from their attorney and demand OP sign it. Stalemate.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying if you know you're gonna get canned or don't agree to what you're signing don't sign squat.